Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

Joriom · 2018-05-26 21:41:28

So is Jason hypocrite or just can't decide what he really wants from this game? Decide on your own fellas.

On 22.04.2018 Jason counters arguments against tiling hardened soil with worm with his desire for players to be carefull with what they do.
A month later, on 19.05.2018 Jason agrees that being carefull is not interesting and creates bad walking on eggshells feeling.

What are your thoughts?

Forums, 2018-05-19

jasonrohrer wrote:

I agree that a lot of the gameplay focuses on "not doing something," which is not very interesting. I never thought of it that way, but "don't pick the non-fruiting milkweed, don't drain the pond, don't drain the well, don't snare the non-family rabbit, don't forget to water the languishing bush" do kind of create a walking on eggshells feeling. I've drained a pond by accident, picked milkweed at the wrong time, etc, and I always feel like an idiot when I do this. I want players to teach each other things, but mostly that teaching should be how TO do something, not a long list of what not to do.

Quote from Discord (OneHourOneLife #general 04/22/2018)

Joriom - 04/22/2018
@jasonrohrer Using tools to force-tile "hardened soil with worm" should not be possible. I'd rather get more soil when someonne "worms" it for 60 minutes than loose worm if someone tiles ground lying there for a hour.
jasonrohrer - 04/22/2018
New form of griefing?
Joriom, the worm killer
Well, except I wanted you to be careful about the worms.
You have to be careful in real life.
When digging in the garden
Well, there's also food pressure.
You may have it all set up but need to till some NOW
And that, folks, is what I call DRAMA
Yes, it kills the worm!

Stylingirl · 2018-05-26 21:49:00

So he can't change his mind about how he wants his game to be played? Those posts were about a month apart and he explained why he changed his mind. Whether or not the players asking for it changed his mind, it's still his game and I don't blame him for testing out what makes the game play feel right and figuring out what doesn't. With all the plans he aspires to add into the game, is he not allowed to make mistakes, backtrack, and change the game to what he thinks is a satisfactory product?

breezeknight · 2018-05-26 22:08:41

so do we have to be still careful about those worms or not ?
can we till the hardened soil with a hoe even if the worm is in it & it doesn't kill the worm or is this still the thing ?

also yes, why should we care for replanting milkweed if it becomes plucked anyway ?
why replant berry bushes, maybe with some other update it just dies for unknown reasons or dies after the bowl of berries is taken from it

& why teach anybody anything ? what is there to teach ? & why even ask if a player is new ? previous experience doesn't matter anyway as it seems

or should i just widen the spectrum of things i shouldn't care about in the game now ?
i would like to know, cause if all things don't matter, incl the characters' life, then this game becomes rather expendable as well

YAHG · 2018-05-26 22:17:44

We need to be able to breed worms.. Cause you know that's what worms do.

I don't think this is really hypocritical, for that he would have to be doing something he told other people not to do...

Looks like he changed his mind. It also looks like he was wrong about not eggshells feeling sorta kinda. I don't really
know what he thought in his heart of hearts, and I guess I am sorry buddy but I don't really care that much what you
think in your heart of hearts. More your business/problem than mine.

I think un-tilable worms could've been used to grief people pretty harshly by blocking the soil for their whole life. He
has also said stuff about wanting to be able to make bold changes and see what happens.

Sure, he said something that meant one thing and then said something later than negated it. It is a stretch to call this
dishonesty.

Reminds me of watching the Vice presidential debates with my Mom back in the day and Biden goes off on how the other
candidate changed their mind and how we can't have people that do that, can't trust him and such. Mom is thinking what
a zinger.. (I like to argue with the television) I start spouting off about how retarded it would be if the leader never changed
his mind, he might be wrong after all.. brought up examples from Bush II and "the WMD's" etc. and how people gotta be
able to change course in light of new information otherwise we are screwed.

Well that is how I see it. Am interested to hear from all you though still.

Turnipseed · 2018-05-26 22:19:21

Milkweed... now picking it is greifing no matter what

Joriom · 2018-05-26 22:22:40

Just to clarify - I do not accuse Jason of hypocrisy or blame him for changing stuff. I just want to know you honest opinions. Also... clickbait title.

YAHG · 2018-05-26 23:33:22

breezeknight wrote:

so do we have to be still careful about those worms or not ?
can we till the hardened soil with a hoe even if the worm is in it & it doesn't kill the worm or is this still the thing ?
also yes, why should we care for replanting milkweed if it becomes plucked anyway ?
why replant berry bushes, maybe with some other update it just dies for unknown reasons or dies after the bowl of berries is taken from it
& why teach anybody anything ? what is there to teach ? & why even ask if a player is new ? previous experience doesn't matter anyway as it seems
or should i just widen the spectrum of things i shouldn't care about in the game now ?
i would like to know, cause if all things don't matter, incl the characters' life, then this game becomes rather expendable as well

Why eat you are just gonna get hungry anyways?
Why look when you cross the street you will die of Old Age anyways?

-_-

...

jasonrohrer · 2018-05-26 23:56:43

Yeah, I'm not 100% sure about this.

Human activity in the game will permanently alter the landscape. I like that. I like going out around a village and seeing things deforested, with just stumps left from firewood collection. (And before you "yeah but if only" me, replanting trees may be coming someday).

Milkweed was the very first thing I added to the game after berries, years ago at this point.

In fact, it was added back when Tom was drawing the art (I redrew it since then). But I showed him the three stages of Milkweed, and we even went out and picked some pods behind our office, and he drew those stages, along with the monarch, and I put them in..... "What if.... what if.... it only regrows when you wait until it seeds? Then people can learn that, and teach their babies that! And ignorance can slowly ruin the land over time!"

