Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

BladeWoods · 2019-04-22 23:36:20

We've got ultra expensive cars and even planes and I assume as more tech tree content is released they'll be more and more things that use iron and tons of it.

None of these things will be practical as long as iron is as limited as it is now. Cars are already extremely impractical (they suck) and are only made for fun. But since iron is the bottleneck resource for limiting the longevity of the town (a limit that isn't even ever currently reached) the amount of iron can't be massively increased with a new iron mine tier or whatever unless we no longer want any reasonable limit on the longevity of a town.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-04-23 00:30:59)

Booklat1 · 2019-04-22 23:40:05

its bad as the only bottleneck

we need more of those, preferably alternating by each game stage

personally i'd like mines to be upgradeable so cars arent so rare

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-23 01:00:40

Yeah, I see the problem.

This is (always) the hardest part of a game's design.

I'm hoping to keep one core limiting resource, instead of multiple parallel ones, to make it easier to reason about.

Maybe iron is the wrong one.

Water might be a more natural one (though a stranger one logically, because ground water is logically renewable). And there's a pretty clear progression of upgrades in water (pond to well to deep well to pump to oil pump, etc)

Though the other problem, currently, with water, is that higher tech (fuel pumps) now allows you to convert other renewable resources into water.

BladeWoods · 2019-04-23 01:15:55

My only thought on this is that maybe oil could be made into the bottleneck, but I agree it's a hard thing to design.

I'm really glad you've been so active on the forums lately Jason. It's nice to see a game dev like that.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-04-23 01:22:53)

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-23 01:44:44

Well, unfortunately, there's a trade-off between forum activity and actually drawing stuff and putting it in the game.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-23 01:46:06

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm hoping to keep one core limiting resource, instead of multiple parallel ones, to make it easier to reason about.

why should it be easy to reason about it? variation is so important

futurebird · 2019-04-23 01:52:33

Give gold more practical uses and make it the bottleneck. Here are some ideas:
-gold rings let you change your last name but you need to keep it on for 20 years to stick and they wear out after a long time
-gold needle and thread, ampule and gold knife can be used to heal snake wounds without venom
-gold used in a copper alloy to make telephone lines for linking towns
-etc.

I'm not convinced that bottle necks or scarcity are all that key TBH unequal distribution of higher tech resources (rubber, copper ore etc.) seem more like the ticket. Economies are not driven by global scarcity of any single thing, but pockets of relative scarcity. It should be reasonable to churn out whatever is easy to make in your town, pile it up and know that future gens can use that for trade. I make a rubber station and tons of tires, I feel confident that the other materials for things like cars will come from another town. But right now we only make what we need to use right away. That isn't manufacturing, that isn't mass production, so no economies of scale.

Milkweed is a global bottle neck. Iron will be a bottle neck if we ever get towns to last more than a day.

Also very glad to see you in the forums. BTW.

FeignedSanity · 2019-04-23 02:04:01

Booklat1 wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
I'm hoping to keep one core limiting resource, instead of multiple parallel ones, to make it easier to reason about.
why should it be easy to reason about it? variation is so important

Or it adds unnecessary complexity and makes it obtuse. I'm with Jason on this one.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-23 02:06:30

FeignedSanity wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:
I'm hoping to keep one core limiting resource, instead of multiple parallel ones, to make it easier to reason about.
why should it be easy to reason about it? variation is so important
Or it adds unnecessary complexity and makes it obtuse. I'm with Jason on this one.

variation is the base of selection, it is needed for competition to arise

also, more obtuse than half the techtree having no practical use?

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-04-23 02:07:32)

Thaulos · 2019-04-23 02:12:49

Ever thought about moving iron from random pickings on the floor to an actual mine that self regenerates from time to time?

GreatShawn · 2019-04-23 02:14:10

well we can make iron mines being upgraded by other resources that are not nessecarily rare, but you are goin to need a lot of them, like copper or zinc or other things. The iron mines can also have a limit, like after multiple upgrades it have to be abandoned becuase all the irons in the vein had ran out. So this make getting iron more interesting and can make use of the other resources in the game that currently dont have a lot of function. People can also then set up camps around iron veins instead of just people going out to find iron veins and building a road.

FeignedSanity · 2019-04-23 02:15:27

Booklat1 wrote:

FeignedSanity wrote:
Booklat1 wrote:
...
...
variation is the base of selection, it is needed for competition to arise

also, more obtuse than half the techtree having no practical use?

