Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

forman · 2021-05-28 23:20:40

Paradox you realize that some of those old villages are so far away that it is literally faster to craft everything then to go all the way to pick it (even with a truck)

With that in mind, I don't really see the point in a reboot because all of the map that is 10k+ east is already effectively gone.

I didn't realize you hate the roads so much (given that you paved a ton?) but even after a reboot that road will be rebuilt very quickly.

Paving thousands of tiles out in the middle of nowhere is no different that paving close tiles when you are born in the middle of nowhere.

I think you are blaming the roads for a problem that is really on the Eves. They keep going back to old towns, they often reliant on old gear.

But I don't even see much of a problem there either because a new has loads of work to be done that cannot be 'brought over'.

Buildings, farms, shelving, flooring, smiting.

If anything a quick truck drop is just a little boost of clothes and tools before they break or get lost in the woods.

I personally don't like trying to catch rabbits without a pack -- but that's just me.

DestinyCall · 2021-05-28 23:58:22

Paradoxal_1 wrote:

Telling people to calm their tits is hardly having a civil discussion.

Do you have some kind of problem with relaxed tits?

fug · 2021-05-29 00:21:50

It's very clear that everyone in the thread is passionate about the game and it's just as clear that people are unsatisfied with different aspects of the game.

Hopefully when Jason returns to content we'll get some of these issues solved.

Paradoxal_1 · 2021-05-29 01:11:57

Calm your tits, my friend. We are having a civil discussion here. There is no need to shout to be heard.

-That is opposite of being civil.

-----------------

So just to be clear, are we talking about resetting the server a couple of times a year? Once every month? Every couple of weeks? Every week? On a fixed wipe-cycle or just whenever the last family dies or some other tech milestone or failure condition is reached? You have mentioned a variety of time-frames from very long to quite short, scheduled or random. It makes it hard to understand what you really want. I apologize if I misunderstood your intentions previously.

-I do not want anything. But anything except never should be fine. And not for my personal selfish reasons, but for the game to be fun for new players.

----------------------------------

Regarding server resets during the Rift, I don't recall the exact length of the longest arc back in the Rift days, but I am pretty sure it was a time-frame that would be measured in hours or days, not weeks. Once the Eve window closed, it was a rapid descent into chaos and death every time. I vividly recall how ridiculously fast the first couple of arcs ended while Jason was still tweaking the fail conditions. Later on, most of them seemed to last a couple days at most. Some ending just hours after the Eve window closed. Did we even manage a week long arc in the Rift?

-Noone is asking to stop eve from spawning. I do know know why to bring this up. Have eve spawn up to the last minute the server resets. It makes no difference. It only matters that there is an end, so there can be a beginning.

-----------------------------------

Personally, I'd rather not have a variable arc length, like during the Rift. It made me lose my connection to the game, because it was hard to get invested early on in the arc when you didn't know if it was going to be a lo ng one or a short one. I didn't want to start any big projects that might require several lives to finish, because it might vanish the next day, without any warning, wiping away my efforts in an instant. And if the arc lasted a long time, it was still hard to get excited because an arc that lasted longer than normal was even more likely to end before I logged back in. Either way, the frequent, unpredictable resets encouraged me to "live in the moment" and killed a lot of my enthusiasm for the multi-generational aspect of this game. I like helping to build an early village and coming to check back on its progress from time to time. See how it grows, add personalized features, improve organization, that kind of thing. I get attached to a place and want to see it develop and thrive over time. Random frequent wipes are not compatible with getting deeply invested in your town.

-I am not interested in what you or I want personally. I am only giving insight on how the average player sees this game. The average player sees this game as a problem solving crafting RPG game. When no problems are left to solve. The game becomes dull.

-----------------------------------------------

So what about less frequent, routine server wipes? Maybe once a week or every two weeks or every month? Would that work?

-I never said once a week. Once again, please go back and read my posts. I have said every single time, a few weeks or a few months. Once again, putting words into my mouth I never said. Emotion is clouding reality.

--------------------------------------------

Keep in mind, that it takes less than 24 hours to reach the top of the tech tree currently. And that rapid tech progression is critical due to the current well mechanics. You will run out of water and die if you don't push straight through to oil tech rapidly. There's no ability to linger in earlier stages, because normal water usage will exhaust early wells quite rapidly.

-Noone will run out of water. There are endless duck ponds out there. Also you can make other water wells outside of town. You guys will mine oil 5000 to 10000 tiles away. I personally witnessed this during the eve spawn bug. This is the one and only good thing to come out of the eve spawn bug. We proved noone will ever run out of oil or water on the endless rift.

--------------------------------------------

Even without help from past generations, that tech rush is going to happen in any village with seasoned players. Because it HAS to happen in order for the village to survive. A village full of noobs will just die out when they hit a chokepoint, because they won't know how to solve the problem fast enough to prevent death. Fortunately/ unfortunately, too many new players is typically not a big problem in OHOL, except during a Steam sale. Dodged a bullet there.

-A village of noobs should die when they hit a chokepoint. Humans learn from their failures. To error is human. Humans learn more from failure then from success. Players learn from pros on how they solve problems. Too many new players should not be seen as a problem. It should be welcomed, but sadly many pros see the new player rush as something to oppose and shun.

