Food per Iron (Long-term) Math

betame · 2018-12-04 19:02:29

I spent some time removing sources of error from these sensitive calculations; hopefully this can help someone modeling this type of thing in the future. When dividing by small numbers, the sensitivity to error is huge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0ZRvvHfF0E 
Anyway, I want to help make my calculations clear to anyone who’s learned how to solve systems of linear equations (high school or college algebra). I want to demystify these results, so you can check them yourselves.

In most gameplay, labor > iron. If your lineage dies before iron is scarce, then its all about saving labor hours to give you more time to help your kids. Currently wondering how to quantify labor costs

Typo in formula with berry carrot pie ~1% error.
April20 Changes to shovel for potatoes and dung. I'll update it later
Latest Update:
Shovel is now used two full times per compost (~566 -> 419 soil per iron). Potato was slightly improved.

     Food/iron (diesel)  Skin	Straw	Dung
Wh. Milk	46,640	  4.8		
Mango		25,242	 24.2		
Berry		20,446	 24.7		
Mutton Pie	14,420	 60.1	50.6	 50.6
Mutton		12,767	212.5	 0.0	199.2
Berry Pie	11,730	 14.1	43.5	
B-C pie		 9,989	  9.6	32.1	
D. Goose	 7,660	  4.8		
D. Omelette	 7,335	  4.8		
Stew		 6,454	  3.6		
Bread		 6,292	  8.1	67.9	
carrot pie	 5,876	  6.9	37.7	
Popcorn		 5,061	  4.8		
Krout		 4,818	  4.8		
bean burritos	 4,721	  6.8	40.7	
Carrot		 3,664	  5.4		
Green beans	 2,788	  4.8		
D. Corn		 2,788	  4.8		
Potato		   981	  1.5

The idea behind the calculations is a late-game civ with all the tools made, plus a water pump. The only non-renewable resource needed for food is iron.

Assumptions:

No YUM bonus or overeating
Round stone is used to pound hammer heads/ iron
Dung from lambs, not shorn sheep
Central fire exists with negligible iron
Coal for forging uses negligible iron ~calculated 1% reduction if using one coal per tool
Kindling for baking uses negligible iron
Steel tools are used instead of iron-efficient stone tools
Whenever a compost is made, 4 mutton pies are cooked but the sheepskin is not counted toward shrimp food

By recycling broken tools, you reduce iron consumption by 1/2 long-term. The hammer uses are mandatory, but there's a small extra cost from making kindling for the forge, depending on the smith's skill. may re-add 1/3 axe (for coal) used per steel

201 hammer uses = 0.5 iron
101 axe uses = 0.5 iron + 1 hammer use
51 hoe uses = 0.5 iron + 2 hammer uses
41 shovel uses = 0.5 iron + 8 hammer uses

therefore:

Iron/smith = 0.00248756218905473...
Iron/chop = 0.00497512437810945...
Iron/till = 0.00990147302702175...
Iron/dig = 0.0126804999393278...

With pumps fueled by kindling, water costs a fraction of an axe use.
Iron/water (Deisel) = 0.000024268899405412...
Iron/water (NC Kerosene) = 0.0000432619511139952...
Iron/water (NC Coal) = 0.000248756218905473...

Every time we till the ground, we lose ~0.01 iron. Every time we chop, smith, or dig anything we lose iron. But how much iron do we use to make our food?
Tool usage for farming gets a little tricky because the compost cycle interconnects everything, but its just a big system of linear equations, which can be represented by the matrix:

soil   berry  carrot  grain   straw   dung   mutton    pie    skin    water    dig    till
21	-6	-1	0	-1	-1	0	0	0	-1	-2	0   (composting)
-1	7	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	-1	0	0   (berry farming)
-8	0	30	0	0	0	0	0	0	-7	0	-7  (carrot farming)
-2	0	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	-1	0	-1  (wheat farming)
0	-6	-1	0	0	1	4	1	0	0	0	0   (feeding lamb)
0	0	0	-1	0	0	-4	0	4	-1	0	0   (baking pie)

We first have to make soil. Through linear substitution (see this tool https://www.emathhelp.net/calculators/l … aclulator/), the first line can be turned into this:

(154/1759 till) + (210/1759 dig) + (544/1759 water) = 1 soil + (420/1759) mutton pie (+105/1759 sheepskin) dig coefficient out of date

Meaning whenever we make soil, we also end up producing sheepskins and the ingredients for mutton pies.

