Griefer signs detected against plausible deniability

lionon · 2018-12-12 08:28:20

Reading some of the posts and suggestion I got the impression some people may be just oblivious to griefers near them. Just because you don't realize them doesn't mean they are not there. You may be one of the sheeps that is blind to the wolf among them and thus not directly bothered by him. So this is a post about it I wanted to do for a while now.

A "griefer" in this thread is defined as a person that deliberately wants nothing but harm or even destroy the town. It are the persons that enjoy the power-kick knowing some other human on this planet is pulling their hair because of them It are not genuine idiots or newbies that do more harm than good because of not knowing.

A "griefer" is thus not only people that go on a murder rampage or try to stir up people by uttering racism. Also I do not recognize them as a "job" to make the game interesting, as been said in the other thread, they are not the white pieces of chess that oppose your black pieces, it is the kid that steals a piece while others are playing and laughing manically because you realize you can't play due to their doing.

Or as online discussions go, a "griefer" is the same as a "troll". This are not people that oppose your point of view, it are people that know which strings to pull to destroy any meaningful discussion.

With the curse system in place, only noob-griefers will try to go on a murder rampage. They shifted their way to "plausible deniability". For example they will keep sheering the last sheep whenever they think they are unwatched in contrast of killing the last sheep which albeit would be more damage there is no plausible deniability of "oh sir, sorry I didn't know / yes but I really needed that thread" bla.

So what signs are there is or was a griefer active in your town? And yes none of them may be a sure indicator by itself as plausible deniability goes, any by itself may be a honest mistake, but if they happen in clusters it's deliberate.
* all the sheeps are shorn
* juniper / maple trees near town are cut down
* dogs are being bread
* more and more buckets are filled latex
* more and more stones are sharpened, flint being turned into arrow heads.
* arrows become missing
* more and more bowls become filled with hard to empty stuff
* roads are making strange turns
* bear rugs are placed on desert tiles
* one of the iron products is piling up in mass using up all available iron
* shovels are destroyed/wasted on mass burring
* gates or doors are placed in the pen -- (so they can be "forgot" to be closed)
* there are many (large) fires going on
* someone is running around with two knifes or more
* bears/wolves show up near and in town
* locks on doors / trunks (yes I know how jason thinks about it, but in reality most of the time it's done in a harmful intention)
* smithy is missing flat stones (as with sheep, file and bellow may be more harmful but there is not plausible deniability on them)

Noticing someone doing any of the a both, they *may* be a griefer, maybe not. In my experience that chance turned out to be about 50/50. If then watching them and they do more and than one of these "mistakes" they are, also if you tell them off on one thing and they won't stop nor have a honest discussion about why it's a bad idea.

Also when you get mugged after asking them to stop or simply because they took notice to you following them around then it is clear the suspicion was correct. If you are no longer an oblivious sheep you'll become a target...

Furthermore an indicator (but of course not certainty) may be kids that are suspiciously better equipped than the current town average (either because they just focus on themselves while others try to do jobs for town, or because they hid equipment in the surrounding forests in a previous life).

Be aware just as "trolls" in discussions they may be skilled in social manipulation. There is always that innocent act "but sir I didn't know" or they put an arrow through you and go "oops, sorry misclicked"... yeah sure, just after you became aware I was about to watch your malicious doings...

hailey · 2018-12-12 15:22:44

A few of these I personally wouldn’t consider griefing but of course everyone’s idea of it is different but,

Don’t forget:

*force feeding people pie, stew, etc... to dispose of the food
*taking baskets full of pies and running off with it
*pulling all berries off bushes and leaving them all over the ground to despawn & killing bushes

A while back a griefer almost killed an entire town by doing these

Floofy · 2018-12-12 17:59:09

I once had a life where i didn't want to go full griefer mode, but i felt like trolling. I took a wheelbarrow and made it full of completely random things (tools, seeds, branches, etc). Then i would go near the bakery and drop it everywhere. And i did this my whole life.

