Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

Spoonwood · 2019-06-07 04:26:37

The new way of making a basket has been criticized as not being very efficient. Frankly, I find it a bit baffling as to why thread plus wheat OR thread plus a reed bundle would make a basket. Some people have thought that it was Jason's way of responding to people clamoring for wheat messes not to arise. But, I'm not sure that's it.

To review:

The simplest process to make a basket is to combine two harvested tule reeds. It just requires a sharp stone and tule reeds.

The next simplest way of making a basket lies in two wheat getting threshed with a branch to make straw and then combining them to make a basket. The wheat could have gotten growned, so such a basket could make for a sign of an established town, or it might not.

The most complicated way of making a basket involves farming two milkweed and using one grown wheat along with a branch to make a basket. Since it involves the most grown crops, one might argue that it's the most civilized way of making a basket. This strikes me as somewhat similar to the loom clothing update, where many of the new clothes were NOT the most insulating clothing for the part of the body involved (even though they didn't decay), which threw into question their value. Except though I can see a good argument for making loom clothing for different reasons, I'm not able to come up with much of an argument for why it would be beneficial for a society to make baskets from milkweed in the way that I indicated above. But Jason clearly put into the game. Jason from my read and others fashions himself an artist. So is this some sort of social commentary on how the most civilized way of doing things might not be all that great in comparison to some other less civilized way of doing things?

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-20 07:47:11)

Erudaru · 2019-06-07 04:56:00

I believe and hope that the civilized, ineffective stuff like the clothing will at some point be accompanied with other tech to make more sense; we will have more and better buildings, better sources of heat which then will require you to not be all that insulated when you live in the city(?)

As for the baskets, you can use a ball of thread instead of precious milkweed.

Valareos · 2019-06-07 05:01:32

Erudaru wrote:

As for the baskets, you can use a ball of thread instead of precious milkweed.

This, I believe is the crux of the argument. I can see making baskets with straw or reed and thread.

But the Wheat + needle and ball of Thread means you can use renewable resources in your own village to make your baskets with. Everyone has needles and ball of thread by a certain time as it is much easier than maintaining the milkweed (though when you just need a THREAD and not a needle and thread it is a pain to find in post milkweed civilizations)

Spoonwood · 2019-06-07 05:32:54

Erudaru wrote:

I believe and hope that the civilized, ineffective stuff like the clothing will at some point be accompanied with other tech to make more sense; we will have more and better buildings, better sources of heat which then will require you to not be all that insulated when you live in the city(?)
As for the baskets, you can use a ball of thread instead of precious milkweed.

Thanks. I didn't know that!

CatX · 2019-06-07 09:53:54

I don't think needle and thread works to create slot boxes. /sad

sigmen4020 · 2019-06-07 10:30:42

Valareos wrote:

Erudaru wrote:
As for the baskets, you can use a ball of thread instead of precious milkweed.
This, I believe is the crux of the argument. I can see making baskets with straw or reed and thread.
But the Wheat + needle and ball of Thread means you can use renewable resources in your own village to make your baskets with. Everyone has needles and ball of thread by a certain time as it is much easier than maintaining the milkweed (though when you just need a THREAD and not a needle and thread it is a pain to find in post milkweed civilizations)

Unless baskets are changed to be made from the entire sheaf instead of just straw, there’d be an overlap with the straw hat.

futurebird · 2019-06-07 10:38:23

CatX wrote:

I don't think needle and thread works to create slot boxes. /sad

Super /sad

mrbah · 2019-06-07 10:40:05

does the engine allow for categories ensuring that every item with the "thread" tag can be used to produce a specific item?

testo · 2019-06-07 13:27:03

Erudaru wrote:

I believe and hope that the civilized, ineffective stuff like the clothing will at some point be accompanied with other tech to make more sense; we will have more and better buildings, better sources of heat which then will require you to not be all that insulated when you live in the city(?)
As for the baskets, you can use a ball of thread instead of precious milkweed.

??? ball of thread instead of milkweed for baskets? Does that actually work?

pein · 2019-06-07 14:20:55

jason has a very bad opinion on modern world which why we got shittier options in the game

personally i would like to see some linear tech tree and different problems rather than same problems all the time

milkweed is all around in early camps and a waste to grow
and it's a requirement to grow it to use up the wheat and compost
itss a solution just not a good one, cost a lot on hoe, and on time

i would prefer something like one time investment flower pots then you could grow milkweed cheaper

Spoonwood · 2019-06-07 15:34:09

Erudaru wrote:

As for the baskets, you can use a ball of thread instead of precious milkweed.

testo wrote:

??? ball of thread instead of milkweed for baskets? Does that actually work?

mrbah wrote:

does the engine allow for categories ensuring that every item with the "thread" tag can be used to produce a specific item?