If growing berries,
1 soil + 1 water = 7 berries
Or 1 soil = 7 berries - 1 water
To turn our soil into food, we literally substitute this berry-growing equation into our soil-making equation. We can also convert tool&water uses into iron.

(154/1759 till)*Iron/till + (210/1759 dig)* Iron/dig + (1 + 544/1759 water)*Iron/water = 7 berries + (420/1759) mutton pie (+105/1759 sheepskin)

with a diesel engine,
1 iron = 14,508 berry food + 5,938 pie food (+ ~24.7 sheepskin)

If we're growing things like carrots where some plots are dedicated to seed, and others become hardened rows, the substitution is a little trickier:
8 soil + 7 till + 7 water = 6 plots of 5 carrots
1 soil = 30/8 carrots - 7/8 till - 7/8 water
1 iron = 2,371 carrot food + 1,294 pie food (+ ~5.4 sheepskin)

Overall, these numbers shouldn't affect how you play. I did this to prove it could be done.
Yes, some foods can be proven better than others at conserving iron. But so what? Food takes way less iron than other projects, so saving iron mostly isn’t about food. Just like in real life, most of the resources are used for vanity projects --- to please some of us, not feed all of us.

1 iron making food perfectly = 20,000+ food (and some sheepskin)
1 iron chopping firewood = a slow fire for 26+ hours
1 iron digging graves = 78 graves

Is it griefing to waste iron? …its annoying, but not necessarily civ-destroying because we never totally use up our iron sources; horsecarts allow us to mine from far away.

Current Resource Cost per Scalable Food:

Current Resource Cost per Scalable Food:

Bean burritos: 1 plate of 6 burritos of 19 food = 114 food + 1.5 straw
= 3/2 x (4 dough = 2 soil + 2 water + 1 till)
+ 1/5 x (5 bean bowl = 6 soil + 6 water + 6 till)
+1 water

Berry: 1 bush of 7 berries of 5 food = 35 food
= 1 soil + 1 water 

Berry Carrot Pie: 4 pies of 4 bites of 15 food = 240 food + 1 straw
= 24/7 x (7 berry = 1 soil + 1 water)
+ 4/30 x (30 carrot = 8 soil + 7 water + 7 till)
+ 1 x (4 dough = 2 soil + 2 water + 1 till)

Berry Pie: 4 pies of 4 bites of 12 food = 192 food + 1 straw
= 24/7 x (7 berry = 1 soil + 1 water)
+ 1 x (4 dough = 2 soil + 2 water + 1 till)

Bread: 8 slices of 8 food = 64 food + 1 straw
= 2 soil + 2 water + 1 till

Carrot: 30 carrots of 7 food = 210 food
= 8 soil + 7 water + 7 till

Carrot Pie: 4 pies of 4 bites of 7 food = 112 food + 1 straw
= 4/30 x (30 carrot = 8 soil + 7 water + 7 till)
+ 1 x (4 dough = 2 soil + 2 water + 1 till)

Corn: 4 corn of 5 food = 20 food
= 1 soil + 1 water + 1 till

Goose: 4 goose of 2 bites of 10 food = 80 food
= 1 soil + 1 water + 1 till

Green Bean Bowl: 5 bowls of 6 bites of 4 food = 120 food
= 6 soil + 6 water + 6 till

Kraut: 3 crock of 5 bowls of 2 bites of 6 food = 180 food
= 4 soil + 4 water + 4 till

