Water Sustainability

Heady1890 · 2018-11-16 14:06:51

I have been in many villages, with a lot of different farmland, which are dying because water is running out.
As i understand it currently, farming can not be sustainable for a long lasting civilisation, because the wells will run out.

Please correct me if my assumptions are wrong. This is my though process:

lets say i want to live off of carrots.
carrots regrow every 4min, and lets say you need 1min to harvest, plant and water again to start the circle.
so lets say every 5min you can get 5 carrots a 7 food points, which is 35 foods points every 5min.

depending on the temperature you need 1 FP (food point) every 5s to 1 FP every 25s.
this means you need naked in the snow 42 FP in 5min or 12 FP in optimal temperature.
this means a naked person can live off a single field of carrots or 2 people with clothes.

BUT this needs water every 5min (forget soil and seeds for a moment)
a pond or a shallow well recovers a unit of water ever 30min.
This would need 6 ponds/wells for a SINGLE farmland!! to be sustainable and never run out of water!

Do i have any error in my think process?

Thanks

Tramax · 2018-11-16 14:45:32

A pond turns into a shallow well pretty quick - once it runs dry good players will run and get stones.
By the time it turns into a shallow well a second or third pond may have run out. But once the shovel is used on the stony pond to make the shallow well it's a brand new water source! A full well! By the time that well runs out, those second and third ponds have turned into fresh shallow ponds too!
By the time those secondary and tertiary shallow wells are used up - that initial well has had a stanchion kit made for it - hey a brand new water source.
By the time the secondary and tertiary shallow wells have stanchion kits made for them - there's a road to some brand new ponds.
By the time those brand new ponds are exhausted - someone's set up a cistern!

It's all about team efforts

PeaGirl · 2018-11-16 15:07:20

Shallow well is not a long term solution, but at least a possible way to keep farm going for a short term until you find enough iron ores for making important steel tools for deep well: Hammer, ax, shovel, adze, froe, file, chisel<(can be put in bowl later on if not planning on making masonry later) and blade<(for steel saw) and so on, in importance rule.

For shallow well -> Deep well upgrade you will need
4 milkweed stolks = rope
1-2 and 1/5 of butt logs = butt log to planks with froe and wooden hammer made by using adze on butt log. Meaning more butt logs if making deep wells for a first attempt.
2 straight branches = two big cut branches on top of each other, and use adze.

It is a really long process, but with a good smith with smart goals, you should gather in total of 8 iron ores for town to manage the shallow water chrisis.

Now imagine the iron nerf, and you are not allowed to get steel hoe. I bet that hurts enough? Because that hurts me.

Only if exception is that you have iron vein sitting next to you (as I did, when solo played before nerf), but you still would need 8+1 iron to be able to get

Heady1890 · 2018-11-16 15:22:29

I was thinking about how to help/build a civilisation to be able to sustain itself for as long as possible (or eternity). How to build the "perfect" village.

When you build a village and start to farm you use the ponds, when empty build and use shallow wells, when empty build and use deep well, when also empty, build cisterns and gather water from far away. BUT if these water sources also run dry you need to go farther and farther away until it is not possible to sustain the village.

In the last few games i got born into a village in its end phase. i tried to help farming, but i couldn't, because all wells were dry and the water sources around the village were also going dry.

I just think its sad that every village, at on point, will go extinct. And the only option is to take as many tools as possible and create a new village far away.

I just think the recovery rate for water is way too low. I think its a good idea, that water is not an endless ressource, but i think its way too scarce. I think the wells should recover water every 5-10min. then it is possible to sustain a small community.

Redram · 2018-11-16 15:55:52

Heady1890 wrote:

I think the wells should recover water every 5-10min. then it is possible to sustain a small community.

No, that's the easy way out. What needs to happen is Jason needs to sharpen his pencil and work on upper levels of the tech tree. Make upgrades to deep wells, using pumps of various sorts, and/or aquaducts. I'm told he has said at one point that the tech above current is 'cosmetic', but this is a perfect example of an actually useful tech advancement.

Floofy · 2018-11-16 16:46:12

There is one server i sometimes land on, which is very advanced and seems to have been going on for a few days. on left side, there is a farm circled by roads, and above the farm, some sort of castle. There is also a sheep farm on the right.

