Value System (and village growth)

Crumpaloo · 2018-12-16 00:33:57

Ive always been invested in doing what i thought was most useful for my village at the time, and as a result i have came up with a 5 question value system to determine how useful what you are making/doing is for your village at the time:

How long does the Product last: 0 1 2 (0: short 1: medium 2: long) Ex: (0: A gooseberry 1: Steel Tools 2: Clothes)

How many uses does the product have: (0: one 1: a few 2: many) Ex: (0: clothes 1: backpack 2: Steel Ingots)

How Important are these uses to the overall village: (0: Optional 1: Preferred 2: Priority) Ex: (0: Floors/Walls 1:New Comen Wells 2: Pies)

Are there any alternatives that complete the same desired outcome: (0: Many 1: a few 2: none) Ex: (0: Gooseberries 1:Backpacks/Carts 2: Smithing Hammer)

How much work is required to make the desired product: (0: couple minutes 1: 15 minutes 2: close to a life)

Ex: (0:Baskets 1:New Comen Wares 2: Building/Pathing)

(1-3 Below Average) (4-6 Average) (7-10 Above Average)

(Backpacks 6): This is because the new inventory space allows for carrying food and tools that otherwise would need to be single-handedly picked up off the ground that can now be stored on person, making for a much more efficient worker to help their village.

(Clothes 6): Clothes stack up the same with backpacks, as while they only have one use, and that being to keep the players warm, warmth is a really big mechanic in One Hour One Life as that determines how long it will take before you need another slice of that pie in your backpack. Sure backpacks give extra space but if your having to fill all that space with pies because your butt naked you dont really get much of a ROI for it in the first place.

(Gooseberries 5): While gooseberries do provide a reliable source of food, in later villages they mainly serve as a place holders for other item combinations, i.e pies and sheep fodder making them by their-selves fairly useless. But its the fact of how many uses that the food has that gives it a 5.

(Iron ingots 7.5): Iron is probably one of the most important items in One Hour One Life, any civilization worth their salt will eventually be going through bath tubs of the stuff. It has several uses, and most of its products can last from fairly long to several generations. Theres also the fact that the only way to get it is to go into the badlands, a place filled with loads of animals that would like to call you dinner, making it even more lucrative.

(Long Wooden shafts 8): Fairly easy to make, yet invaluable to any civilization at any level of the tech tree. If you’ve played the game long enough, you can expect any of these within a 5 km radius to either be stolen for use making a tool, fence, clubbing baby seals. Sometimes you might even see people taking ones being used for fires just because all of them got used up. Its basically the letter stock for the entire game, or the wood logs in Minecraft: in that if you wanna get something done, your most likely gonna be using a version of this at one point or another.

Of course depending on what your village needs at the time the values of a object can be worth more or less, so its important to asses what you think your village needs the most THEN compare this value system with that information. Enjoy!

Also, id like to hear what you guys think on this, are there any items, or crafts specifically that you think are fairly vital to the rate at which a village thrives?

pein · 2018-12-16 07:59:59

making a shovel 3rd not a hoe
and dig out the stumps, check how many baskets you got and dig 2x as much adobe
this is invaluable resource

fast roads mid city: distraction and useless, even annoying and decreases productivity
make board roads to contain a preplanned farm

boards and stone blocks are useful, iron too, i like to see that, saves me a bit of time
adobe is useful
most useful is rope, compost

but it all depends who is gonna use it, i generally leave raw resources for others to enjoy and a well organized station

we did some jungle camps lately, me, dodge, blue diamond, i guess others too, it just makes things smoother long term, as you can live without clothes or roads, but you need to advance civilization into a stable composting/ wool clothing making state
for me food is easy, i don't make food for myself, you need to calculate human coeficient, as you need to keep newbies busy ithout messign up high tech stuff

lionon · 2018-12-16 08:10:56

pein wrote:

and dig out the stumps, check how many baskets you got and dig 2x as much adobe
this is invaluable resource

Why dig out stumps? IMO you just wasting the shovel for little output (firewood).

And why adobe once you get already a pen there is little use for it.

Last edited by lionon (2018-12-16 08:11:07)

Psykout · 2018-12-16 09:27:57

lionon wrote:

pein wrote:
and dig out the stumps, check how many baskets you got and dig 2x as much adobe
this is invaluable resource
Why dig out stumps? IMO you just wasting the shovel for little output (firewood).
And why adobe once you get already a pen there is little use for it.