The funny thing is, people never said anything. They just... kept moving away the things i put there xD

WomanWizard · 2018-12-12 19:58:05

A lot of what you posted indicates that there has been a griefer at some point, not necessarily that there is one in town right now. In order to call griefer, you need to be actively aware of what's going on in the town. If you see these things piling up as you play, then yes, probably an active griefer. If no, then the town was griefed at some point, but is probably peaceful right now.

lionon · 2018-12-12 20:13:24

WomanWizard wrote:

A lot of what you posted indicates that there has been a griefer at some point, not necessarily that there is one in town right now. In order to call griefer, you need to be actively aware of what's going on in the town. If you see these things piling up as you play, then yes, probably an active griefer. If no, then the town was griefed at some point, but is probably peaceful right now.

I agree.

distillers · 2018-12-12 23:22:52

I'm giving this game a time because of griffers.

They have made the game experience very unpleasant.
In my opinion the goal of the game is try to "save the town" or make the generation-run long as possible.
This give you a sense of do something useful to help.

And is waaaay easier to do griffer things.
Simple things can be done in seconds and cause a lot of damage, and take so many time to repair.

Griffers right now don't seems to care about any penalty. They are almost inexistent.
Trolls right now seems to be very pleased to what they are doing. Griffing become a form of gameplay.

This post kinda help, but is like drying ice.
The gameplay is not "spot the mafia".
This is not Town of Salem.

The number of trolls and racist right now are epidemic. They are in almost every 'rando runs'.
We now have to play, hidding knifes, and trust-no-one.

Here a bunch of ideas:
- harder penalties (like 20x harder)
- you can curse someone after die (on family tree site)
- bless system (oposite of curse) for 'veteran-players' become a "moderator like". And kick/ban/mute people.
- Perma ban racism.
- Curse work as a child (can type after /curse) (fix)
- Cursed players should be exposed (everyone know he's a cursed player) (rollback the black chat feature)
- Cursed player is banned from doing
- pick up knife and bow
- pick up shears
- pick up carts, BP and baskets
- pick up axe
- pick up mining pick
- pick up any expensive item (not even a black-list, just a small white-list)
- Cursed players cannot lure Bear.
- Cursed players should have move speed lowered by half or even lower
- Double the time as baby form. (helpless until 6 years)
- cursed players should have half of food bar.
- cursed players should be muted.

Last edited by distillers (2018-12-12 23:48:06)

Azrael · 2018-12-13 02:02:31

distillers wrote:

I'm giving this game a time because of griffers.
They have made the game experience very unpleasant.
In my opinion the goal of the game is try to "save the town" or make the generation-run long as possible.
This give you a sense of do something useful to help.
And is waaaay easier to do griffer things.
Simple things can be done in seconds and cause a lot of damage, and take so many time to repair.
Griffers right now don't seems to care about any penalty. They are almost inexistent.
Trolls right now seems to be very pleased to what they are doing. Griffing become a form of gameplay.
This post kinda help, but is like drying ice.
The gameplay is not "spot the mafia".
This is not Town of Salem.
The number of trolls and racist right now are epidemic. They are in almost every 'rando runs'.
We now have to play, hidding knifes, and trust-no-one.
Here a bunch of ideas:
- harder penalties (like 20x harder)
- you can curse someone after die (on family tree site)
- bless system (oposite of curse) for 'veteran-players' become a "moderator like". And kick/ban/mute people.
- Perma ban racism.
- Curse work as a child (can type after /curse) (fix)
- Cursed players should be exposed (everyone know he's a cursed player) (rollback the black chat feature)
- Cursed player is banned from doing
- pick up knife and bow
- pick up shears
- pick up carts, BP and baskets
- pick up axe
- pick up mining pick
- pick up any expensive item (not even a black-list, just a small white-list)
- Cursed players cannot lure Bear.
- Cursed players should have move speed lowered by half or even lower
- Double the time as baby form. (helpless until 6 years)
- cursed players should have half of food bar.
- cursed players should be muted.

I don't think this is it.

