Diesel or newcomen well?

NoTruePunk · 2020-10-09 10:51:34

Which is better? Newcomen takes charcoal, which is probably more efficient in the long run compared to kerosene.

Last edited by NoTruePunk (2020-10-09 10:53:42)

Caprys · 2020-10-09 12:15:57

Newcomen is better, but eventually it will go broke and then you'll have to upgrade to an engine. I think if you have a newcomen and kerosene the best is to make a kerosene newcomen pump (will brake down too eventually). If I'm not wrong then it gives eight buckets of water.

wondible · 2020-10-09 13:18:16

If you go straight to diesel, you forego all the possible non-kerosine water from the newcomen well.

If you use newcomen kerosine, you get more per kerosine, but also forego all the water from the charcoal newcomen; it's basically a wash.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-09 13:29:54

Caprys wrote:

I think if you have a newcomen and kerosene the best is to make a kerosene newcomen pump (will brake down too eventually). If I'm not wrong then it gives eight buckets of water.

It's a greater volume of water quicker. But, if you use the charcoal pump only, you'll spend less kerosene on water.

Coconut Fruit · 2020-10-09 19:07:21

Spoonwood wrote:

Caprys wrote:
I think if you have a newcomen and kerosene the best is to make a kerosene newcomen pump (will brake down too eventually). If I'm not wrong then it gives eight buckets of water.
It's a greater volume of water quicker. But, if you use the charcoal pump only, you'll spend less kerosene on water.

You would spend that kerosene on diesel pump anyways. Using kero on newcomen pump gives you 4 more buckets of water (8 in total). There is no point not using kero on newcomen pump.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-09 19:40:42

Coconut Fruit wrote:

You would spend that kerosene on diesel pump anyways. Using kero on newcomen pump gives you 4 more buckets of water (8 in total). There is no point not using kero on newcomen pump.

You don't the kero as early if you just stick with the charcoal pump. Also, the tarry spot will dry out more slowly if you use the charcoal pump.

When kerosene was infinite, as still holds in 2HOL, there was no question. Make the kerosene pump.

But now, you get more water without using kerosene, and kerosene is finite locally. So, sticking with a charcoal pump makes sense.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-09 20:00:29

Here is a question - the dry newcomen pump is a different object than the dry kerosene newcomen pump. Both pumps have 5 uses with 10% chance to use up one of the uses each time you interact. The estimated average number of uses before the pump exhausts is 41 uses (but could be as low as 5, if you have bad luck)

Do they share the same usage or are they tracked separately? What happens to the remaining uses if you switch between kerosene and charcoal? Does it save the number or does it reset back to five?

Maybe the best option would be alternating back and forth repeatedly.

NoTruePunk · 2020-10-09 20:52:33

DestinyCall wrote:

Here is a question - the dry newcomen pump is a different object than the dry kerosene newcomen pump. Both pumps have 5 uses with 10% chance to use up one of the uses each time you interact. The estimated average number of uses before the pump exhausts is 41 uses (but could be as low as 5, if you have bad luck)
Do they share the same usage or are they tracked separately? What happens to the remaining uses if you switch between kerosene and charcoal? Does it save the number or does it reset back to five?
Maybe the best option would be alternating back and forth repeatedly.

Probably tracked together.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-09 21:47:35

NoTruePunk wrote:

Probably tracked together.

You would think so, but is the game engine able to do that?

jinbaili83 · 2020-10-09 21:58:16

if objects have same amount of uses, transitions don't reset their state. like in case shovel with dung on it

Last edited by jinbaili83 (2020-10-09 21:58:35)

Spoonwood · 2020-10-09 23:20:32

DestinyCall wrote:

Here is a question - the dry newcomen pump is a different object than the dry kerosene newcomen pump. Both pumps have 5 uses with 10% chance to use up one of the uses each time you interact. The estimated average number of uses before the pump exhausts is 41 uses (but could be as low as 5, if you have bad luck)
Do they share the same usage or are they tracked separately? What happens to the remaining uses if you switch between kerosene and charcoal? Does it save the number or does it reset back to five?
Maybe the best option would be alternating back and forth repeatedly.

I'm pretty sure they get tracked together, since the green moss on the remains of the well is the same.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-09 23:24:44

Huh.

