Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

Wuatduhf · 2019-06-07 12:30:27

This is more a preemptive concern over incoming changes to OHOL than a currently-existing problem for the game.

As everyone that's played even a dozen lives of OHOL knows, not every mother is willing to take on a new baby. Some are far from town and don't want to deal with the hassle of guiding their baby (and a horse sometimes!) back to Town fire. Others just don't want to let the baby in because they don't have the resources to give to the baby immediately. Even more just don't care or pay attention to the child's existence. You get the picture.

A while back, Jason approached the idea of pregnancy as a life-preview function to give mothers a precursor to an impending child, along with giving the soon-to-be child time to gauge their surroundings before they SID.

So that everyone's on the same page for what I'm talking about here, quote Jason:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Your mom is pregnant for 45 seconds, and you ride with her, watching her, but you can't DIE or anything. Maybe your view of the situation grows over time (a black shroud that shrinks back). Then you are born, and the game continues as normal, and you can run away, be abandoned, starve, etc.
This might be the perfect amount of investment per life, and not totally boring. You start paying attention to your mother's story. It would undercut the instant-screaming-baby hilarity...
I'd like to show a big stomach during pregnancy.... but it's really hard to make it look good with clothes. If I just did it the simplest way, it would stick out from behind clothing, which would look pretty weird... though maybe not? I dunno, I'd have to make some mock-ups and see.

See the full quote here: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 340#p57340

Personally, I believe that the new Life Tokens are going to fix the SIDs issue very significantly, which is good. The downside is it's going to severely hurt players who die to unfortunate circumstances such as the ones listed above, which are not that uncommon. I believe it's to Jason's imperative to consider getting the Pregnancy feature working before the Life Tokens hit the server, so that moms have a better chance to prepare their child, and so that children have a better gauge of their town before they use their hourly Life Token.

Comments as always appreciated.

Last edited by Wuatduhf (2019-06-07 12:32:08)

Jaona · 2019-06-07 14:32:35

I fully agree Wuat, we are gonna need the preview together with the tokens. Otherwise even those that are good at the game and live most of their lives to the old age are gonna lose their tokens a lot faster than they would like.

No one wants to be born:
- to an AFK mom
- to a mom that's on a mission far far away from town
- in the middle of a town massacre/war zone
- as a boy in to a town that doesn't have any fertile women

I know that Jason likes the randomness of being born into a bad situation, but wasting the small amount of tokens you get on these bad situations is not gonna be well received by most people.

pein · 2019-06-07 15:36:59

i think you should both be immobile for a few seconds during birth then if they don't even pick you up cost no token
if they do then you lose it

it could be still abusedy by moms, but not the babies

the distance between you could be tracked like who goes which direction, or some abandonment command

i eman if you die normalyl in those situations you don't need to lose many tokens like 1 each and 5 for suicide so a good solution would be tokens to be enough for normal deaths but not enough for 3 suicides in a row

Spoonwood · 2019-06-07 16:00:46

You raise a valid concern.

From talking to Tarr on the forums and scanning the code a little myself (not very well mind you... so don't take my word as gospel here), it looks like you'll start with 24 life tokens. Anytime you start the game you lose one (the server buys your life token by you logging I think works as a conceptual metaphor). You gain a life token back every real life hour (3600 seconds) if you have less than 12 life tokens (there's a life token cap of 12).

I have to wonder if a life choice screen is not. If not, the people using /die repeatedly might do so without realizing the change, and then will get locked out. I think the one thing we can say about those people for sure is that they are persistent. So if enough of them get locked out, I wouldn't be surprised if this thing turns rather ugly. Then again, if a life choice screen is coming AND it's good enough, that things turn ugly seems significantly less likely to me.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-06-07 16:02:00)

Tarr · 2019-06-07 16:12:27

If you haven't peeked into the github here's the bit of code to show it off.

$startingLifeTokens = 24;
$lifeTokenCap = 12;
$secondsPerTokenEarned = 3600;

I think a cap of 12 is mostly fine since you'll always earn another one within a real hour. The only time it's bad is if you're running into constant trolls which hopefully shouldn't be happening. Of course, there is situations where you'll just lose a token (mom in the wilderness on horse, mom turns old and doesn't speak baby, trolls) but as long as you aren't completely spamming /die you'll be fine.

My concern does come from people trying to /die to Eve as depending on how many people try to do so at any given time it's possible there are more lineages than you can have maximum tokens (which of course leads to you blowing your entire stock of tokens and failing to get an Eve life.) Of course there's the issue where you just can't play the game if you don't have any tokens so if you do blow them all willy nilly you have to wait to play. I think the system is worth a shot and should at the very least decrease the sids problem on some level as you can't /die forever.

Spoonwood · 2019-06-07 16:40:17

Wuatduhf wrote:

As everyone that's played even a dozen lives of OHOL knows, not every mother is willing to take on a new baby. Some are far from town and don't want to deal with the hassle of guiding their baby (and a horse sometimes!) back to Town fire. Others just don't want to let the baby in because they don't have the resources to give to the baby immediately. Even more just don't care or pay attention to the child's existence. You get the picture.