No, it is not needed. You can compete over one resource just fine. There is no explicit need for multiple competing resources, for competition to be necessary. That's just silly. Would it be more interesting? Possibly, but not necessarily.

And that's exactly my point. A lot of the tech tree is obtuse and difficult to balance (making everything viable) because it's so varied. Which I think is fine, because it's not tied to the survival of a civilization. That's where all the variation to keep things interesting comes from.

futurebird · 2019-04-23 02:17:38

The iron mine is so much fun. You never know how many you are going to get and I keep coming back to try that again. To have some complex process, like you build an engine and tracks and put them in the mine and you get a chance of an even bigger bonanza sounds really fun!

But, I think the linked goal here should be that things like cars can be mass produced. I want to see cars used to do work for villages like horses are used. Cars being an essential tool for older villages to get far flung resources...

Booklat1 · 2019-04-23 02:17:55

GreatShawn wrote:

well we can make iron mines being upgraded by other resources that are not nessecarily rare, but you are goin to need a lot of them, like copper or zinc or other things. The iron mines can also have a limit, like after multiple upgrades it have to be abandoned becuase all the irons in the vein had ran out. So this make getting iron more interesting and can make use of the other resources in the game that currently dont have a lot of function. People can also then set up camps around iron veins instead of just people going out to find iron veins and building a road.

thank you. Finite upgreadable iron is the best way to limit its production through time while still working as a depletion mechanic.

Dodge · 2019-04-23 05:25:47

OIL, iron mines could be upgradeable with a mining rig and give mined ressources like iron when firing the engine with kerosene,

Oil rigs would regenerate like the water wells did

But one oil rig wouldnt be enough to get sufficient iron for survival, so multiple would be needed which requires iron, to take it a step further the oil rig could deplete at some point and need to be upgraded to a deeper oil rig but that would require a lot more steel and advanced tech

So managing iron poorly would result in a serious lack of it and eventually no more of it at which point the apocalypse would be the only solution.

But managing it very well would mean we could build cars, planes etc but with still the possibility of managing the oil poorly and ending up with no iron and dying.

Last edited by Dodge (2019-04-23 05:32:08)

Amon · 2019-04-23 10:34:10

Yeah, there can be multiple different upgrades for iron mines;
First with a water pump.
Minecarts, and ladders...
Air compressors (for air and tools (you don't want tools that cause sparks in an envrionment with iffy gasses))
And so on...

Booklat1 · 2019-04-23 17:56:25

FeignedSanity wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
FeignedSanity wrote:
...
variation is the base of selection, it is needed for competition to arise

also, more obtuse than half the techtree having no practical use?
No, it is not needed. You can compete over one resource just fine. There is no explicit need for multiple competing resources, for competition to be necessary. That's just silly. Would it be more interesting? Possibly, but not necessarily.
And that's exactly my point. A lot of the tech tree is obtuse and difficult to balance (making everything viable) because it's so varied. Which I think is fine, because it's not tied to the survival of a civilization. That's where all the variation to keep things interesting comes from.

Thats not silly, that's the fucking premisse of darwinian selection

Upon the existing variation acts selection, which kills some and not others. Competition arises, as a behaviour, as an effective strategy to ensure ones survival/descendants survival.

i understand the design perspective you offer, but it doesnt foster competition, variation is extremely needed for that.

Glassius · 2019-04-23 22:09:51

I would say, a simple mine update would require each time a stanchion kit, at least a fence kit. It is to make a skeleton of underground corridors. You need new iron? Make new corridor, put there stanchion kit as skeleton.

If each iron gathering would require a new stanchion kit, you would need to establish a new city around the vein. You will finally have a city with great comparative advantage, so it would enable intervillage trading.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-04-22 23:36:20

Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#2 2019-04-22 23:40:05

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#3 2019-04-23 01:00:40

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#4 2019-04-23 01:15:55

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#5 2019-04-23 01:44:44

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#6 2019-04-23 01:46:06

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#7 2019-04-23 01:52:33

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#8 2019-04-23 02:04:01

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#9 2019-04-23 02:06:30

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#10 2019-04-23 02:12:49

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#11 2019-04-23 02:14:10

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#12 2019-04-23 02:15:27

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#13 2019-04-23 02:17:38

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#14 2019-04-23 02:17:55

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#15 2019-04-23 05:25:47

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#16 2019-04-23 10:34:10

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#17 2019-04-23 17:56:25

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

#18 2019-04-23 22:09:51

Re: Iron is a bad bottleneck resource

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