irrelevant updates/content being made new/better

SavageOgre · 2019-05-28 01:22:36

Has anybody EVER seen a wooden house in game? I know I haven't, only in the tutorial, If Jason would make them super cheap to build, like stacking wooden planks together and using something to bind them, or doing the same with logs, then I would be fine with the non ideal insulation if they were actually cheap to build. all people use is adobe/stone walls, and I would argue that a stone wall should be harder to construct than a wooden one, but its 10x and fast/cheap to make stone buildings than wood.

how about making the walls only require the same recipe, but only a single rope to create, and you come out with 3 or 4 walls, and down the road you can put a piece of adobe on it to create an adobe wall (wattle and daub)

I make this post because we all know there have been some failed updates, the dog update, and the cart update come to mind, and last week Jason attempted to make the cart a more viable tool by making it cheaper, and yesterday I saw the first track kits in a town I have seen in months.

Jason you should keep trying to do this, while innovating on your game, revisit the dogs/ maybe allow breeding of dogs breeds that would work as hunting dogs (get them on a leash and they will near instantly pull rabbits out of holes, making it much quicker and efficient then using snares), allow people to name dogs so they become more personal to the village, and do something about the pitbulls too because they are really nothing but a source of grief.

but back to the wooden house thing, I would love to see more villages making more buildings, and you can hopefully understand how completely unviable to milkweed cost of making a wooden house is right now, so why don't you revisit it? I'm sure we would all appreciate it.

futurebird · 2019-05-28 01:29:12

Another reason people don't use pine walls is because you can chop the walls down with an Ax. Every town has and ax and it's just too easy. You can't chop the bellows or the firebow or even a regular bow with an ax, but pine walls are fragile AND expensive.

It's a pity, they look really nice.

What if you could move a pine wall by digging it with a shovel? So they are easy to move around and in the early days towns could move the walls around then... when things get settled you'd add the adobe and get something that lasts longer.

Pine walls should decay rather quickly and either use much less rope (fewer than one per wall) or not use rope at all.

You could use an ax or flint on two long branches stacked together and get a wall frame, then add pine needles to the frame to get a pine wall. Then place with steaks as you do now. It will decay (to one kindling) in like 90 min... unless you add adobe to make it last.

Use a shovel to unbind it from the ground and move 'em around. Plan your town!

Tarr · 2019-05-28 01:43:18

Yeah it'd be nice for him to occasionally revisit content that is either dead/bad/both and try to give it a little love. I was surprised to learn the guys over at You Are Hope decided to make pork usable before Jason did along with another cute egg recipe.

Pine walls are just a relic of the past when milkweed regrew so it was feasible to actually make a building out of pine walls and what not.

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-28 02:23:17

I don't think pine walls were ever used by anyone, ever, milkweed or not!

The thing is, I've made those pine panels in real life, and it's a ton of work.

There's an aspect of this game that is a "real maker aesthetic," and I've kept that going for most things. Track kits are a recent exception, along with property fences.

Obviously, the real maker aesthetic is cool and unique (no other game has 25 steps to make a fire, and the same steps translate exactly to real-world fire-making).

But just as obviously, a realistic making aesthetic is long-term tedious when you want to get down to business and play the damn game.

So I'm torn on stuff like this. Would be nice to make a stack of pine panels after making one, and set up structures throughout the village quickly.

Also, the "adobify" suggestion is a great one.

Maybe they could be very easy to move to make ad-hoc, temporary structures?

Baker · 2019-05-28 02:52:57

+1

The trailer implies you're meant to build pine huts pretty early on and buildup a village from there. But in reality, buildings are so hard that most towns only do one proper one, even with all the benefits to buildings now.