------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile, we are currently experiencing a decent amount of family turnover. Old families die out. New Eves are created. A new village is born, grows old, and dies again.

-Currently, the no 1 reason for families to die and new eves created is low population after peek hours, then come morning new eves spawn as the population rises. If the game had more players, this would not happen.

--------------------------------------

Each time this happens, we get pushed further to the west, leaving behind the old towns and whatever we don't take with us. Even if we didn't wipe the server for a year, we wouldn't have a full year of trucks/racecars/engines/oil/etc in the active part of the map. There are lots of people tirelessly working to preserve the work of past generations, but stuff still gets left behind or lost (or purposefully hidden) all the time. We don't save every truck or every tank of oil. We don't raid every dead town or empty every oil well. And once it gets left behind for a day or two, we are unlikely to go back for it, due to the rapid rate of our westward march. In a month, we are so far away from our starting point, it might as well be on the moon. You can only travel so far in a single lifetime. The server might be infinite, but our lives are not.

-Here is where you are very wrong, and oblivious to how nothing ever gets forgotten or left behind. I have been monitoring the online map. You can check this yourself, if you know how. Players have cleaned out the map of every truck,car, and can of oil, engine, and tarry spot for 20000 tiles. It is a strange bare area on the map. There are players who I call The Cleaners. Noone leaves a high value item behind. Every single high value item is brought into the current play area. Do a map search for all delivery trucks or kero on the map. There is a huge blank spot spanning 20000 tiles in the middle. There are only a few trucks left at the very start of the server area, and only because someone has brought them there during the eve spawn bug, otherwise there would be none. But, between that server start area and the current play area is a huge 20000 tiles of nothingness. Dozens and dozens of old ghost towns, but zero high value tech items. None of these super high value items are forgotten or left behind. Every truck, kero, and yes even water well engine pumps are all pulled from every town and salvaged. I have even brought engines to old towns thousands of tiles into the past and placed them into old water wells and fueled them up to deter pirates from taking them to see. I have hid tanks of oil or kero or cars behind random trees and buildings and walls and swamps in many areas all over this center part of the map as an experiment. Guess what. They took every engine from every well, every tank of kero from behind every tree, every car and truck very well hidden off the beaten path, every single time. And this is 5000-20000 tiles into the east. Nothing escapes the prying eyes of the treasure hunters. They will travel thousands and thousands of tiles for one tank of kero. As long as there is an online map showing locations of every high tech item on the server, there will be a treasure hunter bringing those high value items into the future. This is one of the main reasons we need server resets once in a while, or items that expire.

-----------------------------

So what length of time would be long enough to satisfy my desire to build and watch my town grow, but short enough to satisfy your desire for a "blank slate" and a fresh start for new players joining the server?

-Once again, I am not interested in what you or I want. I am only interested in growing the player base. 20-40 players online most days is far from a successful steam game. We need to look at the game from fresh players viewpoints, not our own.

------------------------------------------------

With the current state of the game, I don't see much point in a monthly reset. It probably wouldn't feel any different than having no reset at all, with respect to tech accumulation, and it would really suck to play during the week leading up to the wipe, since you would know that nothing you built could last for a long time.

-One viewpoint is yours, feeling it sucks to have server reset soon. But, is there any other viewpoints out there? I am challenging you all to try to see others viewpoints and come outside of your box. I bet there are some players out there who are excited to have a server reset days away and cannot wait to get rid of the ten delivery trucks in every town and property fences full of oil and engines. To be free of paved roads at every eve camp. To have a reason to build that first delivery truck again, instead bringing that old truck back from an old town.

---------------------------------------------

Weekly resets would be a little too fast for my preference, but might be the most the game can handle right now, since the pacing is so rapid and late game content is lacking.

-Once again, I have never one time, ever asked for a reset every week. I have always said every few weeks or few months.

-------------------------------

Personally, I would prefer every other week, with the server wipe coinciding with a new game update, so Jason can make any changes he wants and push them out to a clean map.

-Every two weeks would be pushing it, but if there were updates every two weeks, I could see that being ok with players. If no update every 2 weeks, I think this could be too soon for everyone to lose all their hard work for nothing in return. Lets remember to think of the average new player who just picked up this game. We want to grow the player base. It is way to small at the moment. Lets focus on what average new players would want, and not what the 20 pro seasoned players want.

----------------------------------------

That could be fun and it would give people plenty of time to build and develop their towns before the reset. Even if we theoretically could keep villages alive for longer than two weeks on an infinite map, in practice, I don't think we are actually able to do it. Trying to keep a village alive and functional for a whole week or two would be a serious challenge, I bet.

-The goal of the game is not to keep a town alive for weeks remember. The goal of the game is to get the town to the next level. Lets remember, new players do not like living in a maxed out town with nothing to do. When a town is maxed out, it is ok for that town to die after a while. The game is about the climb. The game is not about staying at the top as long as possible.

