Another biome specialization idea

Ilka · 2019-04-26 13:25:28

Vexenie wrote:

Ilka wrote:
vases to which a lot of cereal bowls can be poured.
Cereal? The wheat grain bowl?
EYY JASON! MAKE US ABLE TO POUR MILK IN WHEAT GRAIN BOWLS!

Yes.
My point is that some tribes will be able to make improved items - for example, larger baskets, or just vases for storing wheat.
Such specialized products can be traded between tribes.
But it can not be just a bowl or a rabbit because it will ruin the game completely.
The basic things must be able to do all players, and only something that is not necessary but very useful can be the subject of trade.

Twisted · 2019-04-26 13:57:06

This would require a complete tech tree overhaul and it sounds like a worse version of Stylin's suggestion. It's also incredibly gamey and it would do nothing to encourage trade.

The problem with both suggestions is that there will always be a best biome and most people will just die until they spawn there.

Also the game just doesn't have enough players to make this work.

Stylingirl · 2019-04-26 14:57:51

Twisted wrote:

The problem with both suggestions is that there will always be a best biome and most people will just die until they spawn there.

There will always be a best biome, like the swamp, because there's literally no other way to survive without water and currently only one biome has a water source. It's already common though for Eves to walk for a long time or kill themselves in search for an acceptable biome border combination that would give their lineage the best chance at survival, so I don't see why that would be much of an issue.

Twisted · 2019-04-26 15:06:45

Stylingirl wrote:

Twisted wrote:
The problem with both suggestions is that there will always be a best biome and most people will just die until they spawn there.
There will always be a best biome, like the swamp, because there's literally no other way to survive without water and currently only one biome has a water source. It's already common though for Eves to walk for a long time or kill themselves in search for an acceptable biome border combination that would give their lineage the best chance at survival, so I don't see why that would be much of an issue.

Yes, but currently everyone is created equal so you can just go and find a good spot. If you're born with a detriment which means you literally can't see iron or rabbits or whatever, you're gonna respawn until you get the least sucky 'detriment'.

Redram · 2019-04-26 15:11:23

Well everyone has pretty much said it well but just to reiterate: this won't work under the current regime because everyone is too far away. Even IF you reduced the spawn distance to where people might meet, the work required to make each 'race' livable in their biome for a time would be a significant part of fully independent biome work. AND even if you do that, what happens when the nearby complementary tribes die off early, for any number of reasons? Now you've got nobody in range, and you're tech-locked. Does that honestly sound fun to you Jason?

If everyone spawns very close, and green biome is the only common biome, then everyone is going to end up concentrated in green biomes, in single settlements. What happens when you're born in a green biome btw? You can do anything from any biome? Nothing from any other biome? So now towns are forced to manage a bunch of nurseries bordering other biomes to get specialized babies? Or is the biome gene passed down? So now towns need to maintain population from each lineage? And they already have a hard enough time just maintaining women at all? I mean seriously how is this part going to work?

So at best - assuming everyone concentrates in one green town and can maintain the separate gene lines, all you're doing is forcing people to individually specialize, not have inter-town trade. You're going to increase dramatically the suicide rate, because who honestly wants to be locked into basket making and pottery? Your experienced players are only going to suicide till they're mountain people because all the fun stuff is in metal. Who wants to be a plains person after the town has sheep, and the only thing you're good for is backpacks and stew farming? Who's going to want to be a swamp person when the town already has unending immortal plates and bowls, wheat for baskets, and pumped wells made? Nobody is going to want to be pigeon-holed Jason. That's not an attractive game feature in this type of game.

And in the end, it's not going to cause trade. Again, it's just going to cause people clumping together in green biomes and toiling at their forced specialization, just giving their stuff away because that's the only way the town will survive, and then finally throwing in the towel when the mountain line dies out.

I want to reiterate, right now you can have a settlement come back from a marginal population drop to like, 3 people. Even just one technically. But you're idea would create a much more precarious situation, where you're going to need to maintain a minimum population of what, 6-10 people from 3-5 different biomes? This will crater civilization advancement.

Can't see the resource to interact? Come on, this is the gamiest of gamey gimmicks.