**Halfway through typing this I realized you didn't understand what he meant, reed stumps not wood stumps. Reed stumps can be dug up with a shovel yielding adobe)The stumps eventually disappear so if you do nothing you waste adobe. Yes it does use the shovel but then you engage the argument of Shovel>Unknown amount of time to source adobe. Also you are forgetting that adobe fluctuates between high value, no value and very high value throughout an camps lifetime. The very high value mark = walls. Plastered adobe walls my friend.

As to to the original post, having some basics ifs/ands to your approach is never a bad thing. I personally think it should be more abstract

1) Is there any bottlenecks to progress that need to be handled (rabbit for kiln, sheep for compost)
2)Is someone else attempting to fix this? 2a) If No, do task 2b) If yes - will doubling up be advantageous or am I just getting in the way of their flow?
3) Is there a better time to produce X good?

My number three goes with your point of "Are there any alternatives that complete the same desired outcome" but slightly competes with the clothes thing... Is it a good idea to have everyone clothed, umm duh unless your are in a desert or jungle most of the time why would you not. Is it a good idea to make a bunch of clothes when your thread is predominately from milkweed and not sheep? Please die.

I want to embrace, but at the same time distance, from quantifying work vs time. Somethings just really end up being a lifetime worth of work that you can never really see the fruits of, or get praise for. If that is appalling to you, turns your gut, then I implore you to question why you play this exact game. Also if it were to become commonplace for people to balk at tasks that consumed "too much of their lifetime"or "Doesn't last long enough" the game would get up and fold itself twelve times right before the simulation would collapse onto itself. We need selfless warriors that don't question the length, work/time, Importance,girth of a product, and simply ask "is someone doing this yet? No, okay I am gonna do it so much that my grandkids won't have to worry about this shit"

Like where your head is at, but just feels a little strict with the value system. We should be talking about guildlines. How soon into a civ should you realistically have an axe and shovel plus maybe like a hoe. How soon should you have sheep. When do you transition to rubber/horse carts.

To break that down a little with some example scenarios

"When you have a 3x3 or 4x4 berry field completed and have a few rows of carrots ready to go, you should have a pen nearly done or in progress or you are cerealsly effin up

"After the bushes are planted but before pies we should have axe/shovel/other tool"

"When we have stable compost and pies we should be making rubber or we are sitting here with our thumbs up our butts"

These are all framed this way because they are still questions of mine, that would be neat to have answered otherwise I will figure it out

Last edited by Psykout (2018-12-16 10:08:36)

lionon · 2018-12-16 09:32:36

I see, well we agree that digging up wood stumps is a waste of shovel.

About the value of plastered adobe walls in late game... well okay, I guess we can't argue about the value of aesthetics.

PS: Reed should be farmable IMO.

Psykout · 2018-12-16 10:12:45

lionon wrote:

I see, well we agree that digging up wood stumps is a waste of shovel.
About the value of plastered adobe walls in late game... well okay, I guess we can't argue about the value of aesthetics.
PS: Reed should be farmable IMO.

With you on the farmable reeds. Also not about aesthetics, plastered walls dont decay, which is the strength of them. Digging up wood stumps is good if you just straight up need to use the tile or ... for aesthetics. I am hereby challenging your disposition, and am saying that adobe into plaster walls are for function, and that wood stumps are for aesthetics, and that neither are useless. Only are very specific in their application.

Greep · 2018-12-16 10:17:54

Well, reeds are basically farmable: straw is pretty much the same thing so just farm it excessively. Kind of annoying dealing with the wheat clutter before bread, though. I think the only difference is you can make hats with straw, and skirts with reed, and compost with straw. If you're reviving a dead town, massive wheat fields is the first thing you do for that reason.

As for the value system, it's kind of age related right? Like I'd give baskets, sharp stones, and rope a 9+ in eve towns. But you can just grow milkweed in advanced towns if you're short on rope.

Last edited by Greep (2018-12-16 10:27:36)

lionon · 2018-12-16 10:28:19

Psykout wrote:

With you on the farmable reeds. Also not about aesthetics, plastered walls dont decay, which is the strength of them. Digging up wood stumps is good if you just straight up need to use the tile or ... for aesthetics.

I've done that when I was about right to build a road over them, yes then it's useful to just continue that project. For aesthetics, given the stump naturally decays after 1 hour, it's still a shovel waste.

About the shovel for reed stumps, depends on how much iron the eve camp has access to. If they already opened a mine and thus have plenty of iron, yes go ahead and dig up all reed stumps you can find. If iron is still in the scarce early start please no, this usually breaks the shovel in no time, breaks compost etc. Also even for old towns, I've never had a hard time to get plenty of clay while hitching a horsecart a minute outside. And yes I forgot, straw+clay = adobe as well.

I am hereby challenging your disposition, and am saying that adobe into plaster walls are for function, and that wood stumps are for aesthetics, and that neither are useless. Only are very specific in their application.

