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This post is to respond Crumpaloo's second post of pip efficiency, but most importanly, some statements regarding mutton pie. But first a few points:
Got alot of info from the previous post so i thought id try to add and reorganize my thoughts on it in a separate one
So what ive learned so far is:
.Most people Start eating when they have about 2-4 pips left
.The less pips per bite a food has, the less pips it could potentially waste, however that does NOT mean you should completely disregard high pip foods
.A high pip value is not always 100% a wasteful thing, because most people eat between 2-4 pips a food that can give 18-16 pips would be ideal
.Foods that advertise to give 20 pips can only give 19 at most because the player can only have 20 pips in their pip meter max making them always waste at least one pip
. Alot more factors then just the pip efficiency affect the validity of any given food, however pip efficiency still has a substantial role in this
You said most people eat at 2-4 pips. That is bad data. You can't use data you gathered from forums alone to speak for most of the players. Most payers here are good. In fact, I'm sure noobs waste far more. This is a good point for your theory actually ( if you disconsider noobs also don't usually eat foods like milk)
That being said, how do you know how much food is being wasted each time?
Well, lets take a food with F total food for example. That food value is based on a cost so all F / C = cost efficiency. But Crumpaloo is right, from that value some can always be wasted (W). So F - W / C = Actual cost efficiency. Actual cost efficiency is the metric we should use to evaluate a food. If a food gets you 60 pips, has an average waste of 20 and costs 1 it's still more eficient then a food that costs 2 and has no waste. It's 40 against 30. 20 pips wasted weight less than doubling the cost.
Also, lets think of a food like mutton pie, 4 bites of 15. You get at least 4 food from each pie, each bite is wasted independently, so we can more accuratly represent the formula as number of bites x (pip per bite - Waste) / Cost = actual food efficiency. More bites per food amount does mean
more efficiency. Imagine how inneficient would mutton pie be if it was a pie with one bite of 60.
But how can we know how much a food will be wasted based on it's pip per bite? Take all the positive results of (- maximum number of pips + average number of pips when eating + pip per bite). If we assume most players are noobs and eat pies at half food it's a waste of 5 for each bite eaten (unlike 50 if pies only had one bite)
We have now a more accurate food value of each food in which Number of bites x (pips per bite - (- maximum food + average number of pips when eating + Number of pips). This is without the costs for the food, the closes to pure pip efficiency this far. Bear in mind you only use this formula when overeating, as its made to calculate the positive pip distance from the maximum when eating.
However, and this is where you should just really pay attention crumpaloo, lets add all costs together with an average wasting of 0 for berry rabbit pie. i'll round all costs to their water and soil equivalents when possible. Dough will only have it's water cost counted, and rabbits and mutton will have their costs ignored. Costs for using ovens are also ignored.
Rabbit berry pie with no waste:
4 x 18 / 0.25 dough + bowl of berries + rabbit. Since the costs can also be in soil/water we get 4 x 18 / 0.25 bowl of water +1 bowl of water + bowl of soil = 72/ 1,25 bowl of water + 1 bowl of soil
Mutton berry pie eaten at 10 pips:
4 x 10 / 0.25 dough + mutton. Converting it we get: 40 / 0.25 bowl of water
rabbit berry pie at 10 pips:
4 x 10/ 1,25 water + 1 bowl of soil
Eating a cooked rabbit at 10 pips + a bowl of berries:
10 (from the rabbit) + 6 x 5 /1 bowl of soil + 1 bowl of water
Rabbit pie eaten at 10 + berry bowl
4 x (14 -4) + 30 / 1 bowl of soil + 1.25 bowl of water
70 /1 bowl of soil + 1.25 bowl of water
Even at 0 waste berry rabbit pies are more costly then mutton pies with a 1/3 of waste. Berry rabbit pies are so so bad because it's just better to make a rabbit pie and eat the berries. In fact, like someone else told you in your second post, even with maximum waste it's beter to eat 6 x 1 + 4 x 1 from bowl of berries + rabbit pie than it is to eat 4 x 1 from rabbit berry pie. You may achieve no waste with extreme micromanagement by eating berry rabbit bowls, but that doesn't reflect in efficient usage of resources. In fact you'll waste food the moment you turn berries and rabbits into berry rabbit pies as you'd have to assume maximum efficiency from berry rabbit to beat rabbit pie + berries eaten at 10 pips. And it only beats it by 2 pips.