This "town" seems to clearly be alive for at least 3 days now, and there is PLENTY of newbies living in it, and it keeps going. Imo, this is the proof Jason does not need to make the game easier.

Tarr · 2018-11-16 17:03:35

Floofy wrote:

There is one server i sometimes land on, which is very advanced and seems to have been going on for a few days. on left side, there is a farm circled by roads, and above the farm, some sort of castle. There is also a sheep farm on the right.
This "town" seems to clearly be alive for at least 3 days now, and there is PLENTY of newbies living in it, and it keeps going. Imo, this is the proof Jason does not need to make the game easier.

The only actual reasons town live like that is because Eves come around and respawn in the middle of town. If it wasn't for this fact a lot of towns would just simply be lost once mismanagement, bad rng, or griefers got their grips on the town.

Floofy · 2018-11-16 17:19:48

Tarr wrote:

Floofy wrote:
There is one server i sometimes land on, which is very advanced and seems to have been going on for a few days. on left side, there is a farm circled by roads, and above the farm, some sort of castle. There is also a sheep farm on the right.
This "town" seems to clearly be alive for at least 3 days now, and there is PLENTY of newbies living in it, and it keeps going. Imo, this is the proof Jason does not need to make the game easier.
The only actual reasons town live like that is because Eves come around and respawn in the middle of town. If it wasn't for this fact a lot of towns would just simply be lost once mismanagement, bad rng, or griefers got their grips on the town.

I'd say you're 100% right because apparently, even thought this town has been living on forever, the lines don't carry on.

Starknight_One · 2018-11-16 17:49:10

Tramax wrote:

A pond turns into a shallow well pretty quick - once it runs dry good players will run and get stones.
By the time it turns into a shallow well a second or third pond may have run out. But once the shovel is used on the stony pond to make the shallow well it's a brand new water source! A full well! By the time that well runs out, those second and third ponds have turned into fresh shallow ponds too!
By the time those secondary and tertiary shallow wells are used up - that initial well has had a stanchion kit made for it - hey a brand new water source.
By the time the secondary and tertiary shallow wells have stanchion kits made for them - there's a road to some brand new ponds.
By the time those brand new ponds are exhausted - someone's set up a cistern!
It's all about team efforts

Wells and ponds refill over time. They each get the minimum amount of water 30 minutes after they are emptied, and add one charge every 45 minutes after that. If your farming and cooking isn't using more water than you produce every half-hour, it's not an issue.

Starknight_One · 2018-11-16 17:54:10

PeaGirl wrote:

Shallow well is not a long term solution, but at least a possible way to keep farm going for a short term until you find enough iron ores for making important steel tools for deep well: Hammer, ax, shovel, adze, froe, file, chisel<(can be put in bowl later on if not planning on making masonry later) and blade<(for steel saw) and so on, in importance rule.
For shallow well -> Deep well upgrade you will need
4 milkweed stolks = rope
1-2 and 1/5 of butt logs = butt log to planks with froe and wooden hammer made by using adze on butt log. Meaning more butt logs if making deep wells for a first attempt.
2 straight branches = two big cut branches on top of each other, and use adze.

Don't forget the bowsaw to make the disc for the bottom of the bucket. (I know, that's the "1/5 butt log" in the equation but the saw isn't mentioned.)

What irks me is people stealing the farm bucket to upgrade another well. I need that, you idiot, go make your own! And then they say 'Use a bowl'. You CAN'T get water from a deep well with a bowl!

Sorry. Rant over.

Randomname · 2018-11-16 17:59:09

I once spent a life emptying out the wells into cisterns and building new cisterns to store more water. If you run completely out of water a cart, four buckets and a backpack with pie and bowl is needed. You then go out to find ponds and fill your buckets using a bowl from them.

betame · 2018-11-16 17:59:52

I had that same thought about sustainability a while back, and threw some linear algebra at the question.
"Soil=Sustainablility: Composting Guide and Maths"
In an ideal case, each deep well can support at worst 1 person, and averages around 4 people.

Iron isn't irrelevant anymore though since the Oct 27 nerf for shovel (-60%), iron (-50%), soil (-12.5%), and water regen (-20%). Before steam release, we adapted to the change (the extra labor threw us off for a bit).

Last edited by betame (2018-11-19 18:16:47)

Booklat1 · 2018-11-16 18:00:00

Towns dont really run out of water late game. Not if people are using their resources correctly.