By making harsher penalties on griefers, fewer people will want to play in the long run. Imagine a noob player who made a silly mistake, like taking the pies to his workplace. People think he's griefing but he's clearly just moving a basket of pies, in this case, he would be cursed (most of the time) just for doing something that is not considered griefing from his perspective. This player accumulates more and more curses for either very strict reasons, or for stupid beginner mistakes.

Eventually, he gets sent to donkey town, which is not even that hard to be sent to if he makes only one mistake, the whole town can curse him off. With all these penalties, or even just a few of them, he losses motivation and stops playing the game. It's not even funny how demotivating donkey town can be if you are sent there. Even if he burns off the time, he will now think that everyone is out to get him, what kind of community are we if we just punish people for silly mistakes in such a manner?

Even if he IS a troll/griefer, these people are essential to the game. What's the point of a knife/arrows in your bag if everyone won't ever be "disrespectful" or start griefing? No combat or drama at all makes the game stale. Some people would rather to have the game like this, but trust me, in the long run, it is never good to have too much of anything, too much "fair and kind" gameplay will make the game get boring even faster than having griefers on. This is just my opinion, however, but I've seen the results of grieferless societies and it really ain't nothing special.

Besides the definition of griefer has changed recently. Nowadays a griefer is just anyone who pisses you off if they say something bad to you? GRIEFER! If they use something in town that you wanted to use? GRIEFER! If they made a house where you wanted to make a farm? GRIEFER! It really makes the term redundant, it has no more meaning, I hate when people use "good" and "bad" guys. As if you can decide that yourself, some people play differently and think some a certain person is a griefer or not a griefer when in reality the opposite can be true. It's all about how YOU think, there is no objective definition of a griefer in this game, yeah you can say the definition in response to me.... But that is not any meaning you can use in-game, where anyone and everyone is griefers.

BladeWoods · 2018-12-13 03:06:53

I still don't think there's anything wrong with shearing all the sheep, and this ain't a total fix to dying as a kid and being unable to curse b/c character limit, but you can grow up in your next life and still curse the griefer, just remember their name or check their name on family tree. I heard this works up to 2 hours after griefer dies.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2018-12-13 03:08:59)

lionon · 2018-12-13 06:16:28

BladeWoods wrote:

I still don't think there's anything wrong with shearing all the sheep,

No, it is very wrong. Why?

Sheared sheep + berries/carrot = Wooly sheep
Lamb + berries/carrot = Wooly sheep + Dung + 4 Mutton

You see the big difference?

BladeWoods wrote:

this ain't a total fix to dying as a kid and being unable to curse b/c character limit, but you can grow up in your next life and still curse the griefer, just remember their name or check their name on family tree. I heard this works up to 2 hours after griefer dies.

Yes it works, it's may just be a PITA to have to play another life to your twenties just you can curse someone who really deserved it..

Last edited by lionon (2018-12-13 06:18:15)

lionon · 2018-12-13 06:26:32

Azrael wrote:

Besides the definition of griefer has changed recently. Nowadays a griefer is just anyone who pisses you off if they say something bad to you? GRIEFER! If they use something in town that you wanted to use? GRIEFER! If they made a house where you wanted to make a farm? GRIEFER! It really makes the term redundant, it has no more meaning, I hate when people use "good" and "bad" guys. As if you can decide that yourself, some people play differently and think some a certain person is a griefer or not a griefer when in reality the opposite can be true. It's all about how YOU think, there is no objective definition of a griefer in this game, yeah you can say the definition in response to me.... But that is not any meaning you can use in-game, where anyone and everyone is griefers.

I agree, thats why I put on the effort to give a definition of griefer at least for this thread. It's all about the intention. One same action may be genuine stupidity/noobness or grieving, you can tell when watching a person a little longer and/or how they react on interaction about it.

As said, it's analogous to "troll". I absolutely hate it, when people call everyone in an online discussion a "troll" who disagree with them. Having a different opinion is not "trolling". Being stupid is not trolling. Having a strange opinion is not trolling. Trolling is the intentional act to stir up others and make any meaningful discussion impossible. Trolls don't care about any topic, they will just take and flip sides whatever suits their intention to divide and cause grief.

