Why Everything Runs Out is Boring

NoTruePunk · 2020-12-03 23:46:51

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
Have you played this week or watched streams? Also, you lose out on an estimated 33 buckets of water by skipping a deep well. I don't see any reason to lose that much water which doesn't require kerosene or rubber.
I haven't played this week, I'll play this game again after the update.
Yeah, it's a bad feeling to lose 33 buckets of water from deep well, but there is plenty of new resources and water around in the new place.
Moving to a new place and surviving there is probably the hardest thing in this game, because of how little value foods give in later generations - that's why you would want to make the process as much easier as possible. Having super easy access to water (diesel pump) makes it easier and may save your family. Unless you have tons of tires prepared for newcomen pump, skipping deep well is a good choice in my opinion.

It's kinda sad that kero takes less work to make than tires now. Tires are renewable, and a dedicated person who knows what they're doing can churn out a lot of tires, but kero scales so much better that nothing can really compare. If an early village somehow gets a stockpile of kerosene then newcomen should be skipped, but only if a lot of oil is on hand and in a protected gate.

Eve Troll · 2020-12-04 00:40:10

Yea i wouldnt say diesel is a super easy way to get water. Especially compared to deep well. When moving a family its better to go ahead of the family, scout out the spot, and built up the area before they move in. Much like pein has done in the past. Its far easier to build up a solid town without the demand of an entire family.

Going back to oil being easy. It sure is later in game, but it does require a lot of prep and a lot of resources. The tanks alone are 24 iron, plus a blade, and god knows how many pipes. The first time you drill its insanely expensive with little reward. So in a way oil kind of pays itself forward in later runs. Its especially important that gingers remain rich with it and rich in iron. All it takes is one over generous family member and its back to ground zero.

Last edited by Eve Troll (2020-12-04 00:41:08)

Spoonwood · 2020-12-05 09:15:15

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Yeah, take tons of food with you with trucks. Take many hoe heads so people can make farms fast. Take engines and kerosene, so you can skip deep well and newcomen well, but you will have constant easy access to water. Take many plates and bowls, so people can start cooking right away.
Yeah, it wouldn't be that hard with a good preparation. The mistake people do is that they want to move when they are out of kero and water, and that is way too late.

I think it's easy for many, if not almost all, players to miss babies popping out while driving a truck. If you're going to try something like that, I highly recommend that one stay outside of one's home band.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-12-05 09:15:35)

NoTruePunk · 2020-12-05 14:50:25

Trouble is there's no good way to make cohesive decisions as a group. You can take the family out west for new resources, but there's going to be detractors that stay behind or resettle back east and split the family, creating a fertility problem.

Eve Troll wrote:

Yea i wouldnt say diesel is a super easy way to get water. Especially compared to deep well. When moving a family its better to go ahead of the family, scout out the spot, and built up the area before they move in. Much like pein has done in the past. Its far easier to build up a solid town without the demand of an entire family.
Going back to oil being easy. It sure is later in game, but it does require a lot of prep and a lot of resources. The tanks alone are 24 iron, plus a blade, and god knows how many pipes. The first time you drill its insanely expensive with little reward. So in a way oil kind of pays itself forward in later runs. Its especially important that gingers remain rich with it and rich in iron. All it takes is one over generous family member and its back to ground zero.

The newcomen pump makes on average 123 buckets of water... That's 5.1 tanks of kero worth of water. It's actually a ton, so I'm going to go ahead and retract my previous claim that it's OK to skip newcomen. It does take an enormous amount of tires though, 10 rubber dough buckets worth. If your family is moving and you have a massive stockpile of kero it may be OK just to get the cisterns filled quickly, but it's really a waste.

https://onetech.info/2234-Wet-Newcomen-Pump

Coconut Fruit · 2020-12-05 15:46:40

NoTruePunk wrote:

It does take an enormous amount of tires though, 10 rubber dough buckets worth. If your family is moving and you have a massive stockpile of kero it may be OK just to get the cisterns filled quickly, but it's really a waste.

Yeah, after all I think preparing 10 buckets of rubber dough before moving would be better idea than skipping deep well and newcomen pump.