Mango: 9 mango of 2 bites of 9 food = 144 food
= 3 soil + 10 water

Mutton: 4 mutton of 12 food = 48 food + 1 skin + 1 dung
= 6/7 x (7 berry = 1 soil + 1 water)
+ 1/30 x (30 carrot = 8 soil + 7 water + 7 till)

Mutton Pie: 4 pies of 4 bites of 15 food = 240 food + 1 straw + 1 skin + 1 dung
= 6/7 x (7 berry = 1 soil + 1 water)
+ 1/30 x (30 carrot = 8 soil + 7 water + 7 till)
+ 1 x (4 dough = 2 soil + 2 water + 1 till)  

Milk (whole) : at least 4 buckets of 10 bowls of 14 food = 560 food
= 1 soil + 1 water + 1 till
(+ 1 water for additional buckets)  

Omelette: 4 omelettes of 19 food = 76 food
= 1 soil + 1 water + 1 till

Popcorn: 4 bowls of 4 bites of 3 food = 48 food
= 1 soil + 1 water + 1 till

Potato: 4 potatoes of 2 bites of 6 food = 48 food
= 2 soil + 1 water + 1 till + 5 dig  

Stew: 1 pot of 8 bowls of 2 bites of 14 food = 224 food
= 1/4 x (4 corn = 1 soil + 1 water + 1 till)
+ 1/5 x (5 bean bowl = 6 soil + 6 water + 6 till)
+ 1 x (1 squash = 1 soil + 1 water + 1 till)
+ 1 water
+ 2 axe

Result: Food Spreadsheet (all calculation based on this)

per soil                418.71639782358    1    0.309266628766345    0.0875497441728255        0.119386014781126                    0.238772029562251    0.0596930073905628
iron per                418.71639782358    0.00238825134434151    0.000024268899405412    0.00990147302702175    0.00497512437810945    0.0126804999393278    0.00248756218905473                    
    Food (per crop)    food per bite    bites per crop    #crop    Soil    Water (deisel)    Till    Axe    Shovel    Smith    Straw    Dung    Skin    pie (soil byproduct )    Skin (soil byproduct)
Berry    5    5    1    7    1    1                                0.238772029562251    0.0596930073905628
Mango    18    9    2    8    3    10                                0.716316088686754    0.179079022171688
D. Corn    5    5    1    4    1    1    1                            0.238772029562251    0.0596930073905628
Popcorn    12    3    4    4    1    1    1                            0.238772029562251    0.0596930073905628
D. Omelette    19    19    1    4    1    1    1                            0.238772029562251    0.0596930073905628
D. Goose    20    10    2    4    1    1    1                            0.238772029562251    0.0596930073905628
Wh. Milk    140    14    10    4    1    1    1                            0.238772029562251    0.0596930073905628
Stew    224    14    16    1    2.45    3.45    2.45    2                        0.584991472427516    0.146247868106879
Krout    60    6    10    3    4    4    4                            0.955088118249005    0.238772029562251
Carrot    7    7    1    30    8    7    7                            1.91017623649801    0.477544059124503
Green bean bowl    24    4    6    5    6    6    6                            1.43263217737351    0.358158044343377
Potato    12    6    2    4    2    1    1        5                    0.477544059124503    0.119386014781126
Mutton    12    12    1    4    1.12380952380952    1.09047619047619    0.233333333333333                    1    1    0.268334280841387    0.0670835702103468
                                                            
carrot pie    28    7    4    4    3.06666666666667    2.93333333333333    1.93333333333333                1            0.732234223990904    0.183058555997726
berry carrot pie    60    15    4    4    4.9952380952381    4.86190476190476    1.93333333333333                1            1.19272313814667    0.298180784536669
Berry Pie    48    12    4    4    5.42857142857143    5.42857142857143    1                1            1.29619101762365    0.324047754405912
Bread or dough    64    8    8    1    2    2    1                1            0.477544059124503    0.119386014781126
Mutton Pie    60    15    4    4    3.12380952380952    3.09047619047619    1.23333333333333                1    1    1    0.74587833996589    0.186469584991472
bean burrito stack	114	19	6	1	4.2	5.2	2.7				1.5			1.00284252416146	0.250710631040364