A griefer is one who's intention is to cause grief.

fatalwolf · 2018-12-13 06:52:17

Lol I didnt know breeding dogs was considered griefing. But anyway most of us are not obivious to griefers, its just that we dont want to waste our time dealing with them repeatedly anymore. There is just so many of them its gotten to the point that deal with one and 4 more pop up. The worst are the ones that take and hide tools now that iron is scarce. The only form of fun that I find that is ungriefable is using my knowledge to teach someone new what ever they want.

Azrael · 2018-12-13 06:57:44

lionon wrote:

Azrael wrote:
Besides the definition of griefer has changed recently. Nowadays a griefer is just anyone who pisses you off if they say something bad to you? GRIEFER! If they use something in town that you wanted to use? GRIEFER! If they made a house where you wanted to make a farm? GRIEFER! It really makes the term redundant, it has no more meaning, I hate when people use "good" and "bad" guys. As if you can decide that yourself, some people play differently and think some a certain person is a griefer or not a griefer when in reality the opposite can be true. It's all about how YOU think, there is no objective definition of a griefer in this game, yeah you can say the definition in response to me.... But that is not any meaning you can use in-game, where anyone and everyone is griefers.
I agree, thats why I put on the effort to give a definition of griefer at least for this thread. It's all about the intention. One same action may be genuine stupidity/noobness or grieving, you can tell when watching a person a little longer and/or how they react on interaction about it.
As said, it's analogous to "troll". I absolutely hate it, when people call everyone in an online discussion a "troll" who disagree with them. Having a different opinion is not "trolling". Being stupid is not trolling. Having a strange opinion is not trolling. Trolling is the intentional act to stir up others and make any meaningful discussion impossible. Trolls don't care about any topic, they will just take and flip sides whatever suits their intention to divide and cause grief.
A griefer is one who's intention is to cause grief.

The definitin you just used is fine, its good even... but its not applicable in game.

People in the game cause grief all the time, i know someone who killed 6 people in one life and each person he called a "troll or griefer" even thought he killed them for the slightest of reasons.

For example, basically imagine leaving wheat out and not making Adobe or a basket, the wheat will disappear but what if you dont know that? This man killed people for this mistake and many other small things that new players simply dont know.

The thing is, he cause grief, but he doesnt call himseld a griefer. And really neither do i, he did what he thought was right even though ingame he might be interpreted as such. And while i dont agree with his methods or his justifications, he did cause lots of grief but wasnt sent to donkey town.

There just isnt a global definition, anything could be grief anything could be detremental to someone, that guy killed 6! Hes a griefer right? But he said he KILLED griefers?? But who did he kill, they say someone else is a griefer! And so goes the cycle.

Really the term is honesty not gonna do much good, a griefer is intentional, but even if i grief i can justify it in such a way where im not cursed and i get to be spared. What is intentional? That dude killed 6 people intentionally for reasons i dont understand, he must be a griefer? But then the people he killed... they are noobs but did they intentionally leave wheat out? How do we know?

We dont. We should stop posting about this, its all pointless cycles and it gets us nowhere.

lionon · 2018-12-13 07:05:50

Well his intention wasn't causing grief... so one could try to reason with him. Or stop him with conventional means, this is part of the game. The issue with griefers (as with trolls) is there is no way to reason, because they *want* grief.

You are right that things get watered down by people broadening the term to much, but that doesn't mean that this kind of people with the intention to cause grief do not exist. You are not discussing them away by pointing out others that get mislabeled. And they have developed their strategy of "plausible deniability" to do intentionally do nothing but harm to the town they were born in.

I made this topic to make more people aware of this as I noticed many just don't realize that e. g. when they can't find a bucket to put water in since there are a docent filled with latex this is likely due to intended grief. Or to watch the pen if the same person comes again and again to sheer the last sheep until the compost cycle breaks and people start starving...