Last edited by Redram (2019-04-26 15:13:27)

Stylingirl · 2019-04-26 15:13:48

Twisted wrote:

Stylingirl wrote:
Twisted wrote:
The problem with both suggestions is that there will always be a best biome and most people will just die until they spawn there.
There will always be a best biome, like the swamp, because there's literally no other way to survive without water and currently only one biome has a water source. It's already common though for Eves to walk for a long time or kill themselves in search for an acceptable biome border combination that would give their lineage the best chance at survival, so I don't see why that would be much of an issue.

Yes, but currently everyone is created equal so you can just go and find a good spot. If you're born with a detriment which means you literally can't see iron or rabbits or whatever, you're gonna respawn until you get the least sucky 'detriment'.

But isn't the point to not have equal opportunity to encourage trade? I agree that the invisible thing is a little too off-the-wall and that Jason's idea would make the game pretty much impossible if people didn't strategize their birth locations, but for bigger biomes I doubt people will decide there is only one meta biome and refuse to settle anywhere besides that one.

Tarr · 2019-04-26 15:17:44

Stylingirl wrote:

Twisted wrote:
Stylingirl wrote:
There will always be a best biome, like the swamp, because there's literally no other way to survive without water and currently only one biome has a water source. It's already common though for Eves to walk for a long time or kill themselves in search for an acceptable biome border combination that would give their lineage the best chance at survival, so I don't see why that would be much of an issue.

Yes, but currently everyone is created equal so you can just go and find a good spot. If you're born with a detriment which means you literally can't see iron or rabbits or whatever, you're gonna respawn until you get the least sucky 'detriment'.
But isn't the point to not have equal opportunity to encourage trade? I agree that the invisible thing is a little too off-the-wall and that Jason's idea would make the game pretty much impossible if people didn't strategize their birth locations, but for bigger biomes I doubt people will decide there is only one meta biome and refuse to settle anywhere besides that one.

As Twisted already stated people are just going to suicide out of the boring biomes. Jungle would just be an hour of collecting bananas to give away since what are you going to trade for otherwise? Desert/arctic are even more useless until later so that's another set of biomes that would be suicide biomes. Basically only three of the non-communal biomes are able to do anything so a chunk of the population is just useless until late game where they'll be long gone.

breezeknight · 2019-04-26 15:18:59

jasonrohrer wrote:

Trade requires SOMEONE having something that you don't have, not some distant area having something that you don't have in your local area.

not only requires it that there is someone in the area but also
that someone has to actually HAVE something
& you must be also able to HAVE something

in OHOL there is no regular option for having something
people have still utilised those few unintented options to actually have something like
one can have one thing temporarily in hand
with an apron or shorts, one thing can be in permanent possession
if in new basket 3 things, in old 2 until one sets down the basket, so temporarily again
in a new backpack 4 things, in old 2 in actual permanent possession

THAT's why new backpacks are so sought-after in game
because they allow to have actually something, to own it actually, to have an own private possesion without any necessity of a lock & key
& without needing to wait till a fence it approved
& with a backpack one is not bound to an area but can move about freely

the fences are ok for family or group property but completely useless for personal possession

if we had more space for stuff to keep, then maybe we could barter
4 spaces is tiny, often not even enough to be able to keep all necessary tools to do only one work,
let alone to keep enough stuff to trade with someone

that disability to own anything is what makes actual communist society, where everything is owned by anybody
& you work your butt off for the good of the community
& leaches try to skew that communist commune but they still are not even able to own anything really, not more than those few objects they can keep in their backpack

so why invent some strange limiting in game mechanics which are not reality orientated ?
why not try to simulate how RL is working ? how possession IRL is working ?

already those fences
i was pro property, that's right, without property no trade
but the cumbersome way to the property is causing more clutter than actual property
& is probably better suited to mark stuff than to own an area,
but also, no trade without possession but more cumbersome garbled options won't do the trick with trade

- - -

Last edited by breezeknight (2019-04-26 15:19:27)

Stylingirl · 2019-04-26 15:30:01

Tarr wrote:

As Twisted already stated people are just going to suicide out of the boring biomes. Jungle would just be an hour of collecting bananas to give away since what are you going to trade for otherwise? Desert/arctic are even more useless until later so that's another set of biomes that would be suicide biomes. Basically only three of the non-communal biomes are able to do anything so a chunk of the population is just useless until late game where they'll be long gone.