-------------------------------------------------------

Also, I think it would be great if the well upgrades could be tweaked to reduce water pressure in early towns, so the shallow/deep wells gave more water before exhausting. This would allow villages to develop more slowly and linger at the "pre-oil" stages for a longer time, rather than rushing up the tech tree. Allowing towns to be more self-sufficient and progress at different paces would also help stratify villages into different tech levels which would increase family diversity. Ideally, I would like to always have the option to be born in a very early town, a very late town, and a couple mid range to towns. Not everyone wants to be a city-dweller or a caveman ... but it would be great if we could have more options to play whichever way we find most enjoyable.

-If you ask me personally about the water wells, I personally think to need: some latex, some sulfur, some palm oil, a whole bucket of water, a whole basket of coal every single time you want to use the water well, is a bit extreme for the average noob player to deal with. I think this area should be reeled back in a bit. This is a huge bottleneck, and I seen towns get stuck here quite often. Tires are actually quite a bit harder to come by then a tank of oil.

---------------------------------------------------

Regarding the desires of the average player, I think the "average" player just wants to enjoy their time in OHOL. That might mean any of the things you listed and many that you did not ... like looting old towns and returning to town with a treasure trove of valuable items or a new truck. Or making a lot of tacos. Personally, I am not a big fan of feeling "the wall of spikes slowly approaching and the impending doom coming for them if they do not focus on their crafting goals", but I don't have anything against people who are into that sort of thing. Different strokes for different folks, you know?

-There is nothing wrong with looting old towns, I like that part of the game. There is nothing wrong with making a TacoBell in game either. Both are fun activities. But, because of the online treasure map, and certain high tech items lasting forever, too much treasure is being brought forward, and it is leaking into every eve camp ruining the stone age part of their story. Every eve camp for months have always had another towns dyed clothing, engines, trucks, and engines dropped off to them at some point before a sheep pen is made without anyone asking for that help. It is dumped on them without them wanting it. It is actually alot less fun to play in an eve camp once all the bottlenecks dumped in the center of their camp, goals are taken away, and everyone has fine clothing and cars to drive around while the original eve is still alive. My solution to this problem is simple and fair. All items have expiration dates to limit excess item buildups on the server from treasure hunters bringing them forward, and or to reset the server after some point before item build up becomes a problem. Does Jasons trailer video show treasure hunters dropping off clothes and engines to every stone age eve settlement. No. It shows early man wearing bunny rabbit furs, then mid game knit clothing, then top hats and button up shirts and pants.

--------------------------------------------------------

In my mind, variety is the spice of life and too many limitations or restrictions just get in the way. This game is at its best when you have many ways to live. Too much doom gets overwhelming and mentally exhausting. Too little hardship becomes dull and boring. Too much monotony leads to one life feeling too much like the previous one. Too much old stuff accumulating endlessly is just as bad as too many wipes, washing away all your hard work The list goes on and on.

Balance and variety ... keep things interesting by allowing people to progress along multiple paths to success. This game has so much potential, but a lot of it is still untapped, even after years of development.

-I cannot argue with this one. You got me. We agree on something at last.

kundarsa · 2021-06-06 08:24:25

jasonrohrer wrote:

If someone can make a new graph like this:
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 62#p106162
That would be helpful!

I am altering the DB tables currently. Will not have newer data until I finish.

forman · 2021-06-06 13:01:59

I've noticed a bit of unusual western drift recently.

My guess is whatever value the home regions are anchored to has jumped -- possibly twice in that direction.

After months now, what I've noticed is the spawn appears to be anchored to a specific point, with a certain range east and west, and every once and a while an eve walks far in one direction and that anchor moves. At least, that is what it seems like.

kundarsa · 2021-06-07 06:41:58

This is the query

SELECT *, FROM_UNIXTIME(time_stamp) AS epoch
FROM life_birth
WHERE chain = 1
AND log_date >= "2021-05-30"
AND (coords_y = -282
OR coords_y = -80
OR coords_y = 120
OR coords_y = 320)

Last edited by kundarsa (2021-06-07 06:48:00)

Gremlynn · 2021-06-07 14:21:44

Im a little confused on what your chart means. Are those spawn points or where the homelands end up? If i had to guess it seems more like homelands. Considering that 3k shift happened so dramatically and then plateaus. That just screams community manipulation. Forcefully moving all fams then keeping them in the same location for 3 days. 3 days that happen to be the weekend...

jasonrohrer · 2021-06-07 17:24:49

I just checked the log, which now has a few weeks of data using the new "first homeland" instead of "primary homeland" code. Looking good:

After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33762
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -32413
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33082
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33082
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -32398
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -32840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33619
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33619
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33899
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33899
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33899
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33899
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33899
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -33899
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34199
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34199
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34199
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34173
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34213
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34213
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34213
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34213
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34213
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34213
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34213
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34413
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34259
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -34119
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34063
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34063
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34063
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34063
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34260
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34346
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -34510
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34640
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34460
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34460
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34460
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34707
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34707
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34460
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34460
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34460
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34587
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34587
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34587
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34587
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34587
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34587
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34587
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34587
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34587
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -34680
    After discarding outliers, have 5 first homelands with average x position -34784
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -34741
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -34743
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34817
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34817
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34817
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34817
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34817
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34817
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34817
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34622
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34622
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34588
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34735
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34735
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34735
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34735
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34622
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -34622
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34735
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34735
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34735
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34735
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34735
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34735
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34735
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -34735
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35440
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35440
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35440
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35440
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35440
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35440
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35440
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35440
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35440
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35680
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35680
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35680
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35680
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35680
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35680
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35680
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35680
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35680
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35680
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35680
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35680
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35441
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35441
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35441
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35441
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35441
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35441
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35441
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35441
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35441
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35441
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35441
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35800
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35800
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35118
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35800
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35800
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35800
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35801
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35801
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35801
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35801
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -36040
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -36040
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -36040
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -36040
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35805
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35805
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35805
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35805
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35805
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35805
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35805
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35805
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35805
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35990
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35990
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35990
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35990
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35265
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35265
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35265
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35265
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35443
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35443
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35443
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35443
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35445
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35802
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -35802
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35445
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35445
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -35916
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -36259
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -36259
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -36259
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -36259
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36526
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -36657
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -36657
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -36793
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -37220
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -37220
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -37220
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -37220
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -37220
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -37220
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36786
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36786
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36786
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36786
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36786
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36786
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36786
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -36786
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -37200
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -37200
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -37660
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -37660
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -37660
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -37660
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -37200
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -38240
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -38240
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38333
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38493
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38260
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38333
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38333
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38260
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38260
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38360
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38360
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -38508
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -38508
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -38508
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38597
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38597
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38597
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38597
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38597
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38597
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38597
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38597
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38597
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38597
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -38738
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38756
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38891
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38891
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38756
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38756
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38756
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38756
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38756
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38756
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38756
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38891
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -38948
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -38948
    After discarding outliers, have 5 first homelands with average x position -39030
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -38948
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -38948
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -38948
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38877
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38840
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38877
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38877
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38877
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38877
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38877
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38891
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38891
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38891
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -38946
    After discarding outliers, have 4 first homelands with average x position -38946
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38874
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38874
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38874
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38874
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38874
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38874
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38874
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38874
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38874
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38943
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38943
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -38943
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38835
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38835
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38835
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38835
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38835
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38835
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38835
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38835
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38835
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38835
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -38835
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -39760
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -39760
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -39760
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -39760
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -39760
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -39760
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -39760
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -39760
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -39760
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -39760
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -39760
    After discarding outliers, have 1 first homelands with average x position -39760
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -39880
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -39960
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -39960
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40106
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40360
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40340
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40340
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40340
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40340
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40340
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40340
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40340
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40340
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40340
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40340
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40340
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40413
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    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40616
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40662
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40662
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    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -40788
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    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -41013
    After discarding outliers, have 3 first homelands with average x position -41013
    After discarding outliers, have 2 first homelands with average x position -40800

There is a very slow, steady drift westward, which is is what it's supposed to be doing. Walk East to find old stuff, city ruins, etc. Walk West for virgin territory.

And no sudden, huge jumps back East for Eve spawns, which is the buggy behavior we saw before, and that's gone now.

Regarding the rest of this thread..... I think we can acknowledge that the design problems here are hard to solve. Everyone has their own favorite, pet solution. But every solution has it's own weaknesses or holes or problems. Every once it a while, I fall under the spell of someone's pet solution, and become convinced, and then implement it. But it always seems to create other problems.

I've found that multiplayer game design like this... especially in a persistent world.... is just very very hard. The Castle Doctrine had similar classes of design problems that were hard, if not impossible, to solve. You have a world that is there, and players have somewhat limitless impacts on that world over the long haul. Degen strategies tend to crop up pretty easily in such a space....

Add an infinite world, and it gets even worse!

Single player games are much easier to "get right." Inside a Star-filled Sky is pretty close to "perfect," and I have no nagging design regrets. It's an infinite world, but there's only one player, playing against a designed system, instead of with and against other players.

If you look at a game like Rust, which is quite similar to OHOL in many ways (an inspiration for OHOL), you can see that they struggled with lots of hard design problems over many years. They kept trying new solutions, one after another. It wasn't the game improving, or getting bigger... it was constant changes to the fundamentals. How do players unlock new tech? How do buildings work? Ownership? Property rights? Resource spawns? Wealth accumulation? etc.

Rust didn't have an infinite world, but they still faced the accumulation of player-built structures and loot. I'm pretty sure they STILL solve that problem with regularly scheduled wipes (weekly, monthly, etc.).... which never felt like a satisfying solution. They tried decay and a bunch of other things along the way..... but that still wouldn't stop a dedicated group of players from building up a massive fortress and keeping it forever...

When I set out to make OHOL, I kinda knew it wasn't going to be perfect. It was always meant to be a messy, "kitchen sink" type game.

And it won't ever be perfect. There are just too many variables, pulling in too many different directions.

Do I really want to give up an infinite world? No.

In the end, it's really about how OHOL feels, and an infinite world is part of that feeling.... the feeling that you're in an isolated village, but somewhere out there, there are other people in another village.... or that there are lost, abandoned villages out there. How many? Who knows? And where does this road lead? And who made it? Holy crap, this road is long!

I've spent a lot of time trying to sculpt OHOL into a better game for people who are going to play 100s or 1000s of hours. Like, where is the challenge after you've mastered the tech tree? How will you not get bored?

But I've got to be careful not to take away the magical feeling in the process.