This new system is like saying this in a way, at least for some people:

Punish the children for the misdeeds of their parents.

This isn't encouraging better or more parenting, it isn't about civilization building, it isn't about survival in game. It's not about cooperation in game, but instead forcing people to quit who want more choice/use sudden infant death for some other unknown reason... not in terms of how it works (no life tokens and you are locked out). I do NOT see how it follows core game concepts.

And it might backfire.

I don't think it's worth a shot.

Dodge · 2019-06-07 16:55:45

Spoonwood wrote:

Wuatduhf wrote:
As everyone that's played even a dozen lives of OHOL knows, not every mother is willing to take on a new baby. Some are far from town and don't want to deal with the hassle of guiding their baby (and a horse sometimes!) back to Town fire. Others just don't want to let the baby in because they don't have the resources to give to the baby immediately. Even more just don't care or pay attention to the child's existence. You get the picture.
This new system is like saying this in a way, at least for some people:
Punish the children for the misdeeds of their parents.
This isn't encouraging better or more parenting, it isn't about civilization building, it isn't about survival in game. It's not about cooperation in game, but instead forcing people to quit who want more choice/use sudden infant death for some other unknown reason... not in terms of how it works (no life tokens and you are locked out). I do NOT see how it follows core game concepts.
And it might backfire.
I don't think it's worth a shot.

If lives are limited they are also more precious so of course it encourages better parenting, because you will think twice before abandonning a baby...

"I do NOT see how it follows core game concepts."

It's literally the core concept in the title of the game "One Hour One Life"...

Wuatduhf · 2019-06-07 17:01:43

"One Hour 37 SIDs" is a bigger problem than "One Minute One Bad Parent" right now. This game has bad parents but you aren't changing that with or without the Life Tokens.

Let's bring this thread back on its rails; parents are the partial negative consequence of implementing Life Token, and while it may have some impact to tokens, it's not going to completely shut people out. The problem is that babies still pop out unexpectedly and with no warning, so the Pregnancy system should be implemented hand-in-hand with the Life Tokens so that a larger # of competent moms can adequately prepare for their children.

Tarr · 2019-06-07 17:04:49

Dodge wrote:

[If lives are limited they are also more precious so of course it encourages better parenting, because you will think twice before abandonning a baby...
"I do NOT see how it follows core game concepts."
It's literally the core concept in the title of the game "One Hour One Life"...

I think the bad mother code does a better job at making children precious than giving players life tokens as generally speaking babies aren't valuable and you aren't the one getting punished for dumping kids. Blocking players from having kids if three of their babies die (not counting sids at the moment) is both a punishment for bad moms and prevents the mother from screwing over more babies. While I do think the change is overall good I do think some of the punishment should be redirected towards bad moms especially with the ability to get their birth cooldown back instantly to hose more children if they want.

Wuatduhf wrote:

"One Hour 37 SIDs" is a bigger problem than "One Minute One Bad Parent" right now. This game has bad parents but you aren't changing that with or without the Life Tokens.

Let's bring this thread back on its rails; parents are the partial negative consequence of implementing Life Token, and while it may have some impact to tokens, it's not going to completely shut people out. The problem is that babies still pop out unexpectedly and with no warning, so the Pregnancy system should be implemented hand-in-hand with the Life Tokens so that a larger # of competent moms can adequately prepare for their children.

You're right, there probably should be some sort of basic warning system in place because most players aren't going to sit around camp just because they "might" have a baby soon. Having a sort of heads up that you're going to be popping out a baby soon means you can either decide to hold off on leaving to work or that you should be turning around and going back home.

Last edited by Tarr (2019-06-07 17:07:14)

Spoonwood · 2019-06-07 18:15:29

Dodge wrote:

If lives are limited they are also more precious so of course it encourages better parenting, because you will think twice before abandonning a baby...

That assumes that people will understand the new system. Enough people don't read the forums of dev-changes. Also, no, it doesn't mean that people will think twice before abandoning a baby. Plenty of people don't play the game to help other people. Griefers exist. Additionally, babies can die for other reasons which aren't griefing due to the mom disconnecting, or the mom dying to a wild animal or the mom getting stabbed for just or unjust reasons. Or because of some griefer who stabs babies. Or because of baby-snatching by a pedo (a man taking a baby out of camp).

Dodge wrote:

"I do NOT see how it follows core game concepts."
It's literally the core concept in the title of the game "One Hour One Life"...

No. Literally speaking it would be "One Hour One Token". Additionally, it's always been possible to die in an hour. So, "One Hour One Life" can't refer to the actuality of something. It's more like "in the scope of one hour you have the POSSIBILITY of one life", but that's too prolix... so "One Hour One Life".