Last edited by lionon (2018-12-13 07:24:00)

lionon · 2018-12-13 07:11:42

fatalwolf wrote:

Lol I didnt know breeding dogs was considered griefing. But anyway most of us are not obivious to griefers, its just that we dont want to waste our time dealing with them repeatedly anymore. There is just so many of them its gotten to the point that deal with one and 4 more pop up. The worst are the ones that take and hide tools now that iron is scarce. The only form of fun that I find that is ungriefable is using my knowledge to teach someone new what ever they want.

It's not "griefing" by itself, yet.

The list are ment to be indicators, hints.

Someone breeding dogs may be on his way to make a mean pit bull army. It is ment, if you see someone breeding dogs, keep watching him in which direction they go with it. And yes the moment they feed a pit bull puppy a bowl of carnitas to make it grow, I'd say there is definitely to draw line and try to stop them going any further with this.

pein · 2018-12-13 08:29:15

well i do this every single life:
find the furs and assemble a pack or take one if i see, or ask an old person if i can have it
make an apron, a loincloth, a straw hat, if i got time and easy access, the other parts
most people start off with some clothes and they run around in them not even knowing how to put item in pack or apron or what they wear is warm or cold, i seen people live a whole life in a half shoe
depending on what im doing and where i scavenge i get full clothing so its more optimal on food, the less i consume the more i work

i don't like giving kids clothes, especially packs and aprons, maybe he will have no use of it
and i hate seeing kids in those munching pies and doing nothing
if they do nothing, they can sit silent and eat and talk with others who eat
you can give warm clothes so they eat less
but a city runs more optimally when scavengers got the storage and aprons, so you see who is doing something by looking at them, also some people ask better clothed people and their answers on things are just crazy bad

like we had a town yesterday, the berry field dying out, 30 tiles away tons of soil, no one got some, no firewood, and they left all carrots seeding like 3 times, no iron, no tools finished, no clothing made and they even left a lot outside of city
so if i got to hide a pack or keep two knives at me to give someone decent, i will do it, also i give clothes to the ones who do some effort

when is plenty go with it, but if people cant even tend to a fire then i don't have any mood supporting them
they don't even react while im running around repeating important things

for me therefore is not that important to keep everyone alive, just the ones who willing to cooperate

so if some people even ruin the work on the improvements, killing them is necessary before they do even more harm

generally they don't really curse me as i got motive and they see me working, and mostly im the only elder
and if you curse me on my face, i will kill you if you are useless, and you don't even ask what happened

curse system is very badly implemented cause some people think they equal to others
if i could curse everyone who annoys me, than pretty sure 80% of a town would be cursed, but i can curse only one per 2 lifes, so i only curse when someone intentionally destroys a city or the map or hides stuff, i don't care about killings, i don't curse on orders, i don't curse when i get killed
i do curse if someone still doesn't understand his error and not willing to cooperate

now this is very subjective, i been cursed for making compost, and even for telling someone not to throw my kid around
some actions i do, are incomprehensible for newer players, like why i got 6 bowls of palm kernels near oven, cause im makign 6 latex the same time

also is a way of trolling/ without aggression to pick off all the berries and carrots and feed it to sheep, generally is enough food to survive the next 10 minutes, if you got the right mentality and you start working, if you not, i don't have sympathy to keep everyone alive

i remember when i starved my cursed baby, then he born back, and he was the only one who cared about the city and lineage, so i totally deserved getting killed by him and reevaluated my choice of letting people do what they want and playing ''normally''

as long as you cannot make a sheep pen,and do composting, probably you shouldn't mess around it, and curse the shepperd
or don't mess around the kiln if you don't know how to smith

i get that people got different sense of time and priorities but some people don't know how to tend to a berry farm but worry about griefers cause they seen it on a video

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-13 19:31:39

lionon wrote:

BladeWoods wrote:
I still don't think there's anything wrong with shearing all the sheep,
No, it is very wrong. Why?
Sheared sheep + berries/carrot = Wooly sheep
Lamb + berries/carrot = Wooly sheep + Dung + 4 Mutton

Nope. This is the correct comparison:

Sheared sheep + berries/carrot = Wooly sheep
Lamb + berries/carrot = Wooly sheep + Dung

You don't get the 4 mutton until you kill the wooly sheep, and that's true in both instances.

