Suggestion, Alternative to Cursing

Greenwood4 · 2021-06-21 12:07:32

Hi there : ). Just thought I'd post this small suggestion for the developer. I've been playing the game for a few years now (albeit sporadically) and based on the complaints of others it seems that a small change like I am proposing could help bring life back to the game a little.

Cursing has been a staple of One Hour One Life almost since its inception, with the ability to effectively isolate players from the game being one of the main anti-griefing tools.

However, this system has a number of problems with it that force the developer to choose between either making cursing more powerful - and thus punishing griefers - or making it less powerful so that those who are cursed unjustly are not made to wait so long. Perhaps a new approach is needed to avoid alienating large sections of the One Hour One Life community while also making sure that truly toxic members of said community are dealt with in a proper manner.

The fact is that One Hour One Life is a cooperative game. One curse is the same as any other, meaning that players are given free reign to curse those not only for griefing, but for not conforming to their playstyle which they deem most beneficial for their tribe's survival. Should somebody be cursed simply for not working as hard as everyone else? What if they're a new player, or even an experienced player who is trying to do something interesting for the town such as build a town hall which, while not strictly imperative to their survival, might still make said town far more interesting?

Therefore, how about a more traditional system for the reporting of players. In game you can "mark" somebody you think is behaving badly, and once the game is over you're prompted to write a report on said person. If a certain number of reports are filed against the same player, this can be looked into by a moderator and, if necessary, the troublesome player can be banned temporarily or permanently.

The fact that one needs to actually write a report rather than simply press a button in game means that there would be far fewer reports than there are curses now, and those reports that are placed are more likely to be genuine. Furthermore, this system would allow for distinction between reports, so that players are only banned from the game for true griefing or the breaching of community guidelines, as opposed to simply doing something that the community does not like. While an in-game feedback loop which allows tribes to deal with troublesome players is needed, this is already covered by the existing posse system and should not be muddled with a report system for actual griefers and toxic players who need to be removed from the community in order to make sure that this community stays inclusive.

Naturally, such a system would rely upon more manual work in the form of checking over such report forms, and for this I would recommend looking to trusted moderators in the community. If the developer were to write up some guidelines telling the moderators what does and does not count as a bannable offence, the system should be able to work much more cohesively than the current curse mechanic does. It might also be worthwhile putting in a word limit or some other limitation on reports so that they can be read through quickly, encouraging players to be succinct and cutting down on the work needed.

Please keep in mind that this system relies upon the assumption that there would be relatively few instances in which moderators would need to look into reports, as this would only happen when multiple, written reports have been submitted about the same player. This suggests that multiple people have taken considerable time and thought to report on somebody, suggesting that said person may be worth dealing with depending on the nature of those reports. A degree of moderator discretion would be relied upon for the making of said judgement.

I hope that this suggestion is useful.

Last edited by Greenwood4 (2021-06-21 12:12:08)

DestinyCall · 2021-06-21 15:42:07

Yes please. This is a good suggestion.

I've thought this game would benefit from real moderation since the first time I encountered a serial griefer and realized they were going to keep harassing other people until they got bored of murdering unarmed children for fun. With our community as small as it is and the game designed around cooperative work, even a single bad apple can ruin the game experience for dozens of players. And the lack of any real consequences for bad behavior makes our griefer population even more bold and more persistent.

Some people grief out of boredom. Others grief out of frustration or anger or hate. Sometimes players grief as a way of attracting the dev's attention to a broken mechanic or as a form of protest. Still others grief because they enjoy spreading chaos and ruining the hard work of others. It is fun for them and they laugh when their victims cry. There are as many reasons to grief as there are ways to grief. People are endlessly creative at finding ways to hurt each other and spread misery.

When people say "griefing", they often mean different things. For some, it is anyone doing anything they do not like. For others, it is only players engaged in certain activities, like killing or stealing.