And that magical feeling is mostly felt---at least most intensely---by new players.

It's really hard for the veterans to see the game through that lens.

Compared to many of you, I myself am just a "new player." My main game account only has 132 hours logged on the live servers.

When I log in for a life, I can still feel some of that wonder and magic.... being born into a situation, somewhere in an infinite world, and trying to figure out what needs to be done, and how I can do it, before my brief life is over.

So, despite what the veterans might say, I don't think that the game is spoiled or ruined or anything like that.

But it's definitely not perfect.

Gremlynn · 2021-06-07 17:55:54

Please consider restricting the map. Despite the total size, banding puts a soft boundary on things. With the shuffle west there becomes a limit to reasonable travel east. So even with the current structure we are all stuck in a slender rectangle always moving west. It creates a sense of monotony. Moving, rebuilding, moving rebuilding. All the while resources from the east are shuffled west. So you see eve towns with lots of advanced tech in the first few generations. There is a loss to the natural tech progression.

Though i dont think the rift was perfect there was a far more dynamic element to progression. Resets were not just a matter of time or distance but by the communities effort to either maintain or destroy the world. The main issue with the rift was its size. It was too small, too easy to map in your head, and too easy to navigate as a whole. The size also greatly limited the lifespan of the rift. I think its possible to have all the elements you're looking for in your world, and more, in a limited map.

Areas would become so barren it would become so dangerous to enter them again, dead zones that would add an interesting dynamic to the map. They would likely house ancient ruins of once powerhouse cities that were lost to overconsumption. People would make hidden outposts and secret gardens. Giant monuments or caches of stolen good. Things we saw often in the rift, even with them only lasting a few days, but hardly anymore.

Size is the question. I think there is a middle ground between limitless and limited that has yet to be explored to its fullest. Good luck with the move. Think about it.

Dodge · 2021-06-07 18:49:16

jasonrohrer wrote:

In the end, it's really about how OHOL feels, and an infinite world is part of that feeling.... the feeling that you're in an isolated village, but somewhere out there, there are other people in another village.... or that there are lost, abandoned villages out there. How many? Who knows? And where does this road lead? And who made it? Holy crap, this road is long!

The feeling of exploring the unknown, apparently the single most important feeling...

The earth is not infinite yet that feeling is still present with the infinity of the universe being comparable with the infinity of ohol's map

It's really a shame to let that one aspect of the game be the single most important one and replace everything else that this game could potentially be...

Imagine if our ancestors where doomed to continually travel to the west trough perpetually dying and reviving while losing everything they made and never reaching a point beyond the aspect of civilisation building and never making something out of it eventually.

Use the ressources, build some stuff, be forced to move to a greener pasture, repeat, the game in a nutshell.

That's pretty much how it feels like for a lot of veteran players

Yeah it's cool that you can travel in the opposite direction and loot some dead towns but if it's only about the feeling of exploring the unknown you could have the same by having persistent planets and being able to explore them with space travel.

jasonrohrer wrote:

And that magical feeling is mostly felt---at least most intensely---by new players.

It's really hard for the veterans to see the game through that lens.

Compared to many of you, I myself am just a "new player." My main game account only has 132 hours logged on the live servers.

A game designed for new players...

Maybe with more hours played you would have another point of view

jasonrohrer wrote:

Do I really want to give up an infinite world? No.

By doing so you also give up on many other aspects of the game, do you really think there will more advanced forms of social interactions and challenges between civilisations like when your village is running out of ressources but your neighbours still have plenty of it and you have to figure out one way or another to make it work?

Do you really think this can happen in a never ending cycle of dying and respawning in infinity?

The answer is clearly no, proven by the current state of the game, adding any ammount of artificial mechanics will not change that.

That point was almost reached in the rift but failed for multiple reasons, like the ridiculously small size and claustrophobic feeling while seeing fresh new land beyond.

jasonrohrer wrote:

When I log in for a life, I can still feel some of that wonder and magic.... being born into a situation, somewhere in an infinite world, and trying to figure out what needs to be done, and how I can do it, before my brief life is over.
But I've got to be careful not to take away the magical feeling in the process.

Play a few more hours and that magic will slowly fade away leaving you with a game that doesn't offer much more than that.

Maybe that's the solution to every single issues that this game has, the dev playing his own game...

jasonrohrer wrote:

I've spent a lot of time trying to sculpt OHOL into a better game for people who are going to play 100s or 1000s of hours. Like, where is the challenge after you've mastered the tech tree? How will you not get bored?

It's clearly not made for long term players unless you enjoy repetitive patterns and building the same thing over again but not doing much else out of what you make in the end...

If it's only about having that feeling of exploring the unknown or about the mystery of not knowing if there's signs of life out there, there could be persistent planets and space travel, a lot of different possibilities, traveling between servers, endless possibilites even, but this current form of infinity that the game has is probably the least interesting one and prevents the game from having more depth and be much more interesting that it currently is.

Last edited by Dodge (2021-06-07 19:05:12)

Gremlynn · 2021-06-07 20:50:36

Im all for the exploring the unknown. But almost all map diversity was removed when biome banding was added. It used to be a challenge and a skill to find a good spot to settle. Finding that perfect balance of resources and biome diversity was hard but when you did, it was a unique feeling. Like finding the promised land or the garden of eden. This.. does not exist anymore.