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This post is to respond Crumpaloo's second post of pip efficiency, but most importanly, some statements regarding mutton pie. But first a few points:
Crumpaloo wrote:Got alot of info from the previous post so i thought id try to add and reorganize my thoughts on it in a separate one
So what ive learned so far is:
.Most people Start eating when they have about 2-4 pips left
.The less pips per bite a food has, the less pips it could potentially waste, however that does NOT mean you should completely disregard high pip foods
.A high pip value is not always 100% a wasteful thing, because most people eat between 2-4 pips a food that can give 18-16 pips would be ideal
.Foods that advertise to give 20 pips can only give 19 at most because the player can only have 20 pips in their pip meter max making them always waste at least one pip
. Alot more factors then just the pip efficiency affect the validity of any given food, however pip efficiency still has a substantial role in this
You said most people eat at 2-4 pips. That is bad data. You can't use data you gathered from forums alone to speak for most of the players. Most payers here are good. In fact, I'm sure noobs waste far more. This is a good point for your theory actually ( if you disconsider noobs also don't usually eat foods like milk)
That being said, how do you know how much food is being wasted each time?
Well, lets take a food with F total food for example. That food value is based on a cost so all F / C = cost efficiency. But Crumpaloo is right, from that value some can always be wasted (W). So F - W / C = Actual cost efficiency. Actual cost efficiency is the metric we should use to evaluate a food. If a food gets you 60 pips, has an average waste of 20 and costs 1 it's still more eficient then a food that costs 2 and has no waste. It's 40 against 30. 20 pips wasted weight less than doubling the cost.Also, lets think of a food like mutton pie, 4 bites of 15. You get at least 4 food from each pie, each bite is wasted independently, so we can more accuratly represent the formula as number of bites x (pip per bite - Waste) / Cost = actual food efficiency. More bites per food amount does mean
more efficiency. Imagine how inneficient would mutton pie be if it was a pie with one bite of 60.But how can we know how much a food will be wasted based on it's pip per bite? Take all the positive results of (- maximum number of pips + average number of pips when eating + pip per bite). If we assume most players are noobs and eat pies at half food it's a waste of 5 for each bite eaten (unlike 50 if pies only had one bite)
We have now a more accurate food value of each food in which Number of bites x (pips per bite - (- maximum food + average number of pips when eating + Number of pips). This is without the costs for the food, the closes to pure pip efficiency this far. Bear in mind you only use this formula when overeating, as its made to calculate the positive pip distance from the maximum when eating.
However, and this is where you should just really pay attention crumpaloo, lets add all costs together with an average wasting of 0 for berry rabbit pie. i'll round all costs to their water and soil equivalents when possible. Dough will only have it's water cost counted, and rabbits and mutton will have their costs ignored. Costs for using ovens are also ignored.
Rabbit berry pie with no waste:
4 x 18 / 0.25 dough + bowl of berries + rabbit. Since the costs can also be in soil/water we get 4 x 18 / 0.25 bowl of water +1 bowl of water + bowl of soil = 72/ 1,25 bowl of water + 1 bowl of soilMutton berry pie eaten at 10 pips:
4 x 10 / 0.25 dough + mutton. Converting it we get: 40 / 0.25 bowl of waterrabbit berry pie at 10 pips:
4 x 10/ 1,25 water + 1 bowl of soilEating a cooked rabbit at 10 pips + a bowl of berries:
10 (from the rabbit) + 6 x 5 /1 bowl of soil + 1 bowl of waterRabbit pie eaten at 10 + berry bowl
4 x (14 -4) + 30 / 1 bowl of soil + 1.25 bowl of water
70 /1 bowl of soil + 1.25 bowl of waterEven at 0 waste berry rabbit pies are more costly then mutton pies with a 1/3 of waste. Berry rabbit pies are so so bad because it's just better to make a rabbit pie and eat the berries. In fact, like someone else told you in your second post, even with maximum waste it's beter to eat 6 x 1 + 4 x 1 from bowl of berries + rabbit pie than it is to eat 4 x 1 from rabbit berry pie. You may achieve no waste with extreme micromanagement by eating berry rabbit bowls, but that doesn't reflect in efficient usage of resources. In fact you'll waste food the moment you turn berries and rabbits into berry rabbit pies as you'd have to assume maximum efficiency from berry rabbit to beat rabbit pie + berries eaten at 10 pips. And it only beats it by 2 pips.