Yeah but I also suggested in my thread making the biomes much more viable if they were to become a lot bigger which would fix the issue of not being able to survive in them. Biome exclusive recipes and recipes that need resources from multiple biomes also encourages exploration and trading. People who live in or near the jungle could trade in oil and rubber for example while people in badlands would probably have a higher chance of having an iron surplus and wool.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-26 15:54:32

jasonrohrer wrote:

Maybe the rabbits are invisible to people who don't live there, or the snare recipe just doesn't exist for them. I guess it could be as simple as being unable to interact with natural objects that aren't in the biome that you were born in.

Why the fuck would you do this though? let tribes fight other biomes over resources instead

please, chill with the lame ideas, variation is great but not if everything is locked.

We want MORE not LESS, we want REALISM not GIMMICKS

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-04-26 16:00:38)

DestinyCall · 2019-04-26 16:11:42

Booklat1 wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Maybe the rabbits are invisible to people who don't live there, or the snare recipe just doesn't exist for them. I guess it could be as simple as being unable to interact with natural objects that aren't in the biome that you were born in.

Why the fuck would you do this though? let tribes fight other biomes over resources instead

please, chill with the lame ideas, variation is great but not if everything is locked.
We want MORE not LESS, we want REALISM not GIMMICKS

Yes. A thousand times yes.

I know Jason want to fix the lack of trade and private property, so he's throwing around crazy ideas to see what works, but invisible rabbits and magic gates are not the answer. The thing that draws me back to OHOL is the way it allows people to interact with a relatively realistic world with real people in real ways. I like that you add dirt to the potatoes and you dig them out with a shovel. I like that you break open squash with an axe and add the ingredients, one by one, into a stone crock to make stew. I like that things are more or less sensible, but not always intuitive. It makes it fun to teach people in-game, because if they try to do it on their own, they are probably doing it wrong, but once you explain the right way to do it, then it usually makes sense.

I don't think biome-locked crafting would improve the game. And I really doubt it would work as intended. There are much better solutions to this problem that would take as much or less work to implement.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-04-26 16:14:28)

pein · 2019-04-26 16:19:06

this sounds so bad

you really have to rework biomes if you want differences between them, like each must be sels sustainable but different strengths and weaknesses

you said you don't want skill system
maybe you should have but very simplified
i don't like skill systems based on luck or genetics
part of specialization is to want that job
despite being a survival game, it became suicide simulator
now if you don't get the smith ability you suicide?

i seen a family who waited a baby who can smith, they did all the prep work, like branches and iron gathered, but they just couldn't do it
i came and made tools happily for them, was very cute, they knew they need tools, and willing to help but unable to do it
bad enough i born a male, now if im a male who cant help the tech advancement without pestering some kid who wont even go out of camp?

now imagine that you come and cant do what you want cause you born in a desert tile

people cnat really control where a abby is born, most of them born near the fire so all would be the same

trade needs personal property not personal space
with fences, everything you can hoard is yours?

you cant get rid of sharing, as your game is pretty much that: you born as eve, you got kids, you ty to make a camp together, even things like "you own this" requires the knowledge of the person to do so

what about a crafting bench which allows you to craft items
that way you personalize things, client side everything else looks different a bit, like more gray, the ones you made are more colorful
but if people need to allow each item to be used by others is stil la big issue

you might want to categories that are shared and some that are private
what people want:
clothes
weapons
horse
cart
trade between families would be different, they could own things together and not interact with other family things until bought
but then there is the death which brigns up the question of the vultures
should a baby own clothes lost by others right away?
or maybe repair,, wash them before?

telling someone to make something for you often takes more time than doing yourself

again i see the problem of the step by step craft

i think everything should be visible by others, maybe masked, some way of crafting things from start to end
crft a snare and you own it if you made the milkweed and got stakes for it, maybe log the actions with it
if multiple people add to it then is shared
others can move items what they don't own, maybe a few tiles at a time, to clear space
food shouldn't be owned, at least the non processed things like berry, carrot and the garbage like tomatoes
then people would have things others cant use so for ownershi they need to trade, convince or kill

Booklat1 · 2019-04-26 16:39:53

ill be honest with you guys, huge biomes arent needed. Big? Yes, but not to the point to disable combos. Our 6 biomes could hypothetically get as big as to only border 2 others. That's 6x5x4 combos we'd get, this time for bigger, more viable biomes. And each time a biome is added the number spikes!