Last edited by betame (2019-04-20 21:57:19)

Floofy · 2018-12-04 19:12:24

I'm a bit confused... Where is the mutton pie in all this? I believe mutton pie is BY FAR the most effective nutrition method in the game. I don't want to question your maths, but saying that berries is the second most effective food method in the game feels wrong.

lionon · 2018-12-04 19:19:50

Thanks I wanted to do that but was too lazy. Since the fallen from disgrace berries have the advantage of not needing a hoe. So this is a rehabilitation of the berry? Well as you said, mutton pie is a "by product" of soil generation anyway...

Most iron is used by idiocy tough. For example once saw a dude with a shovel on the bones field digging under all bones he found. He just wasted I guess generations of lifetime that town could have lived. On the other hand, I hardly seen town fall to iron scarcity. Mostly they fall of unlucky dice getting a generation of noobs (especially if it hits the female, who don't make it to adulthood, forgetting to eat, getting killed by boars. etc)

betame · 2018-12-04 19:21:14

Floofy wrote:

I'm a bit confused... Where is the mutton pie in all this? I believe mutton pie is BY FAR the most effective nutrition method in the game. I don't want to question your maths, but saying that berries is the second most effective food method in the game feels wrong.

Please DO question these calculations. I'll add top foods as requested. (except milk which should be the obvious winner, but the grain you feed the cow becomes 1-5 or so buckets.)
I started with the main ones that came to mind.

Floofy · 2018-12-04 19:24:56

lionon wrote:

Thanks I wanted to do that but was too lazy. Since the fallen from disgrace berries have the advantage of not needing a hoe. So this is a rehabilitation of the berry? Well as you said, mutton pie is a "by product" of soil generation anyway...
Most iron is used by idiocy tough. For example once saw a dude with a shovel on the bones field digging under all bones he found. He just wasted I guess generations of lifetime that town could have lived. On the other hand, I hardly seen town fall to iron scarcity. Mostly they fall of unlucky dice getting a generation of noobs (especially if it hits the female, who don't make it to adulthood, forgetting to eat, getting killed by boars. etc)

This is extremely true. With 1 life time in an advanced town i can almost single handily create food for like 10 lifetime, its just insane. Advanced towns almost always have insane supply of food, its never the issue. The reason towns die off is usually a mix of griefers, noobs, bad roll of dice. The proof of what i'm saying is when i spawn as eve in dead towns, there almost always is tons of food.

lionon · 2018-12-04 19:26:42

Things I'd like to know as well, domestic eggs (I don't know how many eggs you get from a bowl of corn, didn't do that yet) and yes whole milk.

Floofy · 2018-12-04 19:33:58

betame wrote:

Floofy wrote:
I'm a bit confused... Where is the mutton pie in all this? I believe mutton pie is BY FAR the most effective nutrition method in the game. I don't want to question your maths, but saying that berries is the second most effective food method in the game feels wrong.
Please DO question these calculations. I'll add top foods as requested. (except milk which should be the obvious winner, but the grain you feed the cow becomes 1-5 or so buckets.)
I started with the main ones that came to mind.

Ok here is a few more questions.

1): You are saying berries > berry pie as a food source. Where does this come from? Assuming there is actually wheat laying around (and there very often is from people making compost), berry pie is very clearly more effective than simple berries. (but just to be clear, i don't advise people to make berry pies). If your calculation implied that the pie force us to use soil for a wheat plant, keep in mind that this new wheat plant we planted will be able to be used for compost later anyways.

Floofy · 2018-12-04 19:35:10

lionon wrote:

Things I'd like to know as well, domestic eggs (I don't know how many eggs you get from a bowl of corn, didn't do that yet) and yes whole milk.