Shearing the last sheep is a waste, but a small one. It forces you to spend an extra bc-bowl without getting a dung for it. It's much more of an annoyance than a waste. Usually you're running short of poop and soil and need to get a poop as quickly as possible... and having no unshorn sheep in inventory delays getting a poop and adds some busy work (fetching an extra bc-bowl).

That's not to downplay it, mind you. The annoyance of not having a modest inventory of critical items is a big deal. It's a timewaster, and time is the most precious resource of all. That's true of so many things, though, not just unshorn sheep. Keep kindling in stock near the kiln. Keep firewood in stock near the fire. Keep ripe wheat ready to be harvested. Keep milkweed seeds on hand (but for god's sake keep them out of the way!).

In fact, often it's an annoying mistake to not have two unshorn sheep, or even more. The fewer you have, the longer you have to sit there waiting for a hungry lamb to spawn. The key point is that the mistake is not the waste of feeding a shorn sheep instead of feeding a lamb; that only costs one dung. The true mistake is the reduction of inventory of a critical resource (unshorn sheep) below a critical threshold (enough to quickly produce a poop when poop inventory is low).

Last edited by CrazyEddie (2018-12-13 19:36:08)

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-13 19:35:24

Azrael wrote:

i know someone who killed 6 people in one life and each person he called a "troll or griefer" even thought he killed them for the slightest of reasons.
For example, basically imagine leaving wheat out and not making Adobe or a basket, the wheat will disappear but what if you dont know that? This man killed people for this mistake and many other small things that new players simply dont know.
The thing is, he cause grief, but he doesnt call himseld a griefer.

That's correct. He isn't a griefer. He's just an asshole.

And the people he killed aren't griefers, they're just not very good at the game. That is not a crime and should not receive the death penalty.

lionon · 2018-12-13 19:41:54

CrazyEddie wrote:

Nope. This is the correct comparison:
Sheared sheep + berries/carrot = Wooly sheep
Lamb + berries/carrot = Wooly sheep + Dung
You don't get the 4 mutton until you kill the wooly sheep, and that's true in both instances.

Not quite.

Lets have two scenarios.

Scenario one.

Initial Position: You have one shorn sheep.
Operation: You give it berries/carrot.
Result: You now have one wooly sheep.

Scenario two.

You have one wooly sheep
Operation: You give the spawned hungry lamb a berries/carrot.
Result: You now have two(!) wooly sheeps *and* a dung!

And that additional sheep is worth 4 muttons with the use of one indestructible tool that also doesnt take much time.

See it's a bigger difference than just the dung.

Sheering the last sheep is just awfully bad. And yes fact is, it is a common griefer tactic as continuing the sheer the sheep that someone just made wooly deprives the town of dung (and mutton pie). Additionally the good minded people will bring all berries and carrots to the shorn sheep to restart the compost cycle.. until there is none and the griefer can go full "muhahahaha" mode.

Last edited by lionon (2018-12-13 19:50:15)

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-13 20:21:49

Here's another way to look at the comparison.

Start with a wooly sheep.

Scenario one:

Wait for a lamb. Feed the lamb. Cost: one bc bowl. Result: two wooly sheep, one poop.

Scenario two:

Shear the sheep. Feed the shorn sheep. Wait for a lamb. Feed the lamb. Cost: two bc bowls. Result: two wooly sheep, one poop, one fleece.

The only difference is that in Scenario Two you've used an extra bc bowl but gotten an extra fleece. Plus, as I mentioned above, if it was the last or second-to-last unshorn sheep you're probably going to have inventory issues, which can be annoying (or even life-threatening) but are not strictly speaking a waste of resources (other than time, which is the most important resource).

lionon · 2018-12-13 20:42:43

Sorry, lets start with extremely same starting point, to make it clear:

Starting point: You got one wooly sheep and one bowl of berries/carrots.