This is much better than reworking every biome from bottom to top (though some redesign is good too)

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-04-26 16:42:29)

Ilka · 2019-04-26 16:58:08

Twisted wrote:

This would require a complete tech tree overhaul and it sounds like a worse version of Stylin's suggestion. It's also incredibly gamey and it would do nothing to encourage trade.
The problem with both suggestions is that there will always be a best biome and most people will just die until they spawn there.
Also the game just doesn't have enough players to make this work.

The Stylinegirl version is great but very labor-intensive for Jason.

I will try to explain what I mean.

Eve spawns in some kind of biomass, it becomes immediately mountainous or swampy Eve.
And all her descendants are mountain or swamps people(even if they are born in a different biomass).

Each tribe will have the unique opportunity to create an object.

It can not be anything very complicated but useful, for example, a backpack that can accommodate 5 items. Nobody but the savanna tribes will be able to make such backpacks.

But everyone will be able to make ordinary backpacks.

And any tribe can live wherever they want.

Birthplace of Eve decides only about the additional skills of her descendants.

Then tribes can trade unique items with each other.

Quite simple to implement.

Matbat · 2019-04-26 18:02:03

Ilka wrote:

Each tribe will have the unique opportunity to create an object.
It can not be anything very complicated but useful, for example, a backpack that can accommodate 5 items. Nobody but the savanna tribes will be able to make such backpacks.
But everyone will be able to make ordinary backpacks.
And any tribe can live wherever they want.
Birthplace of Eve decides only about the additional skills of her descendants.
Then tribes can trade unique items with each other.
Quite simple to implement.

Jason. If you want war, if you want trade, this is the simplest way to implement it.
Give eves this ability, to create one specialty item (and pass it down through their lineage), and you will very well see people settle in whichever place their eve is specialized. People will come and go for trade because they want a little edge, or they will kill and plunder and enslave people of the tribe/town for it.
You want your vision? I think this may enable it. People want more, not to be needlessly locked out of things they have trained in for the past year because they spawned in the wrong town.
(This and making the eve spiral tighter, for the ability to trade.)

Last edited by Matbat (2019-04-26 18:03:17)

Tarr · 2019-04-26 18:14:09

Matbat wrote:

Jason. If you want war, if you want trade, this is the simplest way to implement it.
Give eves this ability, to create one specialty item (and pass it down through their lineage), and you will very well see people settle in whichever place their eve is specialized. People will come and go for trade because they want a little edge, or they will kill and plunder and enslave people of the tribe/town for it.
You want your vision? I think this may enable it. People want more, not to be needlessly locked out of things they have trained in for the past year because they spawned in the wrong town.
(This and making the eve spiral tighter, for the ability to trade.)

The problem is I bet the specialization thing would be solved within a day or two unless they were all about equal in strengths. This just leads to everyone picking the same specialization except on something like server restart where a bunch of Eves can just decide together who is going to focus on what thing so everyone benefits from everything.

If the things are too strong people will just suicide until they get the lineage buff they want. If they're too weak everyone will just pick the same specialization.

futurebird · 2019-04-26 18:30:37

Tarr wrote:

The problem is I bet the specialization thing would be solved within a day or two unless they were all about equal in strengths.