I mean what calculation is there for eggs? Aren't eggs literally free food? They just require 1 kindling, 1 stone, and plates.

lionon · 2018-12-04 19:56:29

Floofy wrote:

I mean what calculation is there for eggs? Aren't eggs literally free food? They just require 1 kindling, 1 stone, and plates.

*Domestic* eggs, you have to give a bowl of corn kernel to a domestic goose to get eggs.

lionon · 2018-12-04 20:01:35

Floofy wrote:

1): You are saying berries > berry pie as a food source. Where does this come from? Assuming there is actually wheat laying around (and there very often is from people making compost), berry pie is very clearly more effective than simple berries. (but just to be clear, i don't advise people to make berry pies). If your calculation implied that the pie force us to use soil for a wheat plant, keep in mind that this new wheat plant we planted will be able to be used for compost later anyways.

Because wheat requires a hoe usages and 2 soils for every wheat, while a berry bush only requires one soil.

Yes we already established that we had to take wheat and mutton as "side product" of compost generation and for this mutton pie is the most efficient, because it's exactly 1 sheep for 4 mutton for 4 pies from 1 wheat. So of course mutton pies is a must otherwise mutton or what will only pile up (as does happen often in failing towns).

There is also mutton pie generation as "side product" for replenishing baskets.

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-04 20:02:09

Iron is the ultimate limit to food production (and hence all other activity, regardless of what other resources it may use). And now that we have water pumps, it's the only such limit.

However, I have never seen a mature town with an iron shortage. This leads me to believe that there has never been a mature town that became abandoned due to lack of iron. I suspect that towns have always become abandoned due to other causes (most of them preventable), such as compost cycle failure, famine due to population surge exceeding capacity and reserves, bear attacks, murder, infertility, bad luck with baby sex ratios, mass migration, etc.

Until we reach the point where towns actually have iron shortages, iron can be considered effectively infinite... but even so, even now, iron is still expensive, and gets increasingly expensive as the nearby supplies get exhausted. Food (and everything else) can be measured in iron, but iron itself is best measured in labor - how many man-years does it take to find and bring back the next piece of iron ore? How many lives have to be dedicated to hauling iron instead of other, more entertaining activities?

Also, the value of something - iron, a shovel, a compost heap - depends not just on its cost, but also on its availability. When there's ten iron sitting in the smithy, then iron is cheap; when there's only one, it's incredibly dear. Same thing with tools. If there's only one shovel, then it's extremely valuable, no matter how much iron is lying around. Yes, you can make another one when it breaks... but making it takes time and talent, and many critical tasks are time-and-talent-sensitive. When it breaks, you may not have the luxury of waiting until a competent smith can be found, asked to make a new one, and given the time to do so.

So. Should you rage at the idiot who went and buried all the bones? If he used the only shovel, yes. Even moreso if it was the only shovel and the smith is out of iron. But if the forge is well-stocked and there's tools everywhere, then sure, go ahead, feel free to indulge in some civic beautification efforts.

betame · 2018-12-04 20:02:54

Floofy wrote:

Ok here is a few more questions.
1): You are saying berries > berry pie as a food source. Where does this come from? Assuming there is actually wheat laying around (and there very often is from people making compost), berry pie is very clearly more effective than simple berries. (but just to be clear, i don't advise people to make berry pies). If your calculation implied that the pie force us to use soil for a wheat plant, keep in mind that this new wheat plant we planted will be able to be used for compost later anyways.

The ranking is purely food per iron. Which is typically an irrelevant statistic. (Food per effort is hard to calculate though.) It's all about what you have available in your life.

Berry pies use more iron than just berries because wheat must be tilled.
The +42 straw is valuable; it represents helping the compost cycle or making straw hats or baskets. All of those activities will cause grain to accumulate for you to use in the breads/pies.