Spoonwood wrote:

I think it's easy for many, if not almost all, players to miss babies popping out while driving a truck. If you're going to try something like that, I highly recommend that one stay outside of one's home band.

Yeah, that make sense.

pein · 2020-12-06 17:44:13

Oxygen not Included did it right, first, you had only a normal base than dangerous territories, like slime and lava, sure it's a mineshaft so they could simulate oxygen. Butt after people complained about the stuff running out, they changed the model, now you can plant trees for ethanol, use salt and rust, you got different techs to do stuff differently, for the same result, and it's not easy, you got to focus on things you can do, it still runs out but can be recycled, and that's how real lif works too, ofc if too many people live in the same area, it runs out, but continuous lands should provide enough resources so cities emerge.

Right now OHOL doesn't have cities, it's a collection of things, and you don't even need to collect stuff, you move around and reinvent the wheel.
I remember when Jason wanted to change wells, and I told him water deposits should exist, and buckets should limit tech levels, and it worked, people doing better wells, bucket limited the tech for cows and painting so it was a good change.
That's what we need, tech gates, stuff that replaces previous outdated tech. Stations that save work when items are delivered. I think the way everything is connected to hunger only, is bad, so tool slots. It could be connected to energy. And then players would matter in the equation, the more work you do, the less you need to struggle. The map could be more compact, trees closer but cutting and using them would be more time.
Items, machines should be more expensive but provide more functions, like a sawmill would be needed to cut boards, so what you do? do it with a saw, rest and continue or ask help or build a sawmill.

The map is nice, it's auto-generated, but it lacks what good maps have, spots that can make into a city and function over time. One way to fix itt would be an upkeep based city model, where higher functions are interconnected, you could always get resources, but you need more and more to sink into upgrading machines and elements, so there is always work, things to do, workers are needed and resources are not the main factor. Right now having 20 dumb people doesn't matter if you got 2 good ones, they do the tech and that's it, in some case people use up all water or ropes and it's hard, but not impossible. But imagine this: you got water regenerating and it's enough for certain stuff but you can't do higher-level machine work until you fix it, and how you fix it? Getting wood/iron to upgrade water generation.

Surviving Mars had a nice system, and it re-evaluated resource values, first, you had evaporators to collect some water, then you had to dig for a basin, which ran out after a while, then dig deeper when you got the tech and finally upgrade your machines enough to get a better water/power ratio from the evaporators. Also digging for concrete left behind rocks, which are just garbage at first but with the right tech, you can turn it to concrete and actually faster than mining at the right tech level.

So for OHOL it could be more ways to get water, like bottle trees, collect rain, re-filter used water, etc. The main problem to solve would be having enough workers in one area, and ignoring others. So whatever jobs you do, you make a profit but some give more. Right now if you use resources in a bad way, it won't come back anymore, and you might ruin others efforts. Planting berries? other foods use less water. This would be solved with regenerating resources, you still got to wait for 15 min or upgrade water output.

Also an energy system would be good, and machines. Something making it worth sticking with a place and fixing it instead of moving far away. Some items could be essential but depend on machines. Like clothes or tools.
Also liked the system in SM and Planetbase, you don't replace things, you got universal repair kits that you use for anything. So a hoe could be repaired or an axe, no need to re-do it, but you got to build the infrastructure to support repair kits.

Right now the game is moving between tech levels -1 0 1 2. You got towns that have no resources (thanks for engine removal), barely starting ones, ones with basic stuff, and ones with a few advanced things like animals and clothing making. It should be 0-1-2-3-4.... You should never have towns that produce nothing, any activity should provide resources for like 4 people. And it should always be a higher-tech level for anything.

Jason just made grids to have equal resources, you got fixed water, iron, so it does not really matter to have a good location for cities, it does not matter how many workers you got, actually, more is worse than a few. Players just consume, and not always produce, and they can't, there is no activity where time and work equals resources, only resources equal resources, you can spend collecting 36 adobe in life and you build a house in 2 minutes or less. You remove food and water and iron all the time and eventually all gone. I would prefer a way to convert resources then convert back. ONI had the toilet systems which is kinda funny, but it kinda covers water needs.