Personally, I define griefing by intent to do harm to another player. Specifically, I use the term 'Griefing' to describe when a player within a multiplayer online environment intentionally disrupts another player's game experience for his or her own personal enjoyment or gain. This is not the same as someone misbehaving or acting annoying for legitimate game reasons. A new player who kills all the sheep out of ignorance of the in-game mechanics is not a griefer, even though killing all sheep is a tactic used by actual griefers. A player who destroys an adobe kiln because he is moving the smithy to a better location is also not griefing, even though he caused property damage and destroyed something valuable to the village. Someone that takes your cart without asking so he can gather buckets of water for their dying village is not griefing, even if they were a little rude and could have asked for permission. Hurting the village or other players accidentally or with good intentions is not griefing. It is a normal part of the game and part of what keeps each life different and interesting. The hard part is distinguishing between the two and keeping the levels of REAL griefing under control so people can enjoy playing the game together, instead of constantly worrying about murder hobos.

Ideally, moderators would only need to act if someone is repeatedly and persistently attacking the community. Anyone can have a bad day and take it out on other people. All players occasionally make stupid choices that hurt other people. They might cause a little grief, but they are in large part good players who contribute to the game more often than not. The problem is we also have some players who do nothing but grief. It is their primary playstyle and main way to take enjoyment from this game. And it hurts this game and its playerbase. Many good people have been driven away from this wonderful game because of the actions of a few dedicated griefers. OHOL inspires amazing depth of emotion from its players. You can become deeply invested in saving your village and helping your family. But this also leaves you vulnerable to the negative impact of griefing. We will never know how many people stopped playing OHOL because they experienced intolerably high levels of grief, but it is not a small number. Yet it could have been prevented by banning a few very active griefers.

In my opinion, serial griefing is a type of cyber bullying, intentionally targeting other players and causing harm for their own amusement. It has no place in this game and drives away good players. Our community would be better off without serial griefers.

Ideally, once identified, griefers could be given a temporary ban that restricts them to only playing on one of the low pop servers. This "donkeytown server" would allow them to continue to play the game with others while keeping them off the main server where new players will first experience the game. Like "the street" in Discord, the moderators would ignore the DT server - it will be the wild west of OHOL with no curses and no consequences. Every man for himself. Meanwhile, the main server can be geared toward more peaceful, cooperative gameplay that is better for player retention and civilixation-building.

If a griefer returns to the main server after a temporary ban and continues to cause trouble and attract moderator attention, they get a longer ban. Most people would learn from their mistakes and not require further moderation. But some people would keep stirring up trouble and get banned over and over. I recommend that the duration of the ban be based on time played in Donkey Town, rather than real time.
This way, you couldn't just keep griefing until you get banned and then switch to another game while waiting for the ban to expire. Eventually, unrepentant serial griefers would be permanently banned. At that point, they could only access the Donkey Town server. Non-banned players could join DT server to play with banned friends or if they wanted to play without fear of reprisals from the moderators. This system could be avoided by purchasing multiple accounts, but then again, so can the current curse system.

I think the addition of moderator oversight and permanent consequences for the worst offenders would substantially reduce overall griefing while allowing the playerbase to maintain a high level of personal freedom.

The hard part will be convincing Jason to trust moderators or implement an effective curse system that automates the process. Human oversight would be safer but not fool-proof.
Some people are always going to complain about being banned. And the ones who deserve it the most tend to yell the loudest. Jason would much rather not have any kind of moderation what-so-ever and tends to go for only the bare minimum. So we are left with a broken system that only barely functions most of the time.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2021-06-21 17:53:52)

Joriom · 2021-06-21 19:31:25

Curse system is in the game exactly because of suggestions like that. When choosing a system to respond to people requests about protecting themselves from "unwanted" people Jason evaluated different options and went with curse system.

Requirement for any user input - as in moderators - was a big no-no. Jason didn't want game operations to depend on additional human input. People loose interest, people move on, people are prone to bias, people are the biggest weak point. OHOL was supposed to be ran with full features even after Jason himself left the game and moved on. Having human moderators would also hit one of Jasons big points - its "his game" and his the sole person responsible for that. Its his marvel. Any interaction from other people that might make them take credit for any part of the game - be it design, production or upkeep - is a big no-no again.