Ok the reason its at 2-4 pips and not something else IS because of the data i got and yeah sure more non-noobs are on this forum but noobs can still understand they need to eat at x amount of pips, this usually happens when the audio queue for being hungry goes off, this tells both noobs and non-noobs alike that its time to go eat which happens at around, you guessed it 2-4 pips. So no, you dont gotta be some super vet to get a audio queue that tells you when to eat.
Also trying to find the average amount of waste of a food is pointless, theres alot more factors that can lead to waste then just oh its pip value is x so it wastes y, thats not how it works, ive said in numerous posts that theres other factors and you even admitted yourself, this cut and dry formula is going to give you more incorrect information. So trying to nail down a ever changing factor is like hitting a bulls eye that always moves away from your dart.
As for the whole accounting for soil and water thing, good on ya, however my argument was never accounting for soil and water because unlike the point your trying to make, it was about how the bigger a item is, the more likely it was to be wasted, NOT about these external factors that you are only now bringing up, you wanna get into the nitty gritty? Sure go right ahead, just dont expect me to try to defend a point that you made up.
1,280 pips just by Making Pork Tacos, Possible 2,500 pips just by hunting turkeys, and yet, somehow, yall still eating berries, bruh.
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Your conclusions under the assumptions you took are what I and everyone else is telling you about though. They are wrong.
You insist mutton pie is wasteful. It's not. You waste food just by making berry rabbit pies. I'm not saying pip efficiency and waste aren't relevant, I am and everyone else was telling you to stop lookin at it alone and consider all the other various factors you mentioned (which my formula does and your posts did not).
The metric of pip efficiency is of fringe importance compared to costs, which I just demonstrated and you said you disconsidered. Again, mutton pie is a byproduct of compost that only really costs 0,25 water. Every single pip of it cost less than those of a berry rabbit pie, no matter how you look at it. It's better with and without waste. If we remove the soil cost of both pies we still have mutton with 160 food per water and berry rabbits with 57 for berry rabbit. That's without the soil cost, crumpaloo. Soil that is made in the same process that gives you mutton and dough.
You are defending youself saying I'm adding information you never brought up and these are exactly all the other factors that are important. These other factors not only matter but they show how little does "we should eat this pie at 1 life" weight compared to mutton pie being one of the biggest exploits in this game. My "cut and dry formula" demonstrates the opposite of what you failed to do when you "had a brain fart" trying to prove mutton was bad. I'm not getting nitty gritty with details, I'm telling you that the ideas you brought are incorrect and why.
Or would you rather keep paying 5 times as much resources to make food?
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Your conclusions under the assumptions you took are what I and everyone else is telling you about though. They are wrong.
You insist mutton pie is wasteful. It's not. You waste food just by making berry rabbit pies. I'm not saying pip efficiency and waste aren't relevant, I am and everyone else was telling you to stop lookin at it alone and consider all the other various factors you mentioned (which my formula does and your posts did not).
The metric of pip efficiency is of fringe importance compared to costs, which I just demonstrated and you said you disconsidered. Again, mutton pie is a byproduct of compost that only really costs 0,25 water. Every single pip of it cost less than those of a berry rabbit pie, no matter how you look at it. It's better with and without waste. If we remove the soil cost of both pies we still have mutton with 160 food per water and berry rabbits with 57 for berry rabbit. That's without the soil cost, crumpaloo. Soil that is made in the same process that gives you mutton and dough.
You are defending youself saying I'm adding information you never brought up and these are exactly all the other factors that are important. These other factors not only matter but they show how little does "we should eat this pie at 1 life" weight compared to mutton pie being one of the biggest exploits in this game. My "cut and dry formula" demonstrates the opposite of what you failed to do when you "had a brain fart" trying to prove mutton was bad. I'm not getting nitty gritty with details, I'm telling you that the ideas you brought are incorrect and why.
Or would you rather keep paying 5 times as much resources to make food?
Im not nor have i ever denied the importance of other factors, i simply made a post 90% about pip efficiency.
If you wanna talk about cost, time, or something else entirely go right ahead, otherwise if your trying to refer to my posts that only cover one of these factors compared to the rest, then i think your confusing the entire point of the original post.
1,280 pips just by Making Pork Tacos, Possible 2,500 pips just by hunting turkeys, and yet, somehow, yall still eating berries, bruh.
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Your original post suggested combos with green beams, of course we were going to tell you there are better foods. I read both posts, you intended to create some system to eat foods without waste and make combos. Great, but it'll be terrible if you use bad food for it.