Finding a location is basically fail proof. There is no nuance. Its honestly awful. The map used to feel like this dynamic canvas of different biomes, ever swirling, and there was something unique around ever corner. Especially when biomes were truly random(snow next to jungle etc).

At any rate. The current map is infinite sure. But its basically like eating the same exact meal every day for eternity. Things are too organized and aligned. It feels artificial.

forman · 2021-06-07 23:37:00

I still think making some kind of in game (or portable) interface to define automated behavior for either robots or drone babies would open so many possibilities (mainly for the veteran players)

It would probably be rough at first but one day we could actually see mega cities and complex emergent gameplay like wars and diplomacy

DestinyCall · 2021-06-08 06:07:40

The future of OHOL ... Drone Wars?

forman · 2021-06-08 13:37:20

Even if we could create an interface which would be difficult, getting it to be useful will be harder.

I would expect on and off experimentation from vet players and modders with mostly limited use cases.

But theoretically, yes.

Instead of just towns of human players you could have multiple settlements contributing to a greater region of players.

But none of the existing gameplay would be lost either, and honestly, a better place for newer players to work in anyhow.

Spoonwood · 2021-06-08 15:42:18

jasonrohrer wrote:

Regarding the rest of this thread..... I think we can acknowledge that the design problems here are hard to solve. Everyone has their own favorite, pet solution. But every solution has it's own weaknesses or holes or problems. Every once it a while, I fall under the spell of someone's pet solution, and become convinced, and then implement it. But it always seems to create other problems.

Paradoxal_1 above said the following:

Paradoxal_1 wrote:

Keep in mind, that it takes less than 24 hours to reach the top of the tech tree currently. And that rapid tech progression is critical due to the current well mechanics. You will run out of water and die if you don't push straight through to oil tech rapidly. There's no ability to linger in earlier stages, because normal water usage will exhaust early wells quite rapidly.

So no, not all of those design problems are hard to solve. I mean at the very least in the water system before the spring changes, rapidly making more advanced water technology sources wasn't as needed. And changing how much water is in wells or pumps doesn't sound difficult.

DestinyCall also said as the first response to your post:

DestinyCall wrote:

Would it be possible to look at the oil situation next? The distances are getting problematic. Maybe tweak or remove oil tap-out?

The problem of not having enough oil locally is not difficult to solve, since removing oil tapout is not difficult to do. And when tarry spots were found usually within 100 tiles of a village, there were *not* any downsides. The continuing system of oil tapout on the other hand has plenty of downsides, including weaker ability to scale to higher population sizes.

Also, the design problem of progression, as I think Gremlynn pointed out, isn't difficult to solve. Have villages isolated. People could still visit other villages once planes existed. So, basically between the time when the plane came into existence and the Rift existed already had a satisfying solution.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I've spent a lot of time trying to sculpt OHOL into a better game for people who are going to play 100s or 1000s of hours. Like, where is the challenge after you've mastered the tech tree? How will you not get bored?

No, you didn't make that your focus, or you've done a poor job. You would have needed to consistently encourage more possibilities for constructive players if you had made that your focus. Experienced players need more stimuli, not more restrictions which encourage fewer possibilities. For example, you decreased diversity of livable areas with the temperature overhaul, the topographic map system, and later farming changes making it so that players couldn't farm in certain areas. Decreasing diversity of livable areas made the game more monotonus and boring, and the same for the can't farm in jungle type changes. There's a lot less to do in going to other places and getting sulfur from that area or from people than living in a desert one life and then living in a jungle another life. Why? Because going and getting resources is more similar than having different temperature/environmental challenges.

The change from ponds into wells to springs also limited possibilities, since using multiple wells for water became less viable, and even less viable after well tapout. That decreased the amount of viable play choices for players and thus decreased the number of possible paths that they could viably pursue, putting them in more similar situations.

The change in the iron mechanics also decreased possible viable paths. Under the system that 2HOL still uses, once one has mining technology, one can either go out and tap mines for iron. Or one can just look for it on the ground. Thus, there are two possibilities. In the OHOL system, there's no possibility of going out and looking for iron on the ground. The current system in OHOL leaves basically one option (or very long distance travel). That makes things less interesting for players iron wise in OHOL than in 2HOL as things stand.

The game would also likely need a large number of modes to remain interesting for players long term. It doesn't have that.

Players who play a long time in games also often will need to think up their own challenges. Or suggestions about how to make up their own challenges. Or guidance on challenges to pursue. This game doesn't do a good job of suggesting that players make up their own challenges. Nor does it have any sort of achievements list to suggest challenges for otherwise bored players.

JonySky · 2021-06-08 16:07:43

jasonrohrer wrote:

There is a very slow, .....

Nice words that say nothing ... and arguments contradictory to the game development process

If this is a game for newbies, and the opinion of the veterans doesn't matter too much, ... why isn't there a better tutorial that explains all the mechanics for new players? because the game depends on veterans to create engines or extract the oil?
Why are there recipes so complex that only a veteran can make?
Why have you created such complex mechanics that only a veteran who has read all your update reports can understand?
Why do we have the genetic scoring system that rewards players who play the longest and "best"?

jasonrohrer wrote:

When I set out to make OHOL, I kinda knew it wasn't going to be perfect. It was always meant to be a messy, "kitchen sink" type game.