Psykout · 2019-05-28 02:55:55

I would love to see more bootstap into permanent features of the game. Kind of like how you can look at an adobe oven base pen, and use half their work and convert it into an adobe wall, and then someone else can then finish it into a plaster wall. I understand you want to keep some real maker feel to the game, and it does feel nice at first, but then quickly becomes tedious and obsolete. I think what feels missing is, cheap non lasting materials that can either fade away or be improved. Kind of like how for simple construction you use cheap, fast growing light woods versus hardwoods or concrete/stone.

mikeyreza · 2019-05-28 03:04:03

jasonrohrer wrote:

There's an aspect of this game that is a "real maker aesthetic," and I've kept that going for most things

(talking about pinewood panels)
I understand and like this real maker aesthetic, but I feel like this is taken to the extreme. I understand making things like engines, airplanes, etc. difficult because those are very powerful and nice to have, but 20 milkweed just for a single panel which has the worst insulation and can be destroyed in a single axe hit is outrageous!! Not to mention all the branches, too. I understand the need for realism, but sometimes you need to forego realism in order to have a balanced game. You have done this in the past, i.e. making it so swords dont need a handle and can just be made from raw pipe. I would just love to see pinewood houses viable again. If you make them easy to build, they would already be balanced. The insulation sucks and they can be removed easily(but I would prefer being able to move them around instead. maybe we can have both but hitting with an axe takes a ton of durability off of it) Thanks for taking the time to read!

futurebird · 2019-05-28 03:16:51

Ever built a fence from scratch, Jason? One that no one can get past without your permission? It's also not easy.

Wattle and daub is a rather simple building method and I think pine panels could we re-worked in to something that captured that craft of making a wall of sticks then putting mud on it. I just want to see the neat art created for these structures used more often, they look really cool, and it's a shame they aren't around. Really for modern people everything is hard. I've made a clay kiln and let me tell you you don't just slap some balls of clay on the ground with a round rock... and firing plates? hooo boy.... no joke. They need to stay in the stack for like a day and then half of them come out cracked if you didn't dig pure enough clay.

I enjoy the process of making the pine panels as much as anything else, but using rope that way *shudder* when I could make buckets or carts for my town. I just can't do it... that means something isn't balanced correctly.

BladeWoods · 2019-05-28 03:25:29

jasonrohrer wrote:

I don't think pine walls were ever used by anyone, ever, milkweed or not!
The thing is, I've made those pine panels in real life, and it's a ton of work.
There's an aspect of this game that is a "real maker aesthetic," and I've kept that going for most things. Track kits are a recent exception, along with property fences.
Obviously, the real maker aesthetic is cool and unique (no other game has 25 steps to make a fire, and the same steps translate exactly to real-world fire-making).
But just as obviously, a realistic making aesthetic is long-term tedious when you want to get down to business and play the damn game.

So I'm torn on stuff like this. Would be nice to make a stack of pine panels after making one, and set up structures throughout the village quickly.
Also, the "adobify" suggestion is a great one.
Maybe they could be very easy to move to make ad-hoc, temporary structures?

Give us pork and beef! PORK AND BEEF!

Pine wall recipe could be changed to adze + long shaft = notched shaft. Combine 4 notched shafts to get a Wooden Frame. Wood joints and joinery is realistic and doesn't require rope.
Pine walls could require mallet to loosen and then axe to destroy.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-05-28 03:31:37)

RodneyC86 · 2019-05-28 03:37:35

BladeWoods wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
I don't think pine walls were ever used by anyone, ever, milkweed or not!
The thing is, I've made those pine panels in real life, and it's a ton of work.
There's an aspect of this game that is a "real maker aesthetic," and I've kept that going for most things. Track kits are a recent exception, along with property fences.
Obviously, the real maker aesthetic is cool and unique (no other game has 25 steps to make a fire, and the same steps translate exactly to real-world fire-making).
But just as obviously, a realistic making aesthetic is long-term tedious when you want to get down to business and play the damn game.

So I'm torn on stuff like this. Would be nice to make a stack of pine panels after making one, and set up structures throughout the village quickly.
Also, the "adobify" suggestion is a great one.
Maybe they could be very easy to move to make ad-hoc, temporary structures?