I haven't tested a ball of thread myself, and don't know.

Erudaru only says ball of thread. I'd think sigmen correct. Did Valareos forget/not know that a "ball of thread" differs from a "needle and a ball of thread"? I know I used needle and thread (from milkweed) to make a straw hat last night.

pein · 2019-06-07 15:39:33

no need needle, and not made from fleece, regular milkweed threads

Jk Howling · 2019-06-07 18:31:06

Erudaru wrote:

As for the baskets, you can use a ball of thread instead of precious milkweed.

Actually, it was confirmed 100% that you CAN'T use a ball of thread for this. This was made aware to the community before the update even fully rolled out, and Jason knows about it.

He did this intentionally because he genuinely does not understand the value and necessity of milkweed. Nor does he understand why it's a complete waste of milkweed, when you can make a box + a basket for the same amount of milkweed/grain clutter that you can make 2 baskets with.

His response to people complaining and agreeing that this method is a shitty solution that really does nothing for the issue he aimed to solve, and that it's a waste of valuable resources was literally:

jasonrohrer wrote:

You guys can grow milkweed. As much as you want. It has no side-effects.
The complaint with straw was that it produced wheat, right? Right?

But yeah. Only uses milkweed thread [note: no needle, just the thread.] Can't use a ball of thread. Because why would we be able to do that XD

Check onetech for confirmation.

Last edited by Jk Howling (2019-06-07 18:37:36)

testo · 2019-06-07 18:35:37

Spoonwood wrote:

Erudaru wrote:
As for the baskets, you can use a ball of thread instead of precious milkweed.
testo wrote:
??? ball of thread instead of milkweed for baskets? Does that actually work?
mrbah wrote:
does the engine allow for categories ensuring that every item with the "thread" tag can be used to produce a specific item?
I haven't tested a ball of thread myself, and don't know.
Erudaru only says ball of thread. I'd think sigmen correct. Did Valareos forget/not know that a "ball of thread" differs from a "needle and a ball of thread"? I know I used needle and thread (from milkweed) to make a straw hat last night.

Almost 100% sure ball of thread does nothing on a)straw b)reed bundle.

lychee · 2019-06-07 18:36:22

mrbah wrote:

does the engine allow for categories ensuring that every item with the "thread" tag can be used to produce a specific item?

Yes the engine does support categories

Erudaru · 2019-06-07 18:48:00

testo wrote:

Erudaru wrote:
I believe and hope that the civilized, ineffective stuff like the clothing will at some point be accompanied with other tech to make more sense; we will have more and better buildings, better sources of heat which then will require you to not be all that insulated when you live in the city(?)
As for the baskets, you can use a ball of thread instead of precious milkweed.
??? ball of thread instead of milkweed for baskets? Does that actually work?

Whoops, just checked. I thought you'd use the thread with a needle on the reed but no, it's a regular thread without needle so sorry for the misinformation.

Spoonwood · 2019-06-07 19:16:40

Jk Howling wrote:

Actually, it was confirmed 100% that you CAN'T use a ball of thread for this. This was made aware to the community before the update even fully rolled out, and Jason knows about it.
He did this intentionally because he genuinely does not understand the value and necessity of milkweed. Nor does he understand why it's a complete waste of milkweed, when you can make a box + a basket for the same amount of milkweed/grain clutter that you can make 2 baskets with.

I think I remember hearing this sort of perspective on Jason before. I'm not saying it's wrong. I just didn't make this post with that perspective in mind. You may well be right.

And for sure, milkweed is as valuable and necessary as you say.

Edit: I do appreciate you making this comment here.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-06-07 19:29:38)

BladeWoods · 2019-06-07 20:08:31

Jason did it so less threshed wheat would be produced because a couple people wouldn't stop complaining about all the threshed wheat. He has no idea or didn't put any thought into the value and balance of resources for straw + thread vs straw + straw and it's certainly no social commentary or artistic vision for a much more expensive version of a recipe that no one should ever make to exist.