And all this is also explained in the trailer or the description of the game when it sells it? please don't treat us like we're fools

And now ... where do you want to go with OHOL Mr. Jason?
Are we going to keep getting messy updates?

jasonrohrer wrote:

So, despite what the veterans might say, I don't think that the game is spoiled or ruined or anything like that.

This is not said by the veterans, it is said by the numbers of players

I think you should play your game a little more and you will realize that (for example) the idea of trade is a fantasy ... or you will see that the language does not have a logical mechanics, (it cannot be learned in a lifetime, like in real life) or you will see that the mechanics of the homeland only manages to turn an infinite map into a rift (curious, because precisely you insist on having an infinite map ... but you cannot leave your homeland)

jasonrohrer wrote:

Do I really want to give up an infinite world? No.

It should be consistent with your words ...
and you should understand that your player base does not mind if you need 1, 2 or 3 months to develop a new mechanic, well developed, well implemented, and well worked.

but don't confuse your players with contradictory arguments

Last edited by JonySky (2021-06-08 20:45:10)

Gremlynn · 2021-06-08 16:26:06

To chime in on the iron and water notes, and honestly oil as well. The dominance of lay lines also was quite damaging to diversity. Iron veins, water(w/ pond system), and oil used to be quite random. Meaning some areas of the map could be extremely resource rich while others were quite barren. The change to have everything on lay lines and equally distanced removed a lot of that diversity. It was much more exciting to have it random. Especially when the map was truly random. The possibility of having a tarry spot a few tiles away from a well was there. That would make for a unique town and experience while playing. A town could be positioned next to a vast badland with tons of iron to give them a jump start and dominance. A lot of these systems have removed the diversity of experiences in this game. Sure they make things easier on us, but they do that by making things more predictable.

Spoonwood · 2021-06-08 18:00:57

jasonrohrer wrote:

I've spent a lot of time trying to sculpt OHOL into a better game for people who are going to play 100s or 1000s of hours. Like, where is the challenge after you've mastered the tech tree? How will you not get bored?

Also, the stand on object change is another good example of how you did the exact opposite of trying to get the game better for people who would play a long time. When players could stand on an object and not get killed by animals that way, they had more options. Thus, if they wanted to stand on an object to avoid animals killing them, they could. And I point out that anyone could easily and sometimes did *not* stand on objects when they could stand on an object to avoid a deadly animal killing them. Thus, players could do things in different ways. A player doing things in different ways means that they spend more time playing. Now they can only avoid deadly animals killing them by movement or getting healed. That's fewer paths to stay alive, and thus players don't need to spend as much time to explore all aspects of the game.

It's boring that animals kill you whenever in comparison to them sometimes not killing you because you stood on an object.

Tane · 2021-06-14 01:53:21

jasonrohrer wrote:

But I've got to be careful not to take away the magical feeling in the process.
And that magical feeling is mostly felt---at least most intensely---by new players.

It's really hard for the veterans to see the game through that lens.

Compared to many of you, I myself am just a "new player." My main game account only has 132 hours logged on the live servers.
When I log in for a life, I can still feel some of that wonder and magic.... being born into a situation, somewhere in an infinite world, and trying to figure out what needs to be done, and how I can do it, before my brief life is over.
So, despite what the veterans might say, I don't think that the game is spoiled or ruined or anything like that.
But it's definitely not perfect.

No, the magic hasn't been kept.
My daughter used to love playing, as did I. She tried to play on a mutual friends account when we were visiting them (I recommended the game to them) and couldn't even survive a single entire lifetime because of how convoluted the systems have gotten, just with eating alone. After some reflection, you probably don't understand this since you already KNOW the system instead of having to wiki for 5 hours just to make the game playable. We want a game, not a second or third job or research project. Its not like we can actually teach other players now since just surviving is now 80% of the game instead of creating, teaching and building.
Plus, the lack of new players show very well that magic was lost long ago. So do these dead forums. Well gone are the days where there were so many players new servers needed to be added. No one is gushing to their mate about this wonderful new game they found anymore. They buy it, find it so hard to get into that they drop it after a few lives leaving the player base the same numbers. The two times I heard it brought up in conversation in the last year it was the exact same sentiment. "Yeah, it USED to be good. Don't buy it though, not worth it now." I haven't heard of a new player outside reddit talking about it in over a year. Even then that's usually to suggest yet another grind or griefing complaint or suggestion. I find it strange that 2HOL has more of a regular playerbase than the original game, which in itself SHOULD be a giant red flag.
Just using the reviews isn't a very good gauge since its usually only either the REALLY pissed off players who would complain or the far more likely vets who keep trying to find workarounds for the updates. Most who don't like the game play it a bit, find it too hard to play and drop it forever into the greyed out steam box, never to be played again without ever even bothering to click the reviews.

