most griefing breaks the immersion of the game

futurebird · 2019-04-27 15:57:09

First definitions. The word griefing is used to describe everything from unmotivated killing sprees/destruction... to someone just not playing efficiently... to people being rude. When I talk about griefing, however, I'm using it in a rather narrow sense to mean anyone who works to kill off families, any family, just to prevent towns and civilizations from advancing or existing at all. So, even a targeted revenge killing spree on a particular family wouldn't count as griefing to me. Griefing is about spoiling the game for other people by working against the stated goal of the game: to build civilization from the ground up.

Obstacles to building civilization should exist. In some ways it can even be realistic to have a griefer. There have always been people who were deeply anti-social or who have been wronged by the great and the good so often that they act out in purely destructive ways. The issue is that right now it happens far too often in this game. And that impact is magnified by having posts here that brag about it. A story about a person who tries to destroy a town CAN be an interesting story, but right now ALL towns die before they get very far. There are a lot of forces that destroy towns, I don't even think that griefers are the primary one. However, they are the force most detrimental to people staying invested in the game!

Griefers give the feeling that "no one is trying, no one cares" and when you feel that way it's hard to keep caring yourself. Were griefing more rare it would be interesting. It would be shocking. Right now it's just part of the game. It's boring. Nearly every town has it's griefer because people who don't really take the game seriously and who want to anger and annoy those who do are THAT common.

You can't force people to engage with the content in the game in an invested way and that's a good thing, it has to be a free choice. Still, most griefing breaks the immersion of the game for me. It takes me out of the world. It reminds me it's just a computer program and I'm just clicking a mouse. Some juvenile minded person somewhere is having a laugh at my expense. It's like being disconnected from the server. Annoying, something that shouldn't happen, ideally.

The best lives that I have lived have had no griefing in them. When enough time goes by without someone reminding me it's just a game the world can become very real and when someone dies... it hurts. When someone is able to do the project they were struggling with I feel and share their joy. I can care about interpersonal conflicts because the people in the game seem real to me.

In contrast to this, when, in town after town, in addition to the struggle against nature, clutter, and babies using /die all the time, I keep encountering players who are just screwing around, stabbing people for no reason I think "I'm a nerd for trying to take this seriously or treat it like a story, no one else is doing that... Jason thinks this is how the game is supposed to be-- I should stop caring so much"

Listen, I totally get that a world without murder is boring. (I'm horrified that so many people want to remove murder from the game.) These requests are a symptom of a real problem. Yes, a world without bad actors is boring. But you know what else is boring? A world where there are so many people "trolling" that you feel foolish for not joining them or just quitting.

For the first time in about 8 games I had a life that I really cared about this morning. And that just reminded me how good this game can be when you encounter the right people. It gave me that feeling again where I want to get all of my friends to play so they can experience it too.

The implied sanctioning and indifference to griefers I've seen from Jason, the notion that they belong in "every" town leads to more griefing and keeps some players away. It makes new people more wary of the game. That is a bad thing! The big goals that Jason has talked about: having trade, having towns that last longer with greater and greater complexity require more people playing. We need growing towns and a growing player base.

We keep circling around looking for some magic-bullet-type change to game mechanics that will make people engage in conflict AND care about it. Maybe if we lock people in biomes? Maybe if we make people be born in tribes and give them different powers? Maybe if we have property fenced in? Maybe let greifers keep on bragging? That's conflict, right? When people get angry we're told "but you are angry so that means you really care, it's working!" uh no... On and on solutions that are designed to pit people against each other-- But, the issue isn't that there isn't enough conflict, it's that there is so much unsubstantial conflict now that murder and death are cheapened, it's that we don't have enough people to organize towards those greater goals. And part of the reason we don't have enough people is griefers make the game less fun. I might play 3 or 4 games in a row, but if I get killed randomly I mostly stop playing for a bit. When it happened 4 times in a row one day I nearly quit entirely.