Action scenario one:
1. Sheer the sheep.
2. Feed the shorn sheep

-> Result: 1 wooly sheep, 1 fleece.

Action scenario two:
1: Feed the lamb.
2. Sheer one sheep.

-> Result: 1 wooly sheep, 1 fleece, 1 dung and 1 shorn sheep (worth 4 mutton)

Just by turning around the order of things in a way to never have all sheep shorn you get way more output.

Yes I'm all in favor of changing the game physics in this regard. But as it stands the difference is that bad.

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-13 21:08:40

Just by turning around the order of things in a way to never have all sheep shorn you get way more output.

No, that's not correct. The only difference is that, for every shorn sheep you are required to feed in order to recover your lamb production (because you sheared too many and don't have enough unshorn remaining to produce lambs), you have to spend an extra bc bowl and you gain an extra fleece.

Consider this slight change to your scenario:

Start with one wooly sheep and two bowls (instead of only one as in your example).

Scenario one:
Shear the sheep.
Feed the shorn sheep.
Wait for a lamb.
Feed the lamb.
Shear one sheep.

Result: One wooly sheep, one shorn sheep, two fleece.

Scenario two:
Wait for a lamb.
Feed the lamb.
Sheer one sheep.

Result: One wooly sheep, one shorn sheep, one fleece, and one bowl.

Extend this example to any number of sheep and lambs and bowls, over any duration, with as many instances of shearing-the-last-sheep as you like, and you will discover that the only difference is that every time you shear the last time and are forced to feed a shorn sheep to recover lamb production, you will have one additional fleece and one fewer bowls of berries-and-carrot.

That's not "way more output". It's the exact same output, except that now and then you trade one more bowl for one more fleece.

Not shearing the last sheep is purely a matter of inventory management. It's the same kind of problem as having at least one ripe wheat field to produce wheat seeds (but it's easier to fix than wheat if you screw it up).

Last edited by CrazyEddie (2018-12-13 21:11:54)

lionon · 2018-12-13 21:17:33

CrazyEddie wrote:

It's the exact same output, except that now and then you trade one more bowl for one more fleece.

The thing is, without sheering the last sheep that one bowl you had to "trade" for one fleece, it would have become 1 fleece *and* a dung *and* a shorn sheep if you would have been able to give a lamb.

It is just waste to sheer the last sheep.

Yes if it is a one time issue it is quite easily repairable effectively you just wasted one dung and 4 mutton (because if you would have given that "to be traded" bowl to a lamb instead of a shorn sheep, you would have gotten more).

But to come back on the topic... this was what griefers do, I've watched them doing this, and yes with success... sheering the last sheep again again, while others try to repair the damage by given it a bowl. While there might be some fleece piling up the town gets deprived of soil and soon the berries and carrots become unavailable to it and it all breaks down. On older towns this can be a quite an issue for the distance to travel to get the wild ressources to start it again.

Sheering last sheep is bad. I hope we can agree at least on that even if there are different oppinons on how bad it is. Ok?

Last edited by lionon (2018-12-13 21:20:01)

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-13 22:55:27

lionon wrote:

The thing is, without sheering the last sheep that one bowl you had to "trade" for one fleece, it would have become 1 fleece *and* a dung *and* a shorn sheep if you would have been able to give a lamb.

It's true that, for any given bowl, it is better to give it to a lamb than to a shorn sheep, and that the difference between the two is that giving it to the lamb yields an extra poop and an extra shorn sheep (and costs a lamb, but lambs are worthless).

It's also true that, given a woolly sheep, the difference between shearing it and not shearing it is only the cost of an extra berries-and-carrot bowl, and that cost is offset by the yield of an extra fleece.

So there's two ways to look at the question, and each gives a different cost (+1 poop +1 shorn sheep vs. +1 fleece -1 bc-bowl). How can this be reconciled?