On the other hand there is point of griefing and if it even should be moderated.
A lof of OHOL is about living unique and meaningfull experience of a limited time life where everything is sparse and you need to work with people to survive. Game was designed around drama. Food ran out. You got sick or killed by a wild animal. Wood or other resource became sparse. OR you got killed or stolen from. Or some crazy person decided to ruin your yard that was keeping you alive.
The point is: Griefing is not bad on its own. Griefing brings drama and should keep you engaged, make you worry about the future and your souroundings. Human interactions to detect and deal with griefers are also bringing drama. Was this person really going to do something stupid? Did killing him really save us or am I just a terrible person? Will others understand or will I be next on the chopping block because I look like a murder hobo now? Or on the other hand - we should have seen the signs faster and got rid of that person!

Sadly - players didn't rise to the challenge and instead of trying to solve problems themselves cried for "system" to deal with it for them. After really long time and plenty of discusions - curse system was born. System that puts the power in hands of the players themselves and doesn't require input from unrelated humans (moderators).

Greenwood4 wrote:

One curse is the same as any other, meaning that players are given free reign to curse those not only for griefing, but for not conforming to their playstyle which they deem most beneficial for their tribe's survival.

^
This. This is exatly the point of entire cursing system and brings drama as well. Should people really waste their curses for slight things like uncompatibile playstyle? I don't think so. It sounds dumb because those people take the tool they have to deal with bigger problems out of their hands. But thats their own decision. Power in the hands of people. Don't blame the tool. Blame whoever is using it for using it incorrectly. And blame the idiots who can't think ahead and throw curses left and right.

From the game design standpoint: Curses are bad system, human moderation would be way better.
From OHOL drama standpoint: Moderation would take away much of the required drama while curses try to balance it out.

Greenwood4 · 2021-06-21 19:56:52

Those are some good points Joriom, however they rely more on the "ideal" of the game then its reality. You also do not seem to realise the need for a distinction between in-game drama and the "meta" necessity to remove those that are toxic to the community. Cursing seems to be both an in-game function and a moderating tool at the same time, blurring the distinction between the two and thus failing to fit truly into either function.

Perhaps a good first step would be to create a set of community guidelines? A list of what is and what is not tolerated in the One Hour One Life community.

For example, murdering someone in game might not be something that is on such a list. After all, murder, while annoying at times, is a part of the game and can be interesting. However, there needs to be a firm stance on how to deal with very real issues such as discrimination and cyberbullying through the One Hour One Life Platform. In addition, those that go out of their way to continually destroy in-game communities by abusing the mechanics of the game (which, due to all manner of technicalities, is very easy), need to be addressed in some way to prevent them from ruining the experience of others.

You are right that this is subjective, but you also seem to presume that clarity on social standards is some alien concept. With a clear set of community guidelines you could at the very least take a step in the right direction.

Even if this was not followed up by any moderator or developer action, if you had a set of community guidelines that was made public in the game - maybe even on the title screen - that would give people a much better frame of reference from which to place their curses at the very least. While curses are far from ideal, they are right now the only tool for moderating the community, so if you're going to give the playerbase the chance to moderate itself at least give those players some more information besides "curse those you don't like".

While it sounds nice in principal, allowing toxicity to run rampant in the community is not the best way to run a game, especially one that relies so heavily on multiplayer and cooperation. Nor is it something that makes the game more interesting, or makes all but a small minority of players more "free". Tolerating player eccentricities is fine, but you need to draw a line where those players are preventing others from having fun and expressing their own freedom.

Last edited by Greenwood4 (2021-06-21 20:00:19)

Dodge · 2021-06-21 20:55:09

It would take a large amount of people scrolling for hours reading lines and lines of text and debating with all parties to figure out if someone is an actual griefer and not an in game situation or anything else going on, it's not viable at all.