Just because something makes people mad and generates attention doesn't mean it's interesting, dramatic or good. People are sounding the alarm about how frustrated they feel. They talk about removing murder from the game, about banning people from the game for murdering, about how their game experience was ruined. We are asking for help with this problem. Saying "it's not really a problem" is incredibly frustrating. The posts complaining about griefing are not a sign that things are working well and that we have "interesting stories" --it's a sign that more and more players are getting fed up-- It will not lead to better engagement but rather less.

All the time we keep ignoring the elephant in the room which is there are not enough people in the towns, and the game needs more players. It's mostly a damn good game so it should be totally possible to make the game much more popular. And a lot of us are ready to help Jason make it happen! I still care about this game I want to see it do well and get the accolades and attention it deserves. That isn't going to happen if it remains a griefers paradise.

Jason do you "really care" about the majority of players? (I know that you do, but the way that you talk about one of the more obnoxious aspects of the game ... as if it's a feature ... makes me wonder.) Do you care about all of the good stories that were cut short by a random murder and some kid going "ha ha U ded last girl?"

Oh. What a memorable "story" --

Last edited by futurebird (2019-04-27 16:28:51)

CatX · 2019-04-27 16:54:20

futurebird wrote:

When I talk about griefing, however, I'm using it in a rather narrow sense to mean anyone who works to kill off families, any family, just to prevent towns and civilizations from advancing or existing at all. So, even a targeted revenge killing spree on a particular family wouldn't count as griefing to me.

This is my definition as well. Good way to put it.

futurebird wrote:

There are a lot of forces that destroy towns, I don't even think that griefers are the primary one. However, they are the force most detrimental to people staying invested in the game!

This is such a good point that it deserves to be quoted.

futurebird wrote:

The best lives that I have lived have had no griefing in them.

Me too.

futurebird wrote:

The implied sanctioning and indifference to griefers I've seen from Jason, the notion that they belong in "every" town leads to more griefing and keeps some players away. It makes new people more wary of the game. That is a bad thing! The big goals that Jason has talked about: having trade, having towns that last longer with greater and greater complexity require more people playing. We need growing towns and a growing player base.

And to extend this point: The game can't please everyone. The impression right now is that the game, with the current philosophy about griefers' place in it, fails to produce good enough stories for non-griefers to want to stay.

futurebird wrote:

We keep circling around looking for some magic-bullet-type change to game mechanics that will make people engage in conflict AND care about it.
...
When people get angry we're told "but you are angry so that means you really care, it's working!" uh no...

This too is such a good point!

Uh, no!

Immersion is caring.

Being bored, or angered, by griefers is not.

futurebird wrote:

Jason do you "really care" about the majority of players? (I know that you do, but the way that you talk about one of the more obnoxious aspects of the game ... as if it's a feature ... makes me wonder.)

In other words - It's not a feature, it's a bug.

Good post, futurebird.

A_person_1234 · 2019-04-27 17:13:38

Great post. If we want to have large cities with trading, we can't have griefing at the same level as it is now. Civilization isn't going to be possible with so many people actively sabotaging it.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-27 17:37:45

You have many good points futurebird.

breezeknight · 2019-04-27 23:58:04

i say it again

griefing is not the problem

the problem is
this game doesn't reward being constructive

who counts how many berry bushes you planted or how many kilns you made or how many wolves you killed or how many kids you raised ?

nobody !
you get at best a TY in game & that's it

being constructive is unrewarding in OHOL

you don't get any merit for your contributions, you don't own anything you made, an Eve has no saying, you get killed by your own kids
the game doesn't punish destructivity & doesn't reward constructivity
it's demoralizing
no wonder players grief
they get invited to do so with this

since a year players have spoken against griefing
but they talk against the wind
the wind is blowing in the direction of no reward for what you contribute
griefers just take by force & violence what nobody gets
they at least get negative merit, they even get rewarded by a curse system, Donkey Town & /die

- - -

Bob 101 · 2019-04-28 02:33:57

Depends on the kind of griefing.

You can do very minor forms of "griefing" like breaking people's yum chains or naming there babies. Or going round with a butter knife doing /devious. Basically trying to annoy people without outright destroying a town.