Give us pork and beef! PORK AND BEEF!
Pine wall recipe could be changed to adze + long shaft = notched shaft. Combine 4 notched shafts to get a Wooden Frame. Wood joints and joinery is realistic and doesn't require rope.
Pine walls could require mallet to loosen and then axe to destroy.

Now that you mention it, what about those nailless and ropeless log houses? Surely butt logs shouldn't be a thing but just a log instead when a tree is chopped . Transportable only by hand cart or better

futurebird · 2019-05-28 04:20:11

BladeWoods wrote:

Give us pork and beef! PORK AND BEEF!
Pine wall recipe could be changed to adze + long shaft = notched shaft. Combine 4 notched shafts to get a Wooden Frame. Wood joints and joinery is realistic and doesn't require rope.
Pine walls could require mallet to loosen and then axe to destroy.

I agree on all counts. This recipe sounds pretty good. just add the pine needles to the frame tho. I really want to use pine needles for something.

Psykout · 2019-05-28 05:29:31

futurebird wrote:

BladeWoods wrote:
Give us pork and beef! PORK AND BEEF!
Pine wall recipe could be changed to adze + long shaft = notched shaft. Combine 4 notched shafts to get a Wooden Frame. Wood joints and joinery is realistic and doesn't require rope.
Pine walls could require mallet to loosen and then axe to destroy.

I agree on all counts. This recipe sounds pretty good. just add the pine needles to the frame tho. I really want to use pine needles for something.

Yeah I really like the notched shaft idea. Lincoln Logs! Agree with pine needle part too.

testo · 2019-05-28 07:14:04

jasonrohrer wrote:

I don't think pine walls were ever used by anyone, ever, milkweed or not!
The thing is, I've made those pine panels in real life, and it's a ton of work.
There's an aspect of this game that is a "real maker aesthetic," and I've kept that going for most things. Track kits are a recent exception, along with property fences.
Obviously, the real maker aesthetic is cool and unique (no other game has 25 steps to make a fire, and the same steps translate exactly to real-world fire-making).
But just as obviously, a realistic making aesthetic is long-term tedious when you want to get down to business and play the damn game.

So I'm torn on stuff like this. Would be nice to make a stack of pine panels after making one, and set up structures throughout the village quickly.
Also, the "adobify" suggestion is a great one.
Maybe they could be very easy to move to make ad-hoc, temporary structures?

But in real life the material cost is in reality what dictates what is made and what is not. Pine walls are not obsolete becuase they are tedious or require a lot of time and work, they are obsolete because you need 5 ropes and 4 shafts to make ONE panel, wich is ludicrous compared to the stone alternative or even compared to no building at all.

I predict that even at (1 rope+ 1 shaft) per panel we would still see no Pine walls, because the smallest room at 3x3 inside would need 16!!! ropes or 8 lassos, 64 milkweed.... you get the idea. To make them viable we need to get to 4 panels/rope at least. Think that the same room outside is less than 1 iron and labor (half a shovel and a quarter of a chisel). At 1 rope/ panel you still need more than 1 full iron (hoe), alot of work to farm and collect shafts plus a whole lot of soil + water.

The only way I see Pine walls working and flourishing is under a heavy buff in the cost side, something like: 4 ropes and 4 shafts give you a very complicated to craft workstation that produces 1 panel/ 1shaft alone, or maybe with a high top limit (with a chance of use like steel tools).

RodneyC86 · 2019-05-28 08:13:19

testo wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
I don't think pine walls were ever used by anyone, ever, milkweed or not!
The thing is, I've made those pine panels in real life, and it's a ton of work.
There's an aspect of this game that is a "real maker aesthetic," and I've kept that going for most things. Track kits are a recent exception, along with property fences.
Obviously, the real maker aesthetic is cool and unique (no other game has 25 steps to make a fire, and the same steps translate exactly to real-world fire-making).
But just as obviously, a realistic making aesthetic is long-term tedious when you want to get down to business and play the damn game.