The equation for berry pie is
4 berry pie
192 food = 4 berry pie + 1 straw = 2 soil for wheat + 24/7 soil for berries + 1 water for wheat + 24/7 water for berries + 1 till + 1 water for dough

food per iron = ((420÷1759)×60)+(192÷(2+(24÷7)))÷(((154÷1759)+1÷(2+(24÷7)))×Iron/till+(210÷1759)xIron/dig+((1+1+(24÷7))÷(2+(24÷7))+(544÷1759))×Iron/water)

so I did forget the extra water for dough, but that only hurts things. I'll update.
I suppose I should post all of these equations. And I'm sure throwing it in a matrix would be most elegant.

Last edited by betame (2018-12-04 20:31:17)

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-04 20:09:29

btw, betame, thanks for running the numbers and posting your results. I love this kind of stuff!

Also worth noting that there are other limited resources besides iron, but they don't factor into long-run food production. Clay, big rocks, flat rocks... even wild animals. There's only so many bearskin rugs that can ever be made, for example. So if your tribe's one true desire is to tile the map with a checkerboard made of oven bases, stone blocks, roads, and bearskin floors, then eventually your desires will be frustrated.

However, like iron, these resources are effectively infinite but at the same time are expensive and become more expensive as they get used up.

---

Edit: I'm wrong. Bear caves respawn bears in twenty-four hours. So we can pave the entire map in bearskin-covered boards!

Last edited by CrazyEddie (2018-12-04 20:34:44)

betame · 2018-12-04 20:24:40

lionon wrote:

Things I'd like to know as well, domestic eggs (I don't know how many eggs you get from a bowl of corn, didn't do that yet) and yes whole milk.

From what I understand, you can get 1 egg (19 food) per corn vs popcorn which is 12 per corn.
So domestic eggs are 26,070 7,850 food/iron
Using the corn for milk yields at least one bucket of milk (140 food) if you keep it from separating, more if you put in the effort to eat buttered bread with skim milk.
I'll mark it as 192,000+ 57,800+

edit: had my corn math wrong by exactly 4:1

Last edited by betame (2018-12-08 15:00:27)

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-04 21:27:02

betame wrote:

And with the Newcomen Pump, 1 axe use = 40 water
Iron/water = 0.000125628140703518

Is it more iron-efficient to produce kindling with an axe, or with a stone hatchet?

Let me try the math:

One hatchet = four milkweed = eight soil + four water + four tills [assuming sharp stone and straight branch are free]

(154/1759 till) + (210/1759 dig) + (544/1759 water) = 1 soil + (420/1759 mutton pie) + (105/1759 sheepskin)

(0.70039795338 till) + (0.95508811824 dig) + (2.47413303013 water) = 8 soil + (1.9101762365 mutton pie) + (0.47754405912 sheepskin)

One hatchet
= (4.70039795338 till) + (0.95508811824 dig) + (6.47413303013 water)
= 0.04700861092 iron + 0.01223271336 iron + 0.00081333329 iron
= 0.06005465757 iron
with (1.9101762365 mutton pie) + (0.47754405912 sheepskin) as an additional byproduct

One hatchet use = 1/41 hatchets

One hatchet use = 0.00146474774 iron
with 0.0465896643 mutton pie + 0.01164741607 sheepskin as an additional byproduct

One axe use = 0.0050251256281407 iron

So using an axe to create kindling instead of a hatchet uses not quite four times the iron, and sacrifices roughly four-and-a-half mutton pies and one sheepskin for each axe used.