But griefing isn't the only thing that ruins immersion.

Sheep pens made from things that aren't fences for example.

Last edited by Bob 101 (2019-04-28 02:44:44)

DestinyCall · 2019-04-28 03:21:22

Thank you for this post, futurebird. You hit on a bunch of things that I have felt myself, especially when I was reading some of Jason's responses regarding griefing.

Destruction is always so much easier to accomplish than creation. In an even fight, chaos usually wins because there are so many ways for things to go badly and just a handful of ways for things to turn out right. The last thing you want to do is open the door and invite griefers to "enjoy" your game on equal footing with non-griefers. It won't end well for anyone. Providing solid community support is very important for multiplayer games. With the right tools, the community can police itself, but without those tools and without any external moderation to impose order, the worse kind of people can end up with far too much power.

MultiLife · 2019-04-28 08:55:26

Good post. And I agree. I will most certainly not recommend the game to new people or stay to play if my lives are spent either getting killed or chasing people who try to end the town.
My fun is simple, I enjoy farming and exploring. People keep thinking that's boring but I enjoy it. I think it's boring and frustrating to chase people with a knife.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-04-28 17:39:39)

Toxic · 2019-04-28 11:10:24

You guys are such cry babies, if your so bad at the game that you can’t 1v1 a griefer then go die. Trust me it’s better.

CatX · 2019-04-28 12:19:57

I'd love to go die if I had the option of choosing to be reborn with good people.

It is easier to grief than not to grief.

When you grief, all you need to worry about is getting in a kill or two before anyone notices.

Being a guard means being on the watch while at the same time making sure to put in efforts where the town needs it if necessary. It might be in dire need of compost, a hoe, clothes for babies, the kitchen might not be operational, the last female might need help to yum and stay warm... all while you're hunting the one griefer who you realize plays an entirely different game than you???

It amazes me that towns do so well despite of griefers and yet - I can't recall when I last saw a car or an airplane. Even with the cloth update, fancy clothes aren't abundant either. So I guess the towns are not doing so well after all.

Griefing is stupid. I don't care what Jason says. Griefing (given Futurebird's definition in the original post) is a bug, not a feature.

A pvp server is the only idea I can think of that both caters to normal players and griefers need for griefing - we might not have to call it griefing any more, we could simply call it pvp.
There are other games with pvp.
That's where both parties are invested in learning the same skills, because they agree on what the rules of the game are.
After pvping, they end with a kind GG.

Griefing is not GG. Griefing is lame.

Last edited by CatX (2019-04-28 12:23:03)

DestinyCall · 2019-04-28 15:50:38

CatX wrote:

A pvp server is the only idea I can think of that both caters to normal players and griefers need for griefing - we might not have to call it griefing any more, we could simply call it pvp.
There are other games with pvp.
That's where both parties are invested in learning the same skills, because they agree on what the rules of the game are.
After pvping, they end with a kind GG.
Griefing is not GG. Griefing is lame.

The problem is you can't solve the griefing problem with a PvP server. Because griefing might be "player vs player" behavior, but it isn't really PvP. If they wanted real PvP, they'd be playing Rust or PUBG. Griefers want to grief ... they WANT to kill carrot farmers while they are farming carrots. They want to stab the last girl baby to doom the rest of the town. They want to destroy the sheep pen and giggle at all the people running around looking for a rope to catch the sheep.

It's not really about being able to do PvP stuff in OHOL. They kill people, but I don't think they really want to FIGHT other people. Murder is just one of the tools they use to get what they really want. I think it's about wanting to break down what other people have built up. Griefers are like that asshole kid who walks over and knocks down someone else's sand castle at the beach. They aren't interested in having a sand castle war with the other kid where they are both building castles and trying to destroy each other's sand castle. They might lose a sand castle war. And it takes time and effort to build a decent sand castle. No, they just want laugh at the other kid's tears and walk away. Serves him right for caring about his stupid sand castle, right?

futurebird · 2019-04-28 16:09:34

DestinyCall wrote:

They aren't interested in having a sand castle war with the other kid where they are both building castles and trying to destroy each other's sand castle. They might lose a sand castle war.