So I'm torn on stuff like this. Would be nice to make a stack of pine panels after making one, and set up structures throughout the village quickly.
Also, the "adobify" suggestion is a great one.
Maybe they could be very easy to move to make ad-hoc, temporary structures?
But in real life the material cost is in reality what dictates what is made and what is not. Pine walls are not obsolete becuase they are tedious or require a lot of time and work, they are obsolete because you need 5 ropes and 4 shafts to make ONE panel, wich is ludicrous compared to the stone alternative or even compared to no building at all.
I predict that even at (1 rope+ 1 shaft) per panel we would still see no Pine walls, because the smallest room at 3x3 inside would need 16!!! ropes or 8 lassos, 64 milkweed.... you get the idea. To make them viable we need to get to 4 panels/rope at least. Think that the same room outside is less than 1 iron and labor (half a shovel and a quarter of a chisel). At 1 rope/ panel you still need more than 1 full iron (hoe), alot of work to farm and collect shafts plus a whole lot of soil + water.
The only way I see Pine walls working and flourishing is under a heavy buff in the cost side, something like: 4 ropes and 4 shafts give you a very complicated to craft workstation that produces 1 panel/ 1shaft alone, or maybe with a high top limit (with a chance of use like steel tools).

So much this

Now I don't know how rare rope is in real life history but it would seem to me it should be far more common since they have been used for so many constructions

We need more sources of fiber to make Rope Jason, then you will see more pine panel houses. If it's going to take 4 rope to make a panel, no one will make it. Now that I thi k about it, I've never seen one being made EVER since I started a month ago.

Dodge · 2019-05-28 08:27:18

Yes make the pine walls removable instead of destroyable, maybe adze to dislodge them?

And yeah with this many milkweed needed for just one panel it wont happen.

It could be a portable house kind of thing, put all the pine walls in a stack and move the house to another place.

Guppy · 2019-05-28 09:54:49

i feel like for pine walls, the things thats annoying to get should be the pine needles, not the rope. Maybe they need just one rope for the net thingy and then 3 batches of pine needles need to be added. People would actually go out and look for pine needles, right now, they are just useless

Twisted · 2019-05-28 11:18:28

jasonrohrer wrote:

The thing is, I've made those pine panels in real life, and it's a ton of work.
There's an aspect of this game that is a "real maker aesthetic," and I've kept that going for most things.

I feel you, and I think that's a really cool part of the game (it's the main thing that drew me to the game initially, actually), but what I bothers me a bit is the difference between various items in the same subset. When it comes to wall you have the pine walls which do have this real maker aesthetic, but then you also have adobe and stone which are extremely simplified, stone walls especially - you don't even need mortar for those.

I'm probably in the minority here (when it comes to players), but I'd prefer making buildings much more crucial while at the same time making adobe/stone walls harder to build.

I also think four rope per pine panel is potentially fine - the real problem, in my mind, is that rope is far too difficult to get in this game. I'd prefer making rope easier to get (something other than milkweed) and rebalancing stuff like carts and boxes (you mentioned nails a few days ago).

JonySky · 2019-05-28 13:07:28

Twisted wrote:

I'm probably in the minority here (when it comes to players), but I'd prefer making buildings much more crucial while at the same time making adobe/stone walls harder to build.

no, it's not a minority
I also believe that buildings are currently purely aesthetic and are not necessary
I also believe that buildings must be vital for survival
I think temperatures should rise and fall randomly and being inside or outside a building should mean life or death by freezing

Booklat1 · 2019-05-28 13:13:10

jasonrohrer wrote:

The thing is, I've made those pine panels in real life, and it's a ton of work.
There's an aspect of this game that is a "real maker aesthetic," and I've kept that going for most things. Track kits are a recent exception, along with property fences.

So its ok to make things unrealisticly easy to push broken mechanics but not to balance base features?

This right here is why i abhor fences, you've literally made a tech side branch that obeys no rules that other features do while arguing you're hands tied to fix other stuff.