Note that in the above calculation, the iron cost of water assumes you're using an axe for kindling, even though the calculation itself shows that it would be more iron-efficient to use a hatchet instead.

betame · 2018-12-04 22:39:03

CrazyEddie wrote:

betame wrote:
And with the Newcomen Pump, 1 axe use = 40 water
Iron/water = 0.000125628140703518
Is it more iron-efficient to produce kindling with an axe, or with a stone hatchet?
Let me try the math:
One hatchet = four milkweed = eight soil + four water + four tills [assuming sharp stone and straight branch are free]
(154/1759 till) + (210/1759 dig) + (544/1759 water) = 1 soil + (420/1759 mutton pie) + (105/1759 sheepskin)
(0.70039795338 till) + (0.95508811824 dig) + (2.47413303013 water) = 8 soil + (1.9101762365 mutton pie) + (0.47754405912 sheepskin)
One hatchet
= (4.70039795338 till) + (0.95508811824 dig) + (6.47413303013 water)
= 0.04700861092 iron + 0.01223271336 iron + 0.00081333329 iron
= 0.06005465757 iron
with (1.9101762365 mutton pie) + (0.47754405912 sheepskin) as an additional byproduct
One hatchet use = 1/41 hatchets
One hatchet use = 0.00146474774 iron
with 0.0465896643 mutton pie + 0.01164741607 sheepskin as an additional byproduct
One axe use = 0.0050251256281407 iron
So using an axe to create kindling instead of a hatchet uses not quite four times the iron, and sacrifices roughly four-and-a-half mutton pies and one sheepskin for each axe used.
Note that in the above calculation, the iron cost of water assumes you're using an axe for kindling, even though the calculation itself shows that it would be more iron-efficient to use a hatchet instead.

Good point!
I got the same result as you for the stone hatchet,
and likewise the stone hoe is more efficient too, by a factor of ~5; 0.00285974559932269 iron/stone hoe use

And used to farm their own rope, they'll be even more iron efficient, just not labor efficient, but that's relative whether its easier to look for stones and farm, or just mine iron.

I'll return with samples of how this affects things. Solved recursively:
iron/chop 0.000382811618990941
iron/smith 0.00248946672447259
iron/till 0.000747394113268027
iron/dig 0.0126902084247505
iron/water 0.00000957029047477352

Which changes the food/iron drastically to:
Mango    38,584
Berry    30,964
Popcorn    88,159
Carrot    18,068
Stew    42,293
krout    25,349

bread    23,555
Berry pie    24,566
mutton pie 35,961

Last edited by betame (2018-12-06 09:52:33)

Booklat1 · 2018-12-04 22:51:41

Floofy wrote:

lionon wrote:
Most iron is used by idiocy tough. For example once saw a dude with a shovel on the bones field digging under all bones he found. He just wasted I guess generations of lifetime that town could have lived. On the other hand, I hardly seen town fall to iron scarcity. Mostly they fall of unlucky dice getting a generation of noobs (especially if it hits the female, who don't make it to adulthood, forgetting to eat, getting killed by boars. etc)
This is extremely true. With 1 life time in an advanced town i can almost single handily create food for like 10 lifetime, its just insane. Advanced towns almost always have insane supply of food, its never the issue. The reason towns die off is usually a mix of griefers, noobs, bad roll of dice. The proof of what i'm saying is when i spawn as eve in dead towns, there almost always is tons of food.

This is precisely the reason why we had so many nerfs lately. People will start making thousands of knives instead of storing iron the very moment a town reaches top technology tier. This is one of the reasons why having a good smith capable of making lots of tool heads helps so much.

Thankfully Jason is adding more iron demanding technology which may prevent that.

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-04 23:30:57

That's really interesting about the stone hoe.

With the hatchet, you always have one (at least for a while) because you can't get to fire from startup without it. But stone hoes seem like a mistake to make - early on, you don't have the rope to spare so it's better to use skewers from nature, and later you have plenty of iron but better uses for the ropes you've grown (buckets, carts) so you stick with steel.

A lot of the ideas implied in this thread depend on iron being a limited resource, but in practice it's not, and you're usually optimizing on some other variable.

betame · 2018-12-04 23:37:25

Agreed, this thread is totally for theoretical projection with the current state of the game, inspired by the thread that decided the iron nerf

Jasonrohrer wrote:

The long-term pressure is supposed to come from iron. Clearly, there's no pressure there. At all.

lionon · 2018-12-05 07:00:45

Booklat1 wrote:

[People will start making thousands of knives instead of storing iron the very moment a town reaches top technology tier.