This is so true. And "sand castle war" sounds fun.

Tea · 2019-04-28 17:43:57

A lot of people will probably not agree with this by saying this but here I go ^^

I don't mind griefers. I do not like them but I don't want them gone either. Why ? Because they add a little bit of spice, some drama to each life. Just like some Roleplayers do. When the curse system and donkeytown was introduced, we had a time with few to no griefers in a town. Each life was without any event, any drama ... each life was the same life. I started to miss the griefers because they gave some action in an somewhat advanced town.

@Multilife, your three amazing drawings that you have shared with us were about the life you lived with a griefer. Your daughters killing two griefers, your adoptive father who gave you a name after he killed a griefer and the time you had to kill at least four people. I'm not saying that it's thanks to them that you made such good drawings but they gave you an interesting life, right ?

I know that some of you would like to just have a quiet life, building, farming and just spend some times chatting with other players, without anyone threatening that peace. I do to. But I also like a little bit of drama in each life, either by a griefer or by someone playing a role.

People are mad that other players are killing off their families. And I can understand that. It's frustrating. Buuuut no one is doing anything against it. And I don't mean killing the griefer, that's a whole other story but by not preparing any pads in case people get hurt.

I noticed that the one thing that a town lacks are pads and needles with thread. Pads are only being made AFTER a killing spree happened, not before. The first thing I do in every town that I get born into, is making pads and placing them next to the fire where babies are being nursed. I've died less in those lifes.

But then there are other problems :

First, people take the needle and thread for their own use and place them in their backpacks, thinking that they will be safer with them. They are not. We don't have the time looking for the ones who have the needle and thread nor the time looking for a new needle when someone is hurt. And don't blame that on the other players or the new players because everyone is guilty doing this. We tell everyone not to take the pads out of the bowl but no one is telling the others not to touch the one needle and thread next to it. If you need to make clothes out of the fur, then find another needle.

Second, when there are pads, some people will not use them. I see so many times where players just stand around one hurt player, talking on who did it and what happened when the pads are just three tiles away. Or they do not know how to use or make them. Same goes for arrow wounds. In big towns, when someone is asking to teach them, the first thing is showing them how to farm. Yes I know, it's important as well but how about showing them how to treat wounds first ? Especially arrow wounds.

TL;DR : Families die out because no one is taking the time on making pads before the killing spree.

So yea, if the griefers are getting more intelligent on killing towns, then we have to become more smarter as well.

MultiLife · 2019-04-28 17:46:29

Tea wrote:

@Multilife, your three amazing drawings that you have shared with us were about the life you lived with a griefer. Your daughters killing two griefers, your adoptive father who gave you a name after he killed a griefer and the time you had to kill at least four people. I'm not saying that it's thanks to them that you made such good drawings but they gave you an interesting life, right ?

I hated those lives and drew the drawings to make it better. And to stomp on griefers. Sort of "nyah nyah we won" thing, so the stress during that life was balanced out with something positive and powerful.

futurebird · 2019-04-28 18:00:31

Tea wrote:

A lot of people will probably not agree with this by saying this but here I go ^^
I don't mind griefers. I do not like them but I don't want them gone either. Why ? Because they add a little bit of spice, some drama to each life.

Did you even read my post? I am not talking about getting rid of greifers in the game. And I make this exact point in like the first paragraph. I know it's long. But, people keep on thinking I don't want any griefing when what I want is some response to the bragging and encouraging griefing in the forums.

I personally think there is a bit too much of it now. But I have never said it should be eliminated from the game.

CatX · 2019-04-28 18:51:22

Tea wrote:

A lot of people will probably not agree with this by saying this but here I go ^^
I know that some of you would like to just have a quiet life, building, farming and just spend some times chatting with other players, without anyone threatening that peace.