People think cisterns are made to store water from ponds and wells far away but that is just one of it's uses. The idea is to build cisters so that you can empty full wells into them, this way they start refilling earlier and don't get their timers reset each time someone gets water from it. Cisters allow for efficient management of your water supplies. How often do you see towns with full cisterns?

This also goes back to other questions like, should people make farms bigger than their water suply allow? Should people opt for food types that cost less water?

Until few weeks ago we couldn't even tell when cisterns were half full so I understand why people wouldn't use them to thir full extent, but a town with few deep wells, few cistens, enough buckets and carts can't possibly run out of water easily if players are paying attention to it.

betame · 2018-11-16 18:13:06

Some easy points of confusion were in your math:

Shallow wells do regen every 30min, but each new charge has a 6% chance to use, making it average at 16.67 water per charge.
Likewise, a pond regens about 5 water every 30 minutes
and deep wells provide about 40 water per 30-45 minutes.

Food points decrease every 2-22 seconds, as Jason explains here

jasonrohrer wrote:

In the code, the default for minFoodDecrementSeconds is 5.0
But in the server settings folder, that is currently overridden to 2.0 seconds. Thus, the range should be 2.0 to 22.0 seconds.

(4.8s if naked in neutral biome)

Starknight_One · 2018-11-16 18:42:25

betame wrote:

I had that same thought about sustainability a while back, and threw some linear algebra at the question.
"Soil=Sustainablility: Composting Guide and Maths"
But that was before Oct 29 update 159 which nerfed shovel (-60%), iron (-50%), soil (-12.5%), and water regen (-20%). Before steam release, we adapted to the change (the extra labor threw us off for a bit).
With the nerfs, I'd estimate one deep well regens enough water to sustain about 2 people naked in a neutral biome.

Basically, it's just 10 bowls of water every 30 minutes. Counting on the extra water from water gambling is a mugs game. So you could make 3 pots of stew (3 bean fields + 3 squash fields + 1 corn field, 3 stew pots) every 30 minutes with one deep well (which is what I base my calculations on) and not run out of water except between times. But that means no composting, so you'd need a soil source nearby. 3 pots of stew will provide 672 food using current settings. There's probably a more efficient way, but stew has a relatively low barrier to entry.

Adding more ponds/wells just means you can make more food. Of course, that means you're using more iron.

Last edited by Starknight_One (2018-11-16 18:47:35)

CrazyEddie · 2018-11-16 18:43:55

Booklat1 wrote:

The idea is to build cisters so that you can empty full wells into them, this way they start refilling earlier and don't get their timers reset each time someone gets water from it.

So wells regenerate water, but only if they're not being used? Is that right?

Floofy · 2018-11-16 18:45:38

CrazyEddie wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
The idea is to build cisters so that you can empty full wells into them, this way they start refilling earlier and don't get their timers reset each time someone gets water from it.
So wells regenerate water, but only if they're not being used? Is that right?

From what i understand, the timer for refilling starts once its empty. Is that right?

Lily · 2018-11-16 18:53:48

To be frank, you are right that it isn't sustainable, however the game is more about delaying the collapse of civilization than sustaining everything forever. If you set up in a good spot, and do all the wells and stuff, you can probably make it long enough that water doesn't kill the city but something else does.

Starknight_One · 2018-11-16 18:54:16

Floofy wrote:

CrazyEddie wrote:
Booklat1 wrote:
The idea is to build cisters so that you can empty full wells into them, this way they start refilling earlier and don't get their timers reset each time someone gets water from it.
So wells regenerate water, but only if they're not being used? Is that right?
From what i understand, the timer for refilling starts once its empty. Is that right?

The timer is reset when water is put into or taken out of the well.

pein · 2018-11-17 06:31:41

i seen a few cities, generally minimum 3 ponds needed to even consider settling there, and never gonna be too big town anyway
if it's a nice desert and you got some food, and some ponds in like 50 distance, can be still viable

actually i even enjoyed the towns with no water, making buckets and water runs instead of soil runs
but yeah generally water is not a concern, and only if a long gen dies out, and right after comes a new eve and the baby boom happens, can be a problem, but the cart 4 bucket can solve it with a cistern

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#1 2018-11-16 14:06:51

Water Sustainability

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