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Your original post suggested combos with green beams, of course we were going to tell you there are better foods. I read both posts, you intended to create some system to eat foods without waste and make combos. Great, but it'll be terrible if you use bad food for it.
The whole combos thing was never the main idea of the post, the title even says "pip efficiency"
1,280 pips just by Making Pork Tacos, Possible 2,500 pips just by hunting turkeys, and yet, somehow, yall still eating berries, bruh.
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you do realize this is a formula to show you not only the average but worst and best case waste scenarios for each food with or without costs, right? You can still compare the waste of foods for each bte based on the amount of food the person has and disconsidering the costs. Toy with the formula a bit, I don't think you realize this is actually what you wanted.
Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-01-18 21:55:28)
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you do realize this is a formula to show you not only the average but worst and best case waste scenarios for each food with or without costs, right? You can still compare the waste of foods for each bte based on the amount of food the person has and disconsidering the costs. Toy with the formula a bit, I don't think you realize this is actually what you wanted.
Well its kinda hard to with both you and Alis shoving so much irrelevant information in my face.
1,280 pips just by Making Pork Tacos, Possible 2,500 pips just by hunting turkeys, and yet, somehow, yall still eating berries, bruh.
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How i this irrelevant, I literally gave you a tool to calculate this
The main thing that bugs me is that i dont know where the thresh-hold for pip efficeincy goes off, i mean of course smaller items are more pip efficeint then larger ones, but how many smaller foods would you need to add until the amount of average waste the larger food wastes equals out to the average pip value of the a bunch of the smaller foods? difficult stuff...
This formula allows you to change the values of bites, food amount and waste (based on number of pips and your food levels), all vaues that you can change and plot on a graphic or just compare. You could potentially do it to every food in the game for every value of waste you desired. But fuck me for also considering costs in my formula, I guess, didn't have to overcomplicate.
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How i this irrelevant, I literally gave you a tool to calculate this
Crumpaloo wrote:The main thing that bugs me is that i dont know where the thresh-hold for pip efficeincy goes off, i mean of course smaller items are more pip efficeint then larger ones, but how many smaller foods would you need to add until the amount of average waste the larger food wastes equals out to the average pip value of the a bunch of the smaller foods? difficult stuff...
This formula allows you to change the values of bites, food amount and waste (based on number of pips and your food levels), all vaues that you can change and plot on a graphic or just compare. You could potentially do it to every food in the game for every value of waste you desired. But fuck me for also considering costs in my formula, I guess, didn't have to overcomplicate.
When you bring up multiple external factors to try to trump just one factor of course its gonna look like those multiple factors are more important, and they could be, but when i intentionally am only talking about the effects of one factor, and then you try to use multiple to refute the validity of it in a senario you made up, that just makes me think you didnt even understand the point of the post at all. But then in another thread you say you admitted that the post was just about one factor being pip efficiency, SO THEN WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO BRING OTHER FACTORS IN IT TO REFUTE THE EFFECTS OF JUST ONE FACTOR? It makes no sense.
1,280 pips just by Making Pork Tacos, Possible 2,500 pips just by hunting turkeys, and yet, somehow, yall still eating berries, bruh.
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I've answered you there, it'll be easier to communicate in just ne post
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For those interested, I'd made a spreadsheet regarding scalable foods' cost-benefit. I like the idea of factoring in overeating, and Booklat1 has provided an equation for just that! Resource costs can be teased out, but I'm having trouble assigning labor costs to those resources - and I believe labor is the true cost since all resources are essentially as infinite as the map.
You might have also seen my food per iron and food per soil post.
see food per iron for current spreadsheet
The mess of numbers below should get formatted correctly when you copy it into a spreadsheet.