Allow me to quote the original post as a reply to this:

futurebird wrote:

First definitions. The word griefing is used to describe everything from unmotivated killing sprees/destruction... to someone just not playing efficiently... to people being rude. When I talk about griefing, however, I'm using it in a rather narrow sense to mean anyone who works to kill off families, any family, just to prevent towns and civilizations from advancing or existing at all. So, even a targeted revenge killing spree on a particular family wouldn't count as griefing to me. Griefing is about spoiling the game for other people by working against the stated goal of the game: to build civilization from the ground up.

We are distinguishing between murder and griefing.
Not all murder is griefing.
Granted, it can be hard to distinguish.
I remember one time recently when it was fun to by killed by this evil person (in-game evil).

But griefing is boring.

If people join griefer channels to plan to destroy towns, that is just plain stupid.

If someone decides that today I'm going to destroy other people's work even before their characters are born, without any notion of what their character would have done, who their family is, whether or not their mother loved them, all that jazz - then the killing spree is random, stupid, unwanted, and yes - boring.

I mentioned in another post that I haven't seen a car or a plane in ages. There's been a lot of murders in towns I've been to. A lot of loose bears. None of these were memorable events except a very few times, when the evil person was in-game evil, not randomly I just feel like killing everyone evil.

pein · 2019-04-28 22:09:21

well the killers are other category, i seen a lot, and i don't think is a problem all the time

killing is not always bad
the only way to get rid of some people
some can eat till 60, but do nothing, and the only time they do something is when they take resources from others

some people get bored and kill each other
as long as both parties got some sort of truth in actions, i rather let them kill each other if they don't drag others into it
as long as they don't hurt the city is fine

i really hate when people cut trees or waste resources, that makes much harder for next generations and they increase the number of SID
so any effort you put into making nice farms, rooms, gets ruined

i never went into a game and thinking before that "oh i just destroy the next city" if they work hard and make nice things i wont do it, i did some killing sprees when duel bugs were present, and killed mega cities but people were lazy and no one cared anyway
sure you can go in game like "oh if i don't get clothes i kill a clothed person" that's fine, baby gearers don't think is fine, and the geared babies either
if i got a pack i give other babies clothes ,generally i don't keep torso cause i make or get apron, if i got a sis i give her clothes and ask to babysit for me. in theory a clothed person can kill a naked easily, so if nakeds do it for clothes, he/she need to be prepared
so even if it's not the nicest thing, there is some balance in it, a risk, a skill involved

people not reacting when half the city is destroyed by stupid trolls, is sooo bad, they even curse you if you try to stop them

so the only kills i think is griefing is multiple fertile females in a row
now don't get me wrong, lot of mentally weak players only play as female, and if female, they think they cannot be killed cause they are important
they are not. if you got 3+ females, killing a female griefer makes no difference

i will kill assholes even if it's the end of a lineage. if the city is good enough i might steal a female girl and raise her, but if it isn't that good city i just go ahead to punish, chances are quite low they keep babies or don't mess up everything anyway
i had this girl, she knew she last female, and kill her first daughter
now it's 50% or less to get a girl, 25% or less that she is girl and stays
and she wanted to stay, and this dumbass killed her
i was pissed and didn't found pads and needle or even fire, so i was like, lets make this baby happy, and just kill her mom in return, she was like "ha ha" when her killer mom died, and i guess i killed a bit of work people made, but also showed someone that idiots get punished

now other types
people use griefer for "the person who dares to say no"
some get a knife and they are older and they think they lead shit

rp doctor: she wants pads, how about not being a dick so nobody gets hurt? stealing others work is quite bad start for that.
if you hoard knife and needle in pack, you are the only one who cant be saved from a bow shot
i fed 7 sheep and she had problem that i make apron, i also made 4 compost as a kid, that's a full circle.
we say that the one who feeds sheep gets the fleece
truth is you need to make compost, 4 pies and take out the bones for a full circle
sure, you can just take the wheat and meat to oven and let others do it
but when someone has a life goal of making clothes for herself, will take everything from you in the process, so you might as well make a new pen than wait a noob to produce 12 dung and 12 fleece
now you can feed same sheep, but then lose out on meat
which is still better than eating berries, even if you cook raw

storing it and managing can be lot of clutter, so i get that you don't do more than 20 raw meat at a time
but you produce 24 dung for clothes then the pen will be full and the shovel gets broken without any compost, and you use up the soil and don't compost, that is straight up griefing cause you enforce others to do jobs they don't want to
if i want to make a car, and you don't pick the carrots you water, im enforced to pick it before seeds

lot of times the people are just too dumb to realize what are you doing and either call you griefer for composting or they look like griefers and you try to be careful
i don't see any situation where a kid needs to bump on a weapon or make a blade before storage or run around with a snowball
or hold a loaded bow inside city
if you do this why you are surpised someone wont like it?