OHOL could have a free tier of resources, that can make higher tier ones, like dirty water+coals(ashes from fire) would make some clean water, simple clothes made out of leaves and plants, wood from collecting some fallen branches. Iron from scraps that appear from time to time.
Main resources would have a cap and lose when nobody collects it, so activity and exploring would be rewarded, progress would be halted but not completely stopped. Starving would be still possible.

Spoonwood · 2020-12-06 20:00:27

pein wrote:

Planting berries? other foods use less water.

I'm not so sure on this exactly pein. I think it depends on the pip value of the foods compared. 1 pip berries use less water than 1 pip carrots, since carrots need seeding, and there's only 5 carrots per plot, while there exist 7 berries per domestic plot. Though, of course, carrots take less time. And carrot pies use up less water than berry pies (1 carrot vs. 6 berries). So, berries use less water than carrots for pies I think always. Corn also uses more water than berries. But, corn has more potential value than many foods, since skim and whole milk are 10 meals, possibly more. Popcorn also, and other cooked foods like pork tacos if it's worth the time to make those. Berries also use up less water than peppers. I don't know how chips with salsa compares to berry pie.

And again, how things compare here might change depending on generation number/actual pip value of the foods.

As you know, munching the same food repeatedly takes up more water than yumming/eating different foods as much as possible... I just want to keep that in mind.

Caprys · 2020-12-07 21:59:34

Spoonwood wrote:

pein wrote:
Planting berries? other foods use less water.
I'm not so sure on this exactly pein. I think it depends on the pip value of the foods compared. 1 pip berries use less water than 1 pip carrots, since carrots need seeding, and there's only 5 carrots per plot, while there exist 7 berries per domestic plot. Though, of course, carrots take less time. And carrot pies use up less water than berry pies (1 carrot vs. 6 berries). So, berries use less water than carrots for pies I think always. Corn also uses more water than berries. But, corn has more potential value than many foods, since skim and whole milk are 10 meals, possibly more. Popcorn also, and other cooked foods like pork tacos if it's worth the time to make those. Berries also use up less water than peppers. I don't know how chips with salsa compares to berry pie.
And again, how things compare here might change depending on generation number/actual pip value of the foods.
As you know, munching the same food repeatedly takes up more water than yumming/eating different foods as much as possible... I just want to keep that in mind.

A full carrot row gives two extra free seeds. Seven seeds in total.

pein · 2020-12-11 09:52:49

Spoonwood wrote:

pein wrote:
Planting berries? other foods use less water.
I'm not so sure on this exactly pein. I think it depends on the pip value of the foods compared. 1 pip berries use less water than 1 pip carrots, since carrots need seeding, and there's only 5 carrots per plot, while there exist 7 berries per domestic plot. Though, of course, carrots take less time. And carrot pies use up less water than berry pies (1 carrot vs. 6 berries). So, berries use less water than carrots for pies I think always. Corn also uses more water than berries. But, corn has more potential value than many foods, since skim and whole milk are 10 meals, possibly more. Popcorn also, and other cooked foods like pork tacos if it's worth the time to make those. Berries also use up less water than peppers. I don't know how chips with salsa compare to berry pie.
And again, how things compare here might change depending on the generation number/actual pip value of the foods.
As you know, munching the same food repeatedly takes up more water than yumming/eating different foods as much as possible... I just want to keep that in mind.

understand it right, pip per water counts, the whole yum was my idea and new corn values too so I'm aware of values
it's fine to have variety and all, but a fixed water amount means it takes away from other things, so essentially a harmful activity if there is an income or a way to retrieve, it's just low effectiveness, won't harm others but their efforts are misplaced, heck, even overproduction hurts, while making compost was kind of best way to help long term, making too much makes water usage more important as each stack of soil will need water to go along with it, so too much is esentially using up your fixed amount of water and ties down your options
the first case, the person doing it will not covert his time to value, so his life has no value, not even breaking even, his actions are harmful and others are rightfully pissed at him
while resources are less valuable, time and activity will become more of a value, meaning you can't be fully useless if you got 30 water per hour and 15 storage, then the focus is on workforce and not overall usage effectivity, you would lose water for not emptying the storage
this way it's more acceptable that some people don't know any better
if it's fixed, there is no reason not to do your most effective foods