And idk why so concerned about over-wheat production but not concerned about over-straw production when he got rid of straw decaying.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-06-07 20:11:58)

testo · 2019-06-07 21:02:26

BladeWoods wrote:

Jason did it so less threshed wheat would be produced because a couple people wouldn't stop complaining about all the threshed wheat. He has no idea or didn't put any thought into the value and balance of resources for straw + thread vs straw + straw and it's certainly no social commentary or artistic vision for a much more expensive version of a recipe that no one should ever make to exist.
And idk why so concerned about over-wheat production but not concerned about over-straw production when he got rid of straw decaying.

Because straw is always turned into compost. This has been discussed many times, grain is overproduced because wheat is farmed for straw over grain.

pein · 2019-06-07 21:14:48

it's a shit thing to do considering you can do a rope with a cost of 2 baskets with 2 threads
and he said he wont do "don't do that" things this is exactly same as don't do this or don't do that at start of the game where unintentionally you could ruin half camp

Valareos · 2019-06-07 21:39:07

I confess I had thought you could use needle and thread on the straw to make basket, and didnt bother double checking myself. Sorry

Potjeh · 2019-06-07 21:45:52

If that was the case it'd be actual useful content, and we can't have that.

Jk Howling · 2019-06-07 22:14:36

Potjeh wrote:

If that was the case it'd be actual useful content, and we can't have that.

Nah actual useful content would be something to store grain in like literally everyone wanted and had s*ggested [barrel, grain sack, silo, grain piles.. something].

Instead we get a shitty noob-trap recipe because "b-but the problem was g-grain clutter r-right??? RIGHT?!!1?"

But don't take that from me. I'm not a game developer with 15+ years of experience so what do I know.

CatX · 2019-06-07 22:36:21

Milkweed farming feels like grinding.
And it's sort of meaningless grinding, because we're not building skill, we're building towns that vanish in the next apocalypse.

Carrot farming feels different, because after all your work, when you take that carrot and use it for whatever you needed it for, there are still a pile of carrots left.
But milkweed is spent just like that. No evidence of your hard work other than a small stump.
(And then someone whisks it away before your eyes.)

Just some Friday night rambling...

Raising my glass and wishing for a less grindy OHOL future. Cheers!

Saolin · 2019-06-08 06:38:19

I still don't get why people were complaining about grain clutter, just take that to the bakery. there's usually supplies to make pies, and if not, bread is a decent option. I'm always annoyed when no one made bread to extend my yum-chain. I've never had a problem where grain got in the way.

Milkweed on the other hand? I've started scouting my towns for milkweed, and if we don't have at least 6-8 going i'm looking to plant that asap, and if we don't have seed i'm looking to make sure we get at least one bowl of seed. I can plant 8 of those and it just vanishes without me using any of them, hopefully able to be resurrected with immediate attention to plant some more since the seed disappears so quickly.

Perhaps if the leftover plant material from milkweed deteriorated more quickly/immediately so it could be replanted less awkwardly, and the seeds lasted longer? (it feels like they're the quickest seeds to deteriorate)

On a semi-related note, I love the slot-boxes. I think people have tended to ignore the fact you still have to pay for the 4 baskets with resources in order to make a normal box better vs 1 thread and a saw use. Obviously it's way more convenient to use also.

Last edited by Saolin (2019-06-08 06:50:57)

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#1 2019-06-07 04:26:37

Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#2 2019-06-07 04:56:00

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#3 2019-06-07 05:01:32

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#4 2019-06-07 05:32:54

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#5 2019-06-07 09:53:54

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#6 2019-06-07 10:30:42

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#7 2019-06-07 10:38:23

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#8 2019-06-07 10:40:05

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#9 2019-06-07 13:27:03

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#10 2019-06-07 14:20:55

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#11 2019-06-07 15:34:09

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#12 2019-06-07 15:39:33

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#13 2019-06-07 18:31:06

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#14 2019-06-07 18:35:37

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#15 2019-06-07 18:36:22

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#16 2019-06-07 18:48:00

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#17 2019-06-07 19:16:40

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#18 2019-06-07 20:08:31

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#19 2019-06-07 21:02:26

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#20 2019-06-07 21:14:48

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#21 2019-06-07 21:39:07

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#22 2019-06-07 21:45:52

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#23 2019-06-07 22:14:36

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#24 2019-06-07 22:36:21

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

#25 2019-06-08 06:38:19

Re: Are Some Baskets More Civilized Than Others Or Something?

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