And that's not even the main issue.

It's against the philosophy of the game.

There is no rules.

The same way there is no actual official rules for life the only rules are the ones that we create ourselves to not have chaos and anarchy but you have the choice to follow them or not and in that case risk the consequences if you dont.

Players or even each different group, family or civilisation decide what rules they want to create in game and apply them.

The only reason the curse system exists is because reincarnation exists, if you kill someone that didnt follow your arbitrary set of rules they can just come back hence why curses where added.

Dont get me wrong the current system is not the best, because of how the game is made and being able to respawn at will in different families, the ones that you cursed can avoid the punishment.

More tools for players to enforce their set of rules they create and a better system that ensures that these rules cant be bypassed when they have been applied by the group.

Another way to see it is cursing is like murder or prison in real life, if your group decided that this person didnt follow your rules then you effectivly removed them from the possibility to interact with that group ever, and they wouldn't be able to cheese it in any way like respawning in another family and travelling to another, except buying another account but that's pretty much unfixable and also it's not free so that's big enough of a deterrent over time.

That's really what should be focused on.

Making a set of official server rules of "you cant do this" or "you cant do that" would make the game even more bland and sterile.

Those rules only make sense if you play a very scripted game that SHOULD be played a certain way.

That's not what OHOL is about, this game is about the freedom to do wathever you want, making your own choices, but other players might not agree with those choices.

And that's where the story begins...

Joriom · 2021-06-21 21:08:42

I wish I could have my thoughts so well organized and put in words as Dodge. Well said mate. Well said.

DestinyCall · 2021-06-21 21:48:19

The biggest problem I have with the current system is it doesn't really do a good job of removing repeat offenders. Even if you have managed to piss off 90% of the active players, you will still be able to slip into the game, if you keep trying. It gets increasingly more difficult as more people have you cursed, but you are never really "stuck" in DT, no matter how horribly you at and how strongly the other players don't want you around.

Curses right now act more like a restraining order, not prison. If you piss off enough players, you will be persona-nongrata all over the server yet, you can still play the game and continue to grief more people just by playing at a different time slot or waiting until the servers go quiet at night to pick off families. In a way, the curse system was much better back when it was triggered by hitting a certain number of unique curses in a set time period. It felt more like a consensus vote and actually stuck for a while, since they would need to work off their curse debt by actually playing the game in DT. And it felt good when you spotted a murderer or baby kidnapper and had the chance to warn everyone so they could be cursed by the whole village.

There have always been problems with people cursing for bad reasons or cursing based on bad information. Thankfully, we now have the ability to forgive curses, which think is a great feature. However, I think the amount of "bad" cursing is over-exaggerated and essentially cancels itself out. One person cursing people for crappy reasons is not going to send anyone to DT by themselves. It requires a lot of people all cursing the same person to do that, even with the current individualized curses. The main benefit of your personal curse is preventing that person from being born to you in a future life. Which is a nice benefit since it decreases the problem of griefer kids and lets you trust your own children a bit more than other people's kids.

The main problem I have with the current system is the problem I've had with the curses system since I started playing. It doesn't really get to the root of the problem. Griefing is a problem of bad actors. It is not really an in-game problem, but rather a problem of the player base. Trying to solve a player-based problem with an in-game mechanic doesn't really work well, because any tools you give players to protect themselves against the griefers will be equally available to the griefers themselves. And if you have someone who is going to just keep griefing no matter what, there's no way for the community to really stop them without the ability to perma-ban. And that kind of power doesn't really belong in the hands of the average player.