iron per 0.00176721277034092 0.0000279173646007817 0.0100009853187506 0.0050251256281407 0.00739613560761554 0.00251256281407035
Food (per crop) food per bite bites per crop #crop Soil Water (deisel) Till Axe Shovel Smith Straw Dung Skin pie (soil byproduct ) Skin (soil byproduct)
Berry 5 5 1 7 1 1 0.238772029562251 0.0596930073905628
Mango 18 9 2 8 3 10 0.716316088686754 0.179079022171688
D. Corn 5 5 1 4 1 1 1 0.238772029562251 0.0596930073905628
Popcorn 12 3 4 4 1 1 1 0.238772029562251 0.0596930073905628
D. Omelette 19 19 1 4 1 1 1 0.238772029562251 0.0596930073905628
D. Goose 20 10 2 4 1 1 1 0.238772029562251 0.0596930073905628
Wh. Milk 140 14 10 4 1 1 1 0.238772029562251 0.0596930073905628
Stew 224 14 16 1 2.45 3.45 2.45 1 0.584991472427516 0.146247868106879
Krout 60 6 10 3 4 4 4 0.955088118249005 0.238772029562251
Carrot 7 7 1 30 8 7 7 1.91017623649801 0.477544059124503
Green bean bowl 24 4 6 5 6 6 6 1.43263217737351 0.358158044343377
Potato 12 6 2 4 2 1 1 10 0.477544059124503 0.119386014781126
Mutton 12 12 1 4 1.12380952380952 1.09047619047619 0.233333333333333 1 1 0.268334280841387 0.0670835702103468
carrot pie 28 7 4 4 3.06666666666667 2.93333333333333 1.93333333333333 1 0.732234223990904 0.183058555997726
berry carrot pie 60 15 4 4 4.9952380952381 4.86190476190476 1.93333333333333 1 1.19272313814667 0.298180784536669
Berry Pie 48 12 4 4 5.42857142857143 5.42857142857143 1 1 1.29619101762365 0.324047754405912
Bread or dough 64 8 8 1 2 2 1 1 0.477544059124503 0.119386014781126
Mutton Pie 60 15 4 4 3.12380952380952 3.09047619047619 1.23333333333333 1 1 1 0.74587833996589 0.186469584991472
bean burrito stack 114 19 6 1 4.2 5.2 2.7 1 1.00284252416146 0.250710631040364Maybe this will help or inspire someone.
But I wanna reemphasize: labor is the main cost of food, and depends on what is locally available. Long-term resource costs are irrelevant because lineages never live that long.
Last edited by betame (2019-02-04 15:19:25)
Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
List of Guides | Resources per Food | Yum? | Temperature | Crafting Info: https://onetech.info
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yeah, definitely saw your thread on iron, stuff like that inspired me to use my brain a bit in the first place lel.
I'll take a look at this data you got.
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Do you have a better way of defining waste mathematically betame? I used the positive distance from the maximum of 20 after accounting current pips + pip per bite, but i'm not really satisfied with it as it seems a bit clunky to me.
Nope, you've got the ideal formula. In your OP.
Last edited by betame (2019-01-19 05:46:42)
Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
List of Guides | Resources per Food | Yum? | Temperature | Crafting Info: https://onetech.info
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Nice. Might've made it better now.
What i get from pip efficiency is that it's supposed to be how likely it is that food is wasted by each bite, which we can use a function of waste based on the formula to find out: Fwaste(pips left) = -character maximum food + pips left + pip per bite. If we add all the values of fwaste and divide by character maximum food -1 we get an average of waste for all values. Or could go the other way around and find the value of food filled per bite which is pip per bite - waste, which really would make for a better account of efficiency. As long as we turn the formula into a function like Fpipusage(pips filled) = pips per bite - ( -max character food + pips filled + pips per bite), add all results and divide by max food -1 we get an average pip usage. Divide that by food per pip and we should get pip efficiency, right?
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Nice. Might've made it better now.
What i get from pip efficiency is that it's supposed to be how likely it is that food is wasted by each bite, which we can use a function of waste based on the formula to find out: Fwaste(pips left) = -character maximum food + pips left + pip per bite. If we add all the values of fwaste and divide by character maximum food -1 we get an average of waste for all values. Or could go the other way around and find the value of food filled per bite which is pip per bite - waste, which really would make for a better account of efficiency. As long as we turn the formula into a function like Fpipusage(pips filled) = pips per bite - ( -max character food + pips filled + pips per bite), add all results and divide by max food -1 we get an average pip usage. Divide that by food per pip and we should get pip efficiency, right?
If I'm understanding your approach right, you're taking the average of how many pips are actually filled by the food weighted equally across all scenarios of how many pips you started with when you ate it.
You'd get the % of potential pips that are actually consumed
assuming people eat the food at a random hunger, and that they're taking one bite rather than filling up to 20 with the food.
I think the pip efficiency, as I like to think of it, is more of a social problem of people needing to know when to eat which food.