Wood stumps aesthetics, well if you can dare to have them that one hour, just let them decay instead. Plaster walls for function... well if you want to make a dedicated smithing house, etc. yes. far enough. For basic function the oven base does it tough, everything else is aesthetics.

Tarr · 2018-12-16 10:42:36

lionon wrote:

About the shovel for reed stumps, depends on how much iron the eve camp has access to. If they already opened a mine and thus have plenty of iron, yes go ahead and dig up all reed stumps you can find. If iron is still in the scarce early start please no, this usually breaks the shovel in no time, breaks compost etc.

You need a pen in the first place to care whether or not your shovel lasts a few or a lot of charges. Every single type of sheep pen requires one use of the shovel whether it be bell tower base, adobe, fence, or any combination of the three (unless only using the top half of reeds or a meme pen). Adobe pens can be just as cheaply made as tower bases if using the actual reed bundles to make adobe as well as using the stumps which is just a matter of whether or not the collector is lazy.

Adobe was meta for a reason before we swapped to bell tower bases: It's the material easiest to move in mass, incredibly cheap to produce, and less accident prone compared to bell bases.

Psykout · 2018-12-16 10:55:59

lionon wrote:

About the shovel for reed stumps, depends on how much iron the eve camp has access to. If they already opened a mine and thus have plenty of iron, yes go ahead and dig up all reed stumps you can find. If iron is still in the scarce early start please no, this usually breaks the shovel in no time, breaks compost etc.

Cant have compost without a pen? HA GOT YA! Nah for real not saying dig up all of em you can see, but if there is say 12-15 reed stumps sitting right there that are about to disappear in 15-25ish minutes and your closest reach to sheep is a carrot seed sitting on an empty tile and 6-12 berry bushes planted, you be DAMNED sure I am going to dig up all those stumps before Karen can bury 10+ kids that died of sids with that shovel yo.

lionon wrote:

Wood stumps aesthetics, well if you can dare to have them that one hour, just let them decay instead. Plaster walls for function... well if you want to make a dedicated smithing house, etc. yes. far enough. For basic function the oven base does it tough, everything else is aesthetics.

Eh the problem is waiting that hour can kill the progress and the design. Too many post it notes, not enough actual change. Going further into this, basic function just a forge surrounding by forge stuff makes that area the forge, but it will never be respected as the forge with floor walls, bearskin and multiple chests. Just as a bakery with walls lined with chests that the second an empty plate is in sight is sorted and used, will always exceed the output of a 2xAdobe mess two tiles from the baby bushes. I was in a town once that had an adobe oven in the worst spot. Like omg. the worst spot. There was barely any pies around because of the clutter. I started to just lay down flooring telling everyone "this will be new bakery" When I logged in the next day and popped up in MY bakery, I damn near cried. I was there because it was still there. It was there because it kept people there. Because it was laid out well, had adequate storage, had walls and floors making it aesthetically pleasing, other people wanted to maintain it, were happy to do so! My daughters were jazzed to be IN A BAKERY, not just mindless bakers. Don't discount aesthetics considering every time you take on something that's scope is past your lifetime, you are essentially a salesman, nay a realtor, trying to convince someone to invest their time into it.

lionon · 2018-12-16 11:01:15

If the wood stump is in the way because of whatever, yes dig it up.

Going around the whole village digging all stumps of the trees someone cut down, so the surrondings look nice?... no, please not, in your next rebirth they will be gone.

Pull of the wood and log so the decay can start? Yes.

Psykout · 2018-12-16 11:01:44

Tarr wrote:

You need a pen in the first place

Psykout wrote:

Cant have compost without a pen? HA GOT YA!

You posted that while I was typing my post. New bestfriends?

Didn't even think about the fact that every other method of pens, aside from ungodly fences *hint*, require a shovel use. Adobe compared to the rest can be carried very easily, Backpack plus a basket is a lot, throw in a cart and you are a mobile thread producing, hipster hat doling, pie envy hancho of the town

lionon · 2018-12-16 11:03:39

Adobe oven base fences don't require a shovel use. If you make the adobe not from shoveling. Just saying.

It are the ugliest the fences tough.