now regarding to skill:
i see a lot of dumb griefers
they kill someone and basically starve cause they new at it
same as for heroes who try save town, shot the bear once and die to it
or kill the griefer or starve to it
stab their mom cause she asks for it then starve
a player can play legit, but like make a fence, hoard all resources, you cannot stop if you don't go around with open eyes, he can make compost all life and help, but if you piss someone off and he decides he wont share, you can only blame yourself for not cooperating
so it goes both ways
you need to learn to fight, and be a good protector to the city, so you have no problem seeing griefers, asking for help, or asking for understanding when you kill them
so drop this mentality of "females are much better", no they don't, skilled players are good at any gender
"murder is bad"- sometimes people deserve it, sometimes it's personal, then it's not your business, if the person talks normally and goes back to work, don't make unnecessary drama out of it
and any situation, you can be a griefer or considered one, so any ideas regarding to nerfing, you should consider the possibility that you are annoying to others for any reason
kills got nerfed a lot, so you should be able to kill a serial killer under 1 minute of slowdown or heal the player who was attacked

honikker · 2019-04-28 23:28:25

People who break every single game-related thing down into maths break the immersion of the game, too.

CatX · 2019-04-28 23:46:17

honikker wrote:

People who break every single game-related thing down into maths break the immersion of the game, too.

Not to me. I see their analysis skills and opinions on best practice as part of the civilization building aspect of the game. Although I think the most important thing is that we have fun, at the same time I know I have a lot to learn from them about survival, and I value hearing their thoughts on what they think is the most optimal way to do things.

I far from play optimally, but I've never had problems with people getting mad at me because of it.

pein · 2019-04-29 02:14:45

well people who develop games without math break the immersion of the players who use math
like one thing what is possible and other how people use it

i always imagine worst case scenarios and best case scenarios

your view is "oh it's just a game"
i seen a person say that there is no waste cause this is a game and cutting kindling from firewood
when his grandkid sees no trees and the fire goes out will be like "fuck that person who cut all those trees"
so optimization of resources is saving others more resources later
like in real life you don't spend so much on yourself if you got kids

i like the thoughts of others, you can optimize around it and connect dots on how to prove them a solution is better than theirs
and i like if someone has better ideas than me, i adopt them

futurebird · 2019-04-29 02:53:17

pein wrote:

well people who develop games without math break the immersion of the players who use math

*fist pumping and cheering*

Anyway, I think wanting to optimize is realistic, it's human nature to find the laziest way to do things: lest effort most payoff. Math is the laziest of all the disciplines.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-04-27 15:57:09

most griefing breaks the immersion of the game

#2 2019-04-27 16:54:20

Re: most griefing breaks the immersion of the game

#3 2019-04-27 17:13:38

Re: most griefing breaks the immersion of the game

#4 2019-04-27 17:37:45

Re: most griefing breaks the immersion of the game

#5 2019-04-27 23:58:04

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#6 2019-04-28 02:33:57

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#9 2019-04-28 11:10:24

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#10 2019-04-28 12:19:57

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#11 2019-04-28 15:50:38

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#12 2019-04-28 16:09:34

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#13 2019-04-28 17:43:57

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#14 2019-04-28 17:46:29

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#15 2019-04-28 18:00:31

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#17 2019-04-28 22:09:21

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#18 2019-04-28 23:28:25

Re: most griefing breaks the immersion of the game

#19 2019-04-28 23:46:17

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#20 2019-04-29 02:14:45

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