Mutton pies could have a pip efficiency of 4/60 to 60/60 depending on how smart the player base is. But if I'm understanding your above approach, you'd rate it at 37.89/60
Morality is the interpretation of what is best for the well-being of humankind.
List of Guides | Resources per Food | Yum? | Temperature | Crafting Info: https://onetech.info
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Booklat1 wrote:Nice. Might've made it better now.
What i get from pip efficiency is that it's supposed to be how likely it is that food is wasted by each bite, which we can use a function of waste based on the formula to find out: Fwaste(pips left) = -character maximum food + pips left + pip per bite. If we add all the values of fwaste and divide by character maximum food -1 we get an average of waste for all values. Or could go the other way around and find the value of food filled per bite which is pip per bite - waste, which really would make for a better account of efficiency. As long as we turn the formula into a function like Fpipusage(pips filled) = pips per bite - ( -max character food + pips filled + pips per bite), add all results and divide by max food -1 we get an average pip usage. Divide that by food per pip and we should get pip efficiency, right?
If I'm understanding your approach right, you're taking the average of how many pips are actually filled by the food weighted equally across all scenarios of how many pips you started with when you ate it.
You'd get the % of potential pips that are actually consumed
assuming people eat the food at a random hunger, and that they're taking one bite rather than filling up to 20 with the food.I think the pip efficiency, as I like to think of it, is more of a social problem of people needing to know when to eat which food.
Mutton pies could have a pip efficiency of 4/60 to 60/60 depending on how smart the player base is. But if I'm understanding your above approach, you'd rate it at 37.89/60
I'm not sure if I should use number of bites in this calculation though, for me it seems indispensable, but crumpaloo says it's irrelevant to his idea. Maybe it realy is more of a food education thing, but if that is it, I don't see how practical that really is.
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I'm not sure if I should use number of bites in this calculation though, for me it seems indispensable, but crumpaloo says it's irrelevant to his idea. Maybe it realy is more of a food education thing, but if that is it, I don't see how practical that really is.
Number of bites matter.
I don't think that Crumpaloo has a firm idea of what "pip efficiency" means in his own mind, so I wouldn't focus too hard on following the restrictions he placed on the concept. The term itself is misleading, because he was really focused on waste potential, not food efficiency. From what I can determine, he was developing a theory of food waste based on a few core assumptions about eating behavior that are pretty shaky and the meaning of the term continued to evolve over the course of his posts as flaws were pointed out and refuted.
If the goal is to compare foods in OHOL for waste potential, the number of bites available in a food places a hard cap on the max waste potential. Comparing green beans, sauerkraut, and turkey broth, each of these foods provide 12 total pips, but they are distributed over a different number of bites. So turkey broth gives you all 12 pips in one bite and sauerkraut divides those twelve pips between two 6 pip bites, while green beans (and popcorn) deliver 3 pips per bite in a bowl with four uses. If you consume these foods when you have more than 12 empty pips on your bar, there is no waste, but if you have less than 12 pips remaining, there will be less overall waste from overeating with the smaller bite foods.
A big part of actual in-game waste is behavior-related. Will someone take two servings of turkey broth immediately or will they hold off on eating if their hunger bar is mostly full? Will someone choose to eat a "small bite" or "large bite" food when they are young/old and they have a small hunger bar? Will someone sit in the bakery and eat all the pies because their mother abandoned them as a baby to bake pies for her starving village? Or will that person choose to stand around in a berry patch built on a tundra and eat all the berries instead?
From reading Crumpaloo's posts, I think that his original pip efficiency theory was actually trying to address a perceived behavior problem by changing the village's staple food to something that would allowed for less waste, despite bad behavior. Basically "idiot-proofing" the food supply with a low-value, low waste potential food stock for everyone, since anyone could be a food-wasting slacker. His theory assumes that the "average player" (aka bad noob) would always choose to eat until unable to eat anymore. So once they were triggered to eat, they would not stop consuming until their bar was full. This means that a mutton pie is problematic and "wasteful" because if you are an adult with a 20 pip bar and you eat your first bite of 13-pip mutton pie at 2 pips, you will reach 17 pip ... and immediately consume a second bite of mutton pie, wasting 12 pips of food. In contrast, if you eat a rabbit/berry pie, you will reach 20 pips without any waste and go back to work. Or if you could eat three bowls of sauerkraut, six bowls of popcorn, or a bowl of turkey broth and a bowl of popcorn, for the same net effect. I think this is why his list of "good foods" looks so strange to a player who takes into account factors like resource cost and number of bites. In his mind, I think there's no difference in pip efficiency between eating six bowls of popcorn or eating a berry-rabbit pie, as long as the end result is no waste.