The answer is to consider the difference between production cost and opportunity cost. The cost of shearing the last sheep is one berries-and-carrot bowl (let's ignore the fleece for now). What is the cost of that bowl? Its production cost is six berries, one carrot, and the time and effort required to put them all together. But its opportunity cost is the most valuable use that you could have put it to if you hadn't spend it otherwise (in this case, by feeding the shorn sheep to restore lamb production). And what's the most valuable use of a berries-and-carrot bowl? Undoubtedly, it's feeding it to a lamb in order to get a poop and a woolly sheep.

The cost of a bc-bowl is small: six berries and a carrot and a bit of time. The value is large: a poop and a woolly sheep, which is most of 21 soil and 60 food! That's because like so many other things in this game, the compost cycle is a producer - it's a hugely positive-sum game, a free lunch.

So, what's the right way to look at the waste involved in shearing the last sheep? By production cost, or opportunity cost?

The answer is that it depends on the present constraints. If the inputs to the compost cycle are abundant, i.e. if there are plenty of berries and carrots, then the real waste from shearing the last sheep is the marginal cost of producing one additional bc-bowl: six berries, one carrot, and some time and trouble to gather them. If the inputs are scarce, i.e. there are not a lot of berries and/or carrots, then the real waste from shearing the last sheep is the opportunity cost of having to use one of the few remaining bowls of berries-and-a-carrot to restore lamb production instead of feeding it to an existing lamb.

Like so many other things in this game, it comes down to relative scarcity, marginal value, and inventory management within a dynamic system rather than being a simple matter of arithmetic.

Sheering last sheep is bad. I hope we can agree at least on that even if there are different oppinons on how bad it is. Ok?

Definitely agreed. Even in the best case (one bowl of berries, no big deal) it's still disruptive to the compost cycle, and that is a huge issue. All the real challenges in this game are about logistics - ensuring that the right things are in the right places at the right times. Shearing the last sheep interrupts a key production line - lambs - and introduces a delay in output which can become critical to the rest of the cycle. Plus it's annoying and frustrating as hell, which puts a strain on yet another critical resource: player goodwill.

Sylverone · 2018-12-20 16:07:01

I don't think focusing on the singular event is quite the right way to think about it. The unsheared sheep is not what has high value here, it is the rule.

Because I guess I was kind of insane, I did this thing:

My estimate on the time to make and carry the mixed bowls is a complete guess based on what I think a skilled player might manage. Of course distance to berries and carrots affect it. Once you factor in the time that goes into farming the berries and carrots, I would guess that each mixed bowl is worth about 1 minute of time, probably more for slower people and noobs. So shearing the sheep first probably costs about 1.5 times more. And this doesn't count the case where someone shears the sheep again preventing any new lambs. Each time that happens adds another 1 minute to the cost. So someone overshearing could easily double the cost of sheep. In fact... I just realized I overlooked the 30 seconds it takes for a shorn sheep to grow its coat, so I've underestimated the cost. It might approach 2 times the cost even on the first shearing.

So the cost of a single infraction is tiny in the long run, but failure to maintain the rule has a pretty notable cost. The "extra" fleece is a one-time gain, taken at the cost of interrupting the cycle and possibly weakening the rule a bit. The newbs are watching. There is a definite baseline cost that doesn't ever go away, although the situation will determine how much additional circumstantial cost is associated with either choice. I would guesstimate that if you find yourself in a situation where it is truly necessary to sheer the last sheep, probably a mistake has been made at some point. It just seems like a risky choice to me. Rules function best when they are simple, low cost, and people aren't rationalizing around them too much. Anyway, enough rambling from me on that point.

Last edited by Sylverone (2018-12-20 16:11:45)

mrslax · 2018-12-20 20:08:58

The most imported resources from sheep is POOP.

The Fleas, meat, sheepskin are technically secondary byproducts of making sheep poop.

when you share the last sheep you are doubling the time and cost for the next sheep poop. you know the time when everyone fracks out due to no dirt and you need to make compost again.

Shear sheep are marked for killing for meat most of the time.

It is a waste of food for feeding sheared sheep. you get no poop

So due to these facts sharing the last sheep is considered a dick move. and Don't get mad for getting killed for being a dick.

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Griefer signs detected against plausible deniability

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