Which is an important fact for town security to have quite a variety of knifes available. A town with way less than population is prone to murder sprees.

I'd rather blame anyone making locks to utterly waste resources. Locks are nothing but trouble, and use up iron of nothing really useful. Even for good minded people when it goes to the next generation. People dying with keys far away, a griefer locking the key inside a building / box with as most valuable as he got is finger on. etc.

Booklat1 · 2018-12-05 08:11:15

lionon wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
[People will start making thousands of knives instead of storing iron the very moment a town reaches top technology tier.
Which is an important fact for town security to have quite a variety of knifes available. A town with way less than population is prone to murder sprees.
I'd rather blame anyone making locks to utterly waste resources. Locks are nothing but trouble, and use up iron of nothing really useful. Even for good minded people when it goes to the next generation. People dying with keys far away, a griefer locking the key inside a building / box with as most valuable as he got is finger on. etc.

Theres one thing you haven't considered though, unguarded knives don't make the town safer, rather make it easy for random murders to start. 3 to 5 Knives with workers is safe, more than that they'll most likely be abanoned on the floor somewhere to be picked up by some 14yo who wants to stab people for the kicks. We can't have fear of knives (only weapon to fear is loaded bow inside town) because knives are also important tools, but it's important to not have knives unprotected, specially en masse.

Murder sprees always will begin in big towns, and we need to have other armed people to prevent that, but having more knives than can be stored (in aprons or bags) is also a recipe for disaster.

lionon · 2018-12-05 08:25:19

That 14year old can kill 1 person before getting killed himself. I don't see the issue. However I've yet to see a town with more knifes than people anyway to judge it in practice.

Booklat1 · 2018-12-05 10:41:53

One person if you're talking about a noob killer. I can probably kill two or three people in a life before pissing a village off, maybe one more after that, imagine a big town. And the problem isn't serial killers, it's literally everyone having access to weapons because they're on the ground.

That means sheep griefing is easy, killing new eves is easy, killing the last females when the population is diminishing is easy. I don't lock weapons but I understand why people do it. Too many and knives become too acessible to everyone (and hard to store without locks).

Once I was in a dying old town to where a dude brought 8 knives from another town. That place become a murderfest for days.

jinbaili83 · 2018-12-05 13:04:06

Few months ago I made like dozen knives for all of people. In like five minutes some idiot stabs someone and then he gets stabed ,then another person comes and stabs the last guy holding the blody knive and so on.. the spiral of violence begins.

Tarr · 2018-12-05 14:44:28

Booklat1 wrote:

One person if you're talking about a noob killer. I can probably kill two or three people in a life before pissing a village off, maybe one more after that, imagine a big town. And the problem isn't serial killers, it's literally everyone having access to weapons because they're on the ground.
That means sheep griefing is easy, killing new eves is easy, killing the last females when the population is diminishing is easy. I don't lock weapons but I understand why people do it. Too many and knives become too acessible to everyone (and hard to store without locks).

Once I was in a dying old town to where a dude brought 8 knives from another town. That place become a murderfest for days.

I think pein said it best when saying "If you can't make a knife you don't deserve one."

New players don't seem to understand having a knife means all sorts of things:

You have to butcher the naked sheep
You're responsible for sterilizing arrow wounds
You need to be able to cut the bread
If the griefer is killing it's on you to stop it
Snakes around? Your job too.

Knives are not family heirlooms they're a tool that absolutely is needed throughout the town. I see new players just put them in their backpacks and sit on them when we need different jobs done. These people who essentially just hog knives cause more knives to be created which means more newer players have them who aren't trained to use them.

New players just end up hogging the knives or start murder chains because they can't think passed the idea of "murder bad111!!!1!" which just makes things a real mess.

One Hour One Life Forums

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Food per Iron (Long-term) Math

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