Buildings are still unneeded. some are even bad, but fences? They're free to be OP as fuck because "mah property"

honestly, it seems like having people rip off your game is what even sparked this whole mechanic into existance

Dont get me wrong, panels shouldnt be super cheap but neither should fences

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-05-28 13:14:27)

Potjeh · 2019-05-28 13:14:32

> real aesthetics
> can't eat raw tomatoes
> ok.jpg

RodneyC86 · 2019-05-28 13:17:40

Potjeh wrote:

> real aesthetics
> can't eat raw tomatoes
> ok.jpg

TBH, I can't eat raw tomatoes either, unless you put it in a BLT

XD

Twisted · 2019-05-28 13:45:44

JonySky wrote:

Twisted wrote:
I'm probably in the minority here (when it comes to players), but I'd prefer making buildings much more crucial while at the same time making adobe/stone walls harder to build.
no, it's not a minority
I also believe that buildings are currently purely aesthetic and are not necessary
I also believe that buildings must be vital for survival
I think temperatures should rise and fall randomly and being inside or outside a building should mean life or death by freezing

Sorry, I should have been more clear, I meant that most would probably disagree with me when I say that stone/adobe walls should be harder to build.

Guppy · 2019-05-28 14:41:13

I dont think that the limit for building should be resources.
It should be time. Stones, branches, clay, whatever you use for your house, arent hard to find IRL.
But it takes alot of work refining those resources before you can build a house out of them.

Now, a craft timer was the first thing to come to mind, but that just sounds horrible for OHOL.

What about, instead, it takes more steps to build walls. Like green beans.
You dont just harvest them and put them into a crock pot.
YOu wait for them to dry, harvest them, clean them, soak them, etc.
It makes the whole process slower, but not boring.
Making stew would be boring if you just yoink 3 things off a bush and throw them in together, Maybe we should take this concept and apply it to other things that are "too easy" atm, instead of adding more resources needed to do them

Psykout · 2019-05-28 14:53:17

Guppy wrote:

I dont think that the limit for building should be resources.
It should be time. Stones, branches, clay, whatever you use for your house, arent hard to find IRL.
But it takes alot of work refining those resources before you can build a house out of them.
Now, a craft timer was the first thing to come to mind, but that just sounds horrible for OHOL.
What about, instead, it takes more steps to build walls. Like green beans.
You dont just harvest them and put them into a crock pot.
YOu wait for them to dry, harvest them, clean them, soak them, etc.
It makes the whole process slower, but not boring.
Making stew would be boring if you just yoink 3 things off a bush and throw them in together, Maybe we should take this concept and apply it to other things that are "too easy" atm, instead of adding more resources needed to do them

I think it would be even worse that as a productive player, that knows how to build, you will have even more trouble completing it. The good ones would just stop building all together because it takes way too much time to complete.

Guppy · 2019-05-28 15:32:16

Psykout wrote:

Guppy wrote:
I dont think that the limit for building should be resources.
It should be time. Stones, branches, clay, whatever you use for your house, arent hard to find IRL.
But it takes alot of work refining those resources before you can build a house out of them.
Now, a craft timer was the first thing to come to mind, but that just sounds horrible for OHOL.
What about, instead, it takes more steps to build walls. Like green beans.
You dont just harvest them and put them into a crock pot.
YOu wait for them to dry, harvest them, clean them, soak them, etc.
It makes the whole process slower, but not boring.
Making stew would be boring if you just yoink 3 things off a bush and throw them in together, Maybe we should take this concept and apply it to other things that are "too easy" atm, instead of adding more resources needed to do them
I think it would be even worse that as a productive player, that knows how to build, you will have even more trouble completing it. The good ones would just stop building all together because it takes way too much time to complete.

If things change with building, would you rather have to go look for more and rare resources or do this?

Only if buildings would be actually worth it ofc

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irrelevant updates/content being made new/better

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