Seemed like an interesting idea at the time. But I didn't repeat that pattern in very many other places. Ponds were kinda like that, and wild carrots used to be (don't dig them to eat, or you lose a source of infinite seeds in the future).

The question: "Is 'careful' one of the primary aesthetics of the game?"

Maybe it is, but probably not at a moment-to-moment level. The milkweed is a great example, because you can ruin it with a misclick or a client-server time mismatch. The pods can go away server-side the moment you pick it. Oops!

The drainable/ruinable ponds and wells are another example, because the visual distinction was either difficult to see or non-existent. I don't want you squinting at your screen.

But I do want you to be "careful" on a more macro level, with how you decide to use limited resources.

I guess I'm talking about "difficult decisions" that you need to make carefully, as opposed to being careful with your immediate actions.

The Castle Doctrine was a game with one-misclick deaths. However, it was turn-based, with no time pressure, and I even offered "move confirmation" two-click safety mode for the most tense moments. You could be killed by the traps you placed in your own house and lose everything. I always said it was "a game about being careful around dangerous things." That is not what this game is about.

The worm row (which I don't think really matters much anymore) is an example not of "being careful" or "learning what not to do" but instead of difficult long-term decisions about how to spend resources. We need the food NOW man, we have to till this row. "No wait, that will waste the worm." It's a tough choice, and because the time-scale is trans-generational, it's not really about being careful moment-to-moment.

HOWEVER, I guess I should at least give it a strong visual distinction. You should see the worm in there crawling around. It shouldn't be about tilling the row by accident because it looks the same.

So my desire for DRAMA remains the same.

I don't know if I ever felt like picking milkweed at the wrong time resulted in drama. It was just a little wrinkle that I put in there long ago.

The pond, on the other hand, could be the source of drama, when you're out of water and the village is dying, you might need to take that last bit and ruin the pond in an emergency. But again, the visual distinction problem makes that likely even when you're not deciding to do it.

Lily · 2018-05-27 06:42:47

Wormy soil definitely needs more obvious visuals. The few times I tried to use worms, everyone just plowed them over without even noticing. If someone sees a bunch of worms all over it, they will at least stop and ask what the heck that is, so we have a chance to explain what we are doing. Then they might disagree and plow it anyway because they don't want to wait, but at least it is on purpose then.

YAHG · 2018-05-27 06:48:15

Lily wrote:

Wormy soil definitely needs more obvious visuals. The few times I tried to use worms, everyone just plowed them over without even noticing. If someone sees a bunch of worms all over it, they will at least stop and ask what the heck that is, so we have a chance to explain what we are doing. Then they might disagree and plow it anyway because they don't want to wait, but at least it is on purpose then.

If wormy soil can be tilled to kill the worms while at the same time you can just grab the worms out before you till by
hand and save them, then being able to till the worms is just another eggshell "don't pick the non-fruiting milkweed
moment". IIR this is the spirit of the latest update. Might as well not be possible, error serves no purpose other than
to provide "ops" moments.

Lily · 2018-05-27 06:53:14

Yeah I agree. Might as well just make it so you can't till soil with worms in it. If you can just pick them up and move them, then it is easy enough to remove them first then till, so there isn't so many accidents.

Joriom · 2018-05-27 07:14:15

Lily wrote:

Yeah I agree. Might as well just make it so you can't till soil with worms in it. If you can just pick them up and move them, then it is easy enough to remove them first then till, so there isn't so many accidents.

So naiive. And what stops trolls from picking up every single worm every 30-45 minutes to "reset timer" and make them never do their job?

"Oops" interactions are fuel for trolls.

YAHG · 2018-05-27 09:13:23

Nothing is ever idiot proof. C'est la vie?

Spockulon · 2018-05-27 16:26:50

BREAKING NEWS ALERT!

Jason Rohrer discovered to be human being...

Updates to follow...

fragilityh14 · 2018-05-27 16:35:07

There's no meaningful reason worms should be a finite resource in worm pits, both in terms of realism and gameplay as it's a whole hour

also, Jason, what made you decide to use milkweed of all things, instead of flax or something like that? I looked this up, and it has been used occasionally throughout history but it's pretty obscure fiber. This is the only wikipedia mention

"The bast fibers of some species can be used for cordage."

Lily · 2018-05-27 17:07:19

Joriom wrote:

Lily wrote:
Yeah I agree. Might as well just make it so you can't till soil with worms in it. If you can just pick them up and move them, then it is easy enough to remove them first then till, so there isn't so many accidents.
So naiive. And what stops trolls from picking up every single worm every 30-45 minutes to "reset timer" and make them never do their job?

Well if it is between permanently killing the worms and just delaying the soil, I would rather have it delayed. Also if you can't remove the worms, then people can grief you by putting a bunch of worms in all the soil. No matter what you do, someone can do something if they really want to grief.

Go! Bwah! · 2018-05-27 19:12:34

Forums, 2018-05-19

jasonrohrer wrote:

I never thought of it that way

He thought about things some more and came to some new conclusions. No big.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2018-05-26 21:41:28

Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#2 2018-05-26 21:49:00

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#3 2018-05-26 22:08:41

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#4 2018-05-26 22:17:44

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#5 2018-05-26 22:19:21

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#6 2018-05-26 22:22:40

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#7 2018-05-26 23:33:22

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#8 2018-05-26 23:56:43

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#9 2018-05-27 06:42:47

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#10 2018-05-27 06:48:15

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#11 2018-05-27 06:53:14

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#12 2018-05-27 07:14:15

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#13 2018-05-27 09:13:23

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#14 2018-05-27 16:26:50

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#15 2018-05-27 16:35:07

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#16 2018-05-27 17:07:19

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

#17 2018-05-27 19:12:34

Re: Jason the Hypocrite? Undecided developer? Vision change?

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