But if you want a comprehensive formula for calculating waste potential for different food items, you need to compare the actual values provided by different foods and the cost of producing those foods to reach a genuine "pip efficiency" value that reflects the most cost-effective food with the lowest waste potential. That includes number of bites, not just the base value of the food. A big part of why mutton pie, and meat pies in general, are so powerful is related to the number of bites that they have, not just their pip value. The higher number of bites creates a portable food with a very high "pip density". A portable food with only one use can only provide up to 19 useful pips and has a minimum value of 1 pip, assuming max wastage. While a food item, like gooseberry bowl, has a max value of 30 pips and a minimum value of 6, because even if you waste all the berries by eating early, you will still restore six pips. In terms of pip efficiency, the berry bowl looks much better than bean burritos or turkey drumstick or cooked fish. I just wish it fit in my back-pack ...
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yes, what I found in my calculations is that you have to waste 3/4 of a mutton pie before it's better t produce popcorn, the alternative crumpaloo gave. That is only with water costs, popcorn also costs soil.
Even with max waste you get stuff like bowl of berries + rabbit pies being better than alternatives they suggested like berry rabbit pie.
try playing with the formula in the OP, the foods we already eat are better even with waste. I even came up with a way to find the average food per pip per bite (which I would indeed change to consider the number of bites if evaluating a food whole).
I don't see how any of this should be a sound consideration when making food. Not when you can turn 0.25 water in a mutton pie.
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I still don't understand why all this effort around low vs high pip foods.
Popcorn at 15x YUM > Anything at no YUM
Every food is viable and should be made for YUM.
Eat a slice of rabbit berry pie at 14 YUM and two pips left and tell me it's not the greatest thing ever. Probably go the rest of your life without eating.
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I still don't understand why all this effort around low vs high pip foods.
Popcorn at 15x YUM > Anything at no YUM
Every food is viable and should be made for YUM.
Eat a slice of rabbit berry pie at 14 YUM and two pips left and tell me it's not the greatest thing ever. Probably go the rest of your life without eating.
this is only relevant after you can reliably get a lot of food. Sure, food at 15 yum is good, but you have to eat a lot of bad food for that to happen. And for what, to make one bite of popcorn worth 18? The other bites will most likely still be a 3 as you wont eat and break yum. If you compare 3 x 3 + 3+15 it's still less than pie at 4 x 15, for a bigger cost in soil.
So no, popcorn isn't better at 15 yum than mutton pies. Getting 27 food worth of 1/4 bowl of water + 1/4 bowl of soil is always worse than getting 60 food worth of 1/4 bowl of water. You'd have to waste more than half the pies for them to be worse.
Even if you share popcorn with fellow yumers, to get to 60 food of a pie you need all to be at Y yum where 60 = 4 x (3 + Y), so at 12 yum. You need four people at 12 yum to make this worth it.
Funnily enough in the example you gave with rabbit berry we have 3 x 18 + (18 +14), 86 food. If you make rabbit pies plus bowl of gooseberries that is 4x14 + 6x5, also 86 food, assuming you didn't yum a single time (which is unlikely eating rabbit pies, bowl of gooseberries and gooseberries)
bad food is not worth it, build yum with good stuff only as a boy, as a girl it's worth wasting rsources on bad food to increase baby chanc.
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yes, what I found in my calculations is that you have to waste 3/4 of a mutton pie before it's better t produce popcorn, the alternative crumpaloo gave. That is only with water costs, popcorn also costs soil.
Even with max waste you get stuff like bowl of berries + rabbit pies being better than alternatives they suggested like berry rabbit pie.
try playing with the formula in the OP, the foods we already eat are better even with waste. I even came up with a way to find the average food per pip per bite (which I would indeed change to consider the number of bites if evaluating a food whole).
I don't see how any of this should be a sound consideration when making food. Not when you can turn 0.25 water in a mutton pie.
Exactly.
If anything, considering the numbers, I've come to the realization that it would be better to feed your whole village on pies (assuming you have a good baker who can keep up with demand), rather than having just the adults eat the pies. My original thought was that children and elders should eat popcorn or berries, so they are not "wasting" pips. But since these foods cost more to produce fewer pips, the cost in time/resources ends up making it a wash. Mutton pies with half wasted or berries without any waste ... mutton pies are better. Rather than preaching at kids to stop wasting food by eating pies, we should be educating adults to stop wasting water and labour by eating from berry bushes. Berry consumption is the more wasteful behavior.