I mean Jason said in a thread that he died at 58 (it's the 'late game is really good' now one where he talks about a water shortage and how he tried to get an oil rig wet to save a town). It's easy enough to suppose that he could have hit the login button again. Would he then not be playing OHOL because within one hour he could have more than one life? Nope. Thus, 'one hour one life' can only refer to the possibility of within the scope of an hour having only one life.

Left4twenty · 2019-06-07 18:17:18

My concern? I didnt buy a video game. I bought a key for server access. Now the parameters of that access are changing? Poor form.

Spoonwood · 2019-06-07 18:19:27

I agree with Left4twenty.

Dodge · 2019-06-07 18:36:32

Spoonwood wrote:

Dodge wrote:
If lives are limited they are also more precious so of course it encourages better parenting, because you will think twice before abandonning a baby...
That assumes that people will understand the new system. Enough people don't read the forums of dev-changes. Also, no, it doesn't mean that people will think twice before abandoning a baby. Plenty of people don't play the game to help other people. Griefers exist. Additionally, babies can die for other reasons which aren't griefing due to the mom disconnecting, or the mom dying to a wild animal or the mom getting stabbed for just or unjust reasons. Or because of some griefer who stabs babies. Or because of baby-snatching by a pedo (a man taking a baby out of camp).
Dodge wrote:
"I do NOT see how it follows core game concepts."
It's literally the core concept in the title of the game "One Hour One Life"...
No. Literally speaking it would be "One Hour One Token". Additionally, it's always been possible to die in an hour. So, "One Hour One Life" can't refer to the actuality of something. It's more like "in the scope of one hour you have the POSSIBILITY of one life", but that's too prolix... so "One Hour One Life".
I mean Jason said in a thread that he died at 58 (it's the 'late game is really good' now one where he talks about a water shortage and how he tried to get an oil rig wet to save a town). It's easy enough to suppose that he could have hit the login button again. Would he then not be playing OHOL because within one hour he could have more than one life? Nope. Thus, 'one hour one life' can only refer to the possibility of within the scope of an hour having only one life.

it's really basic common sense if lives are limitless then they also have less value then if they are limited, so you think twice about your choices instead of not giving a shit.

How do you not understand that?

"Literally speaking it would be "One Hour One Token""

I was talking about the concept not the state of what it is or will be.

" It's easy enough to suppose that he could have hit the login button again. Would he then not be playing OHOL because within one hour he could have more than one life? Nope. Thus, 'one hour one life' can only refer to the possibility of within the scope of an hour having only one life."

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 152#p52152

Spoonwood · 2019-06-07 19:07:08

Dodge wrote:

it's really basic common sense if lives are limitless then they also have less value then if they are limited, so you think twice about your choices instead of not giving a shit.

It's not common sense unless it's common. So I don't think your method for discerning common sense here is all that great. I don't understand that, because I have no idea of what people think in general here in the context of a game.

Dodge wrote:

"Literally speaking it would be "One Hour One Token""
I was talking about the concept not the state of what it is or will be.

I don't think that's the concept. Like I'm not going to sit here and say that Jason's play falls outside of the OHOL concept or that almost everyone who has played the game falls outside of that concept. And for the record, there's video evidence of Jason playing more than one life in one hour from a very long time ago... not even 5 minutes of the video are needed to figure that out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCkS_F_Jyu0&t=5132s Was he not playing withing the OHOL concept? I just don't agree that he wasn't. So, I think the OHOL concept just has to be that if you're not an Eve (or possibly Adam), then within the scope of one hour you can live one life without quitting or dying in the game.

Carrot-Seedling · 2019-06-08 02:12:50

Left4twenty wrote:

My concern? I didnt buy a video game. I bought a key for server access. Now the parameters of that access are changing? Poor form.

This is one of many problems. Jason, please listen to your players, all this no suggesting nonsense is bad for the game.

WalrusesConquer · 2019-06-08 05:04:53

Another problem is that unless you specifically look for the "news" section, or "live changes" in discord than there is no way of knowing in the game. If we could have a what's new screen that may help? So all players know what it adds.

Spoonwood · 2019-06-08 16:37:35

I hadn't realized that a 'lives left' indicator will appear on the re-birth screen:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Added lives left to rebirth choice page.

But will the number of logins left appear in the screen if one quits the app and then reloads it?

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-06-07 12:30:27

Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

#2 2019-06-07 14:32:35

Re: Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

#3 2019-06-07 15:36:59

Re: Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

#4 2019-06-07 16:00:46

Re: Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

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Re: Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

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Re: Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

#7 2019-06-07 16:55:45

Re: Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

#8 2019-06-07 17:01:43

Re: Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

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Re: Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

#10 2019-06-07 18:15:29

Re: Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

#11 2019-06-07 18:17:18

Re: Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

#12 2019-06-07 18:19:27

Re: Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

#13 2019-06-07 18:36:32

Re: Concerns over Life Tokens w/o Pregnancy

#14 2019-06-07 19:07:08

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