There's a reason I stopped playing this game years ago, the complaints have been in the same track since 2018 and the designer ignores them, will literally tell the ONLY few people left in the game's forum that everyone's experiences are invalid and basically aren't real and the game we can all see the issues with is fine while we're STILL waiting for the updates which were promised in its trailer to make progression possible and interesting.
It's rather sad, since I came back to see if the game had been improved only to find even less players since the race update and the grind only increased for who knows what reason.
What's even sadder about that is those new players will get less and less over the months and years, meaning less money for Jason to work on fixing the game. Which in turn has already brought on the loss of regular players (which the forums have made clear was happening) which will eventually kill the game. After all, if he really wanted to know how vet players don't get bored, he could've listened to the forums a few years back. Or actually gone into the game and watch all the silly and stupid stuff we all did, like the cults, pre-family families, evil aunts and godsent uncles to find out.
I loved the idea of legacy and teaching in a multiplayer survival game, but gotta say, I've become extremely disappointed in the result. After years, I feel like I was mislead by the trailer, the promises of fixes and updates after buying the product and the portrayed ideas which got me to shell out the cash. Like most of the players were saying a few years ago, Jason needed help THEN if he wanted to really expand the game to what he wanted. By now its too late I think.
In all honesty, I don't think I'll be buying another game with Rohrer in the head dev team names again or recommending them after how this has turned out.

Gremlynn · 2021-06-14 02:04:53

https://youtu.be/LEeBWBLujEA

pein · 2021-06-27 20:21:42

oh man, the spawn system gets worst and worst, and more generic, in combination with the races it was the main issue i had

some facts:
-bell runs can be fun, but there is a distance limit where is possible, if its not, its a big waste of time
-that distance is around 20 minutes, even so i question if its worth exploring instead of just getting reborn
-you need to have a decent chance of finding someone alive, or at least the town shouldnt be decaying
-the map is too boring, exploration is not fun at all
-most players dont go out of town, not more than 50 tiles, newbies die if they go 100 tiles away

the only time i had fun exploring when i mapped out the game and towns were 600-1000 away and the graves shown a location closeby. it wasnt easy and wasnt broken, still got fixed for no reason. some coordinates were some starved rabbit hunters so the town was 150-200 tiles away from them.

So there are way too many mechanics of spawn but it only make things worst, simplification is the key.
Each city could have its own map, own borders. 100x100 or so. in rift didnt work to be trapped, but a single family usually had only 50x050 size.
Each city could be a dot in a minimap and have different rules from normal map.
Version A: the city is just a 5x5 circle on the map, when you click on it, you enter it.
Version B: the city has normal size but cut off from the world, except one entrance/exit or more.
This would allow cities to be generated separately, have enough space but still be close to others. The outside map could have different proportions and faster travel so you dont need 80 minutes of your 60-14 to find a town.
Maps could be 'saved' each player could go back once if they want or reject a map. Only players that born there could go back. If enough people choose to let a map die out, that part of the map would reset and new eves could take over. Close but still far from others.

The issue is that there are no technological levels, no scope of advancing, things just get worse. You ruin a part of the map and go further, ruin that too and go further. There are debuffs for old families and they can abuse new map parts to gain advantages.
Each map could be a puzzle needing to be solved instead of a territory to exploit and dump.
Other players wouldnt be forced to enter a dump. Honestly the new grids made the game even more generic. Back before at least there were 2-3 mines, sometimes 8-9, multiple wells. The rest of resources are so useless not even worth mentioning.
A dense forest could be a thing, just as a clay mine.

And to keep the excitement of the eves, the map would be infinite until they choose to settle, when they choose a final spot, the map would be cropped around it so they could still re-center the map and keep the good parts. It shouldnt take 30 minutes to find a spot, so that part could be simplified too. Like a minimap with resource icons, maybe a click a zone to explore deeper, then based on partial information choose 1 of 9 squares and the starting map will be that. This would give unique choices without all the time consuming hassle. Most eve camps fail and those lost resources usually cant be replaced, and the map is ruined already.

And this would allow new mechanics later on. If a city is a city, a unit, not just a bunch of things in a group, then people could have excess and needs, , they could have limitations that they need to solve. A way out of the city, expanding borders by unlocking them. Official transport lines via train, paying for tickets or taking a horse to go out. And if starting spots would be average, new map spots could require a caravan and could give crazy resources and harder survivability. A goal to work towards always.

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2021-05-28 23:20:40

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#27 2021-05-28 23:58:22

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#28 2021-05-29 00:21:50

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#29 2021-05-29 01:11:57

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#30 2021-06-06 08:24:25

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#31 2021-06-06 13:01:59

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#32 2021-06-07 06:41:58

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#33 2021-06-07 14:21:44

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#34 2021-06-07 17:24:49

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#35 2021-06-07 17:55:54

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#36 2021-06-07 18:49:16

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#37 2021-06-07 20:50:36

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#38 2021-06-07 23:37:00

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#39 2021-06-08 06:07:40

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#40 2021-06-08 13:37:20

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#41 2021-06-08 15:42:18

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#42 2021-06-08 16:07:43

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#43 2021-06-08 16:26:06

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#44 2021-06-08 18:00:57

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#45 2021-06-14 01:53:21

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#46 2021-06-14 02:04:53

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

#47 2021-06-27 20:21:42

Re: Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

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