as for realism, it makes no sense
it should be a curve where hitting the minimum amount of workers is important, then above that, you could have problems if you can't organize
right now you want the lowest possible highly educated workers so your effectiveness is higher and upkeep is lower
so a free tier of resources is needed and the possibility of creating value out of nothing but time
for example, a basic level of clothing that is made of leaves and plants should be possible, to differentiate lazy people and low tech
or making a tea out of rainwater and leaves would give a small boost of heat and calories, that would make initiation, action and the ability to scout your surroundings an okay skill to have, sure, it shouldn't be a way to improve or even survive, but a way to maintain and slow down the upkeep damage

Jason says is realistic that everything runs out, but it's not. cities formed along rivers, Europe has a long history and civilization can be tracked better, the Danube river has 7 capitals on it, some countries even tried connecting it to their own capital
there are suitable places to live or can be forced to be suitable, like Dubai, which has no water on its own
It should be a reason why something is a good place to live and others bad. If any place is just as good to make things, nothing worth anything
So tech should be tied to location. You could only create certain tech in certain places, and not others, you could not move all the things that make a city a city, you could only get limited rewards. Life find a way, just watched some videos in Pakistan and they barely got any water but they know the usage of plants and they can survive there.

What I say is cities should be something that produce more resources over time, not just a collection of items that some people agreed upon
Jason loves the concept of making up concepts, money, trade and all, but players got a limited time, they can't waste it for leadership, and dumb things that won't stand a chance to be respected and remembered trough generations, it must be defined by the game
SO things should be grouped and organized by the game and players have a set of settings to choose from, and the game would provide ways to keep that remembered and respected

The map can be auto-generated but the places should have more uniqueness, value, like zones with central objects that generate resources that won't run out, just maybe won't be optimal to stay there forever. A concept of relative value, not an absolute one.
Right now there is X resources, like 50 clay that is 50 plates, in the great scheme of things, it doesn't matter how long it takes or how many people do it, it will be 50 plates, not 10 per hour for 5 hours, not 5 per hour for infinity, it's 50, it can be done in 4 runs or in 10, it's still 50.
The players seem to be observers, not a variable that can change things. It should be an environment that needs constant input to provide output, not a fixed input and fixed output.

Everything else is fine, food types and values can change but your main issue should be not 'how I use it' but 'how I organize' or 'how I will have enough workers' or 'what I focus on'. Because all those questions have the same answer right now. Collect, use, do by yourself. Food is just your upkeep, it's important, but it's not hard to do. But eventually, with fixed resources, your upkeep will be the same as your output, and all die forever. While with a dynamic input, you would need huge mismanagement to die. Would be more fun to change focus based on needs.

So that means we need more 'needs', like a stamina bar, so working is limited but universal, not like tools were, unlimited but your focus is limited. This would make teamwork better. Team jobs that can only be done in pairs. Job timers of 10-30 seconds. So it's not about time but more of manning the equipment. Upgrading resources using other resources, sinking more and more of it but having some improvement over time. Value could only stagnate or go up, not a 0 sum game.

Hailerm · 2020-12-11 14:15:55

Thats the problem dude ... this game is not like the real life the only thing close to real life in this game is the people in this game we have have all the types of people u can imagine but apart of that not much more BECAUSE IS A GAME and remember all will finish one day ALL..

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#26 2020-12-03 23:46:51

Re: Why Everything Runs Out is Boring

#27 2020-12-04 00:40:10

Re: Why Everything Runs Out is Boring

#28 2020-12-05 09:15:15

Re: Why Everything Runs Out is Boring

#29 2020-12-05 14:50:25

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#30 2020-12-05 15:46:40

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#31 2020-12-06 17:44:13

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#32 2020-12-06 20:00:27

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#33 2020-12-07 21:59:34

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#34 2020-12-11 09:52:49

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