The game that I always think about when considering OHOL's curse system is Spacestation13. This is a different kind of game, but it has the same high level of freedom and ability for players to do a wide range of actions that could be potential disastrous, while simultaneously trying to work together toward a common goal. In SS13, there are rules for in-game behavior, called Space Law, which is enforced by Security agents - other players who have the job to keep the station safe and law-abiding. Meanwhile, each server has its own rules of conduct for players which are enforced by moderators. In addition to normal crewmembers, there are also antagonist roles who are tasked with doing a variety of nefarious deeds in order to achieve their win conditions. Breaking Space Law will get you in trouble with Security, but might be a necessary part of being a successful antagonist. However, breaking the server rules will get you in trouble with the moderators, even if you are playing as an antagonist, because those rules are for the player NOT the character. Some players can't resist being disruptive and doing things to rile people up and spread chaos. And SS13 is VERY chaotic game. But even in all that chaos, there are rules and certain things that nobody wants you to do. The moderators intervene when bad in-game behavior seems to reflecting a player who isn't acting in the spirit of the game. Each server that runs SS13 has a slightly different philosophy regarding what is appropriate and what is unacceptable . It is really fascinating to play on a few different servers to see the difference that can be created by moderation alone. The unmoded or lightly moderated servers are much more chaos driven and murder-filled, but tend to be easy to join and understand what you can do. The more restrictive servers are more role-play oriented and more peaceful (to an extent) but it can be harder to follow all the rules perfectly as a new player. Either environment can be enjoyable and I tend to gravitate toward more middle-of-the-road options that try to strike a balance between order and chaos.

I don't think that OHOL would benefit from a lot of heavy-handed moderation. But it would make a world of difference if there was an actual higher authority that could address when a particular player is consistently making the game worse for others, as identified by the players themselves.

JonySky · 2021-06-22 10:35:56

The current curse system doesn't work for many reasons ...
I agree with Dodge on many points, but I would add other things:

The current game is extremely boring and repetitive, and this leads to childish behaviors and annoying players
But ... griefers will always be in the game ... regardless of the current state of the game (this happens in all video games)

Trying to eliminate or move these players is absurd and will never work ...

I would use these behaviors to generate new mechanics and enrich the game with a diversity of types of players (something similar to the stories that were generated long ago ... before the rift)

The problem is that the mechanics of the game have never been balanced to make the game fun for everyone ...

For example when the swords of war appeared ... the system was so unbalanced that a single player could devastate the entire server effortlessly ...
Another example was the famous "killer dance" that turned a skilled player into an unattainable player.
Another example is the gang mechanics ... totally illogical and confusing that blocks assassination for everyone except leaders (leaders assigned by a completely broken genetic point system)

All these systems and mechanics are unfair to both sides ...

It honestly doesn't seem fair to me to send a player to DonkeyTown for using a bow and arrow to kill another player ...
Killing a player is a mechanic implemented in OHOL and it is totally legitimate ... why can a group of players "ban" another player for using a mechanic implemented in the game? It is unfair...

or for example: why "ban" another player for raising wild boars or pitbulls ..., when these elements are included in the game? this is a contradiction

The problem is that it is not balanced ... there is no possibility of countering an attack, the system is not well implemented

Another very different thing are the "immoral" and "disrespectful" behaviors with a community, (for example racism, homophobia or the use of cheats) for this reason video game developers have expulsion systems for this type of players with reports of online players

Jason as always .... tried to invent the wheel with his famous "innovative solutions" (ex: gang mechanics)
and it was not necessary because all this was already invented ...

Last edited by JonySky (2021-06-22 14:33:22)

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2021-06-21 12:07:32

Suggestion, Alternative to Cursing

#2 2021-06-21 15:42:07

Re: Suggestion, Alternative to Cursing

#3 2021-06-21 19:31:25

Re: Suggestion, Alternative to Cursing

#4 2021-06-21 19:56:52

Re: Suggestion, Alternative to Cursing

#5 2021-06-21 20:55:09

Re: Suggestion, Alternative to Cursing

#6 2021-06-21 21:08:42

Re: Suggestion, Alternative to Cursing

#7 2021-06-21 21:48:19

Re: Suggestion, Alternative to Cursing

#8 2021-06-22 10:35:56

Re: Suggestion, Alternative to Cursing

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