This community loooove to optimize and run the numbers. If any biome had even a small advantage it would be discovered and some optimal play meta would evolve. And... gosh I'd be all over it I cannot resist such things.

futurebird · 2019-04-26 18:32:17

Honestly I'm generally impressed that playing as male or female has been balanced enough to mostly resist such optimization. But making 6 biomes balance without making them samey samey isn't an easy ask. It's kind of like "please design a whole new game similar to the one we have now"

Booklat1 · 2019-04-26 18:34:28

futurebird wrote:

Tarr wrote:
The problem is I bet the specialization thing would be solved within a day or two unless they were all about equal in strengths.
This community loooove to optimize and run the numbers. If any biome had even a small advantage it would be discovered and some optimal play meta would evolve. And... gosh I'd be all over it I cannot resist such things.

that's yet another reason for combos over complete individual viability

what is easier to figure out 6 or 6x5x4 possible metas? huge full viable biomes are a bad idea

Matbat · 2019-04-26 18:40:28

Tarr wrote:

The problem is I bet the specialization thing would be solved within a day or two unless they were all about equal in strengths. This just leads to everyone picking the same specialization except on something like server restart where a bunch of Eves can just decide together who is going to focus on what thing so everyone benefits from everything.
If the things are too strong people will just suicide until they get the lineage buff they want. If they're too weak everyone will just pick the same specialization.

Thing is, sure you can just be in the one generally accepted 'best' specialization, but you might still want to sell your iron to the badlands people because they produce twice as much steel, or selling your wheat to the swamp people because they can make 4 slot baskets. What I am saying is that this would encourage people to seek out all the types of people (maybe along the lines of that "one eve" thing, there would be 1 specialized eve per biome, and if a line in a certain biome expires a new eve spawns with that specialization to take their place.) to make your family, your town, the most well rounded one with the best chance of survival.

(If there were 1 eve per biome with their specialization it would also mean a larger population for the few towns that would exist.... of course you could just take one female from each line and put them in one city, but then they would all be at a slight disadvantage because they wouldn't have the easiest access to the materials that make them special.
For a bit of clarification I'm not saying make each of the biomes viable, just give certain lines advantages with a single biome to prioritize/encourage settling near-er to it)

Last edited by Matbat (2019-04-26 18:43:32)

Kinrany · 2019-04-26 20:56:58

Each person could have different temperature tolerance. So you'd be able to catch rabbits in foreign biome, but it'd cost more than trading.

Last edited by Kinrany (2019-04-26 20:57:20)

Spockulon · 2019-04-26 21:22:09

Kinrany wrote:

Each person could have different temperature tolerance. So you'd be able to catch rabbits in foreign biome, but it'd cost more than trading.

Passed on genetically?

BladeWoods · 2019-04-26 23:00:13

I think even if this idea was implemented and pulled off perfectly it still wouldn't work because there's not enough players. Towns are already small, if the tech tree and players are split into 7 there's going to be very few people of each race making it impossible to do anything.

Having players with different temperature tolerances is however something I think has a bit more potential. A snow people could still travel to swamp for clay, go to rabbitlands for rabbits, and travel to badlands for iron, but it would be best for them to live in the snow biome or else they overheat. But you would still need to make snow biomes more useful or no one will like being snow people. Snow biomes are almost useless right now.

GreatShawn · 2019-04-27 00:28:44

OMG YES! I suggested this once! Now Jason listened!

Bob 101 · 2019-04-27 01:10:44

What if everybody could still do everything but biome natives can do some things efficiently. If you do have biome specific stuff it shouldn't hinder anyone but make life easier if you have them

Jungle dwellers can take 2 rubbers from 1, They can also grow any of the tree's in the jungle.

Savanna dwellers can restore rabbit holes faster. Feed single rabbit a carrot and they turn back to family faster. They also have to wait less when snaring rabbit.

Snow dwellers have boosted fishing chances and reduced chance of net/rod breaking.

Swamp dwellers can dig empty clay pits to access deeper clay. They could also get reeds to regrow.

Mountain dwellers can get more iron from veins. Maybe they can even go into caves which are far denser in resources then the surface.

Desert dwellers can dig for water/oil sources in the desert. They also have better chances of striking oil when drilling.

And I think people should only get biome bonuses if they have lived within a biome or near for a few generations.

Say Eve automatically has bonus for the biome she spanws in. As long as she her kids are born within a certain range of said biome then they will have benefits too.

As long as people are being born near the right biome then benefits are passed down. Now say a girl runs away and builds somewhere else, Her kids won't get any bonus but her grandkids will if they are also born in the new place.

PS: Make towns closer to each other.

Last edited by Bob 101 (2019-04-27 01:56:04)

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