You cannot have a village without berry plants and some berry eating will inevitably happen, but experienced players should view berry eating on a similar level as carrot eating. Once you have sheep, stop eating berries/carrot and switch over to a mutton pie-based diet as soon as possible. You are not saving pips by eating popcorn or berries when you coild be making milk from the corn or more sheep/wheat for mutton pies from the berries/carrots.
Once your pie situation is looking good, additional options open up for yum, like rabbit pie or rabbit carrot pie, or bread from excess wheat. And bowl of berry, gooseberry, or popcorn to stretch yum further for the mothers ... but that is only when you already have a ton of meat pies and most people should just be eating them.
I should also add that any pie with "berry" in the name is a piss-poor investment. Do not make these pies ever. The additional pips created by combining the bowl of berries into a pie is minimal and you lose out on yum.
Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-01-19 20:17:25)
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Rather than preaching at kids to stop wasting food by eating pies, we should be educating adults to stop wasting water and labour by eating from berry bushes. [..] You cannot have a village without berry plants and some berry eating will inevitably happen, but experienced players should view berry eating on a similar level as carrot eating. Once you have sheep, stop eating berries/carrot and switch over to a mutton pie-based diet as soon as possible.
Oh, lord, I just realized you are right. In the typical village where you have a surplus of mutton and threshed wheat (because soil demand required making compost but pie consumption has not kept up), the surprising result is that NO ONE should eat berries. Not even children. Not even noobs who eat as soon as they lose a single pip. ALL of those players, as wasteful as they are, should eat mutton pies instead of berries.
Say you have a bunch of noobs to feed. Say they are going to eat something as soon as they lose one pip. Say you need to feed them 48 times (to make the numbers nice and round; imagine feeding 12 different noobs four times each if that helps).
To replenish their bar by one pip, they either need 48 berries (i.e. seven bushes) or twelve pies. Each berry fills their bar and wastes four pips. Each bite of pie fills their bar and wastes fourteen pips.
Seven bushes:
Resources: seven water, seven soil
Effort: gather seven water and seven soil
Twelve pies:
Resources: three water, one kindling
Effort:
. Gather three water, three bowls of wheat, twelve mutton, one kindling
. Make three flour, make three dough, put dough on twelve plates, put mutton on twelve pies
. Light oven, bake twelve piesEven at its absolute most wasteful, it's better to feed people with mutton pies than with berries if you have surplus mutton and wheat lying around. It uses fewer resources, although perhaps more effort (although quite honestly I'd rather bake twelve pies than tend seven bushes, it might take a bit longer but it's more fun).
Eating pies instead of berries when all the surplus wheat and mutton has run out is a different matter. At that point you have to factor the following into the cost of twelve pies: the six soil, three water, and three tillings required by the three wheat, plus the effort of planting and harvesting wheat and feeding and slaughtering sheep. It's still pretty close, and if you assume these children / noobs are good enough that will actually delay eating until they need two berries to fill them up rather than only one, then once again feeding them pies comes out on top.
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Sure, food at 15 yum is good, but you have to eat a lot of bad food for that to happen. And for what, to make one bite of popcorn worth 18? The other bites will most likely still be a 3 as you wont eat and break yum.
You start gaining YUM bonus immediately so even at 8 YUM you're experience huge gains that cost nothing and filling your food meter beyond max which alone is a huge advantage.
Every town will have a variety of foods and walking around town munching only mutton pies with a dozen different foods around is the the ultimate waste.
Trying to force a META just because its efficient is counter to the game mechanics (YUM) and the basic of crafting different things.
Please don't stab me if you see me making a berry rabbit pie. They're delicious.
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Please don't stab me if you see me making a berry rabbit pie. They're delicious.
Berry rabbit pie is tasty, but carrot rabbit pie tastes just as good and costs less. So I recommend making it first, even if you care about food variety more than food efficiency.
I don't mind players who eat lees efficient foods for yum. However, it is usually hard to distinguish between someone who is intentionally stretching their yum bonus by eating a carrot and someone who doesn't know that carrots are "bad food".
My default assumption is they don't know any better and need to be educated. It isn't a stabbing offense, just an opportunity to share the secrets of compost cycling.
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