Last edited by lionon (2018-12-16 11:03:59)

pein · 2018-12-16 11:05:37

reed stumps for adobe, cause you lose it after 1 hour
depending on swamp size and family size, lot of baskets gets made and lost
its been twice that i made 6x6 fully finished adobe pen and can get plastered and colored
building a generic pen in any situation might not be best idea, like you can still do bell base but if you got to go far for it, cause your city is mainly swamp and jungle, than ask yourself which is faster

wood stumps only if its near something human made, as they block movement and not many people know how to behead a goose
the kindling is still good, as cutting firewood hurts in the long run, you need 15 firewood in 60 min, and seems that nobody gets any, but yeah, the shovel nerf hurts a bit on that too

Tarr · 2018-12-16 11:28:42

Psykout wrote:

Didn't even think about the fact that every other method of pens, aside from ungodly fences *hint*, require a shovel use. Adobe compared to the rest can be carried very easily, Backpack plus a basket is a lot, throw in a cart and you are a mobile thread producing, hipster hat doling, pie envy hancho of the town

That's exactly why they were the first pen meta right after trash pits were nerfed completely into the ground. Adobe pens also have the benefit of not having an age requirement to set them up which allows children to make sheep pens without the aid of an adult. Unlike the adobe pen you must be fourteen years old to even start work on a bell tower base pen meaning you have to wait eleven minutes to even start moving the rocks for your pen.

If anything this thread is a good reminder on why adobe pens make for great sheep pens. They either cost no shovel charges or minimal shovel charges, allow for children to gather/create the town sheep pen, and are the easiest mass transported sheep pens

Crumpaloo · 2018-12-16 13:47:41

Greep wrote:

Well, reeds are basically farmable: straw is pretty much the same thing so just farm it excessively. Kind of annoying dealing with the wheat clutter before bread, though. I think the only difference is you can make hats with straw, and skirts with reed, and compost with straw. If you're reviving a dead town, massive wheat fields is the first thing you do for that reason.
As for the value system, it's kind of age related right? Like I'd give baskets, sharp stones, and rope a 9+ in eve towns. But you can just grow milkweed in advanced towns if you're short on rope.

Exactly, its circumstantial and should be taken into account with the value system, which is what i stated in the post itself. Of course baskets are gonna be important in eve towns, and less so in towns, something to keep in mind.

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-16 15:54:13

lionon wrote:

I see, well we agree that digging up wood stumps is a waste of shovel.

Firewood is scarce; it requires labor to fetch. Firewood is important for keeping the central fire going, and it is a waste to chop firewood for kindling.

Using one shovel-use to get an extra wood that can be used for kindling is very efficient.

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-16 16:04:17

Regarding the OP - those are some decent guidelines to consider, but ultimately your thesis is undermined (correctly) by this:

Of course depending on what your village needs at the time the values of a object can be worth more or less, so its important to asses what you think your village needs the most THEN compare this value system with that information.

The value of anything in the game is always dynamic. It always depends on the local circumstances. It's crucial to recall the economic concept of "marginal value", which simply means that the FIRST pie is much more valuable than the TWO-HUNDREDTH pie. There is value in having stockpiled inventory (above and beyond the inherent value of the items being stockpiled! the inventory itself is valuable!) but there is also a cost to keeping an inventory, and an opportunity cost for the labor and other resources invested in the inventory that could have been used for something more urgent (the second shovel rather than the seventh horse, for example).

For most of the early game, there is almost always a very small set of urgently-needed things, without which everything will soon fall apart. As experienced players we all know pretty well what those things are and at what point they are needed. So for much of the game no value calculations are needed - just an understanding of the technology tree and the critical dependencies and chokepoints.

And once you get past the early game, there's pretty much no constraints at all, so value calculations aren't important - everything is abundant, and you have the liberty to pursue anything you desire (as long as someone is keeping an eye on the fundamentals so that, for example, compost doesn't suddenly run out).

pein · 2018-12-17 04:41:14

the stump near a farm means they gonna go around it every damn time

the efficient use of shovel is:
dig up soil piles for the second 10 soil
make pen with stones or adobe from reed, i seen adobe made from clay and reed and its more of a waste
and move dung once, not twice, make the compost for each dung
dig up clay pits, big rocks and stumps which are too close to the human built buildings

even if they make second ovens, adobe is worth more than digging graves or replacing horse fence
or digging up berry bushes, yes those need to be done eventually

but just a reminder, half adobe walls are fully functional for blocking walls, cost the same as adobe base
if it decays, no problem, you don't lose anything

you wont build a civilization thinking that you lose everything
the human factor is important
they see you made a nice room/pen, they try harder to keep it up, less kids suicide etc

Last edited by pein (2018-12-17 04:42:50)

Dodge · 2018-12-17 07:29:42

You can also make an axe and chop trees until it breaks (make some kindling too if you dont have hatchet)
Make a shovel and use it on reeds, stumps, stones, wells etc until it breaks
Then combine the two and make a new shovel

The area around camp should be clear so the shovel usually lasts until sheeps

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Value System (and village growth)

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