So why does the kerosene burner even exist? If you get the same amount of water AND burn up the same amount of uses, why would you use kerosene as fuel, instead of charcoal?

Charcoal is essentially free.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-10 01:01:03

DestinyCall wrote:

Huh.
So why does the kerosene burner even exist? If you get the same amount of water AND burn up the same amount of uses, why would you use kerosene as fuel, instead of charcoal?
Charcoal is essentially free.

The kerosene pump provides more water per usage of the pump than the charcoal pump does. Also, the kerosene wick burner first existed with the oil update, before diesel engines even existed.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-10 02:53:54

Unless I am misunderstanding something, kerosene newcomen gives one tank of water after each successful firing.

That's exactly the same as the charcoal newcomen pump.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-10 09:35:36

DestinyCall wrote:

Unless I am misunderstanding something, kerosene newcomen gives one tank of water after each successful firing.
That's exactly the same as the charcoal newcomen pump.

Yes, you are misunderstanding.

A charcoal pump gives you a tank with 4 buckets of water: https://onetech.info/2234-Wet-Newcomen-Pump

A kerosene newcomen pump gives a tank with 8 buckets of water: https://onetech.info/2352-Wet-Kerosene-Newcomen-Pump

For anyone who doesn't know, I'll mention that each line in those pictures is a bucket's worth of water.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-10-10 09:37:02)

DestinyCall · 2020-10-10 15:13:06

Ah interesting. I missed that.

Hmm. So you can use charcoal newcomen pump, getting 4 buckets each, until it exhausts, or kerosene newcomen to get eight buckets for each kerosene used. When it exhausts, you switch to diesel water pump which converts one kerosene to just four buckets of water.

That is an interesting choice. Using charcoal conserves kerosene for later use, but the kerosene pump gives double-water immediately. You are not really losing anything by using the kerosene newcomen, since the diesel pump gives less water. It is just a question of eight buckets now or half now/half later.

I'd say it makes sense to burn kero if you have it. Conserving it for later use doesn't get you anymore water, so there is no need to hold back. Use charcoal if you need water and don't have any kero. Either option gets you to the same point.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-10 16:13:41

DestinyCall wrote:

You are not really losing anything by using the kerosene newcomen, since the diesel pump gives less water.

If you use the kerosene pump, you can't get water from charcoal later. That's the loss.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-10 16:21:56

What loss? You get 4 buckets by using charcoal and save one kerosene for use in diesel later on. Eight buckets total. One newcomen pump use.

Or you use kerosene on newcomen pump and get eight buckets now. Eight buckets total. One newcomen pump use.

There is no difference in cost, as far as I see.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-10 16:52:28

DestinyCall wrote:

What loss? You get 4 buckets by using charcoal and save one kerosene for use in diesel later on. Eight buckets total. One newcomen pump use.
Or you use kerosene on newcomen pump and get eight buckets now. Eight buckets total. One newcomen pump use.

Let's suppose we had a rift with only two tarry spots and only one family on the server (I know... I know... perish the thought, but this is just a hypothesis for demonstration purposes).

Alright, so let's also suppose the second tarry spot exhausts after 40 uses either way, which is a bit lucky, but not too lucky.

1. In the charcoal pump case there existed 40 uses of charges on the diesel water pump, for 320 buckets of water + 4 buckets of water from the one extra use of the charcoal pump for 324 buckets of water.

2. In the kerosene pump case you had 1 use of the kerosene newcomen pump, and 39 uses of the diesel water pump. So, 320 buckets of water.

324 > 320, and therefore, using the charcoal pump yields more water for the family in the long run.

Also, one could point out that it might take an extra bucket of water to use the newcomen bore to make wick housing, and the kerosene wick burner needs a rope, so could, in principle, also require an extra four bowls of water to make. So, the 320 number for the kerosene newcomen pump is possibly lower in terms of what it means.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-10 17:00:51

I think you just proved my point by trying to argue against it.

For all practical purposes, there is no difference in water output. Do what you want with what you have available to you.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-10-10 17:01:06)

DestinyCall · 2020-10-10 19:48:45

Also, looking over your example, I think something is really weird with your math. I am not following how you arrived at those numbers.

It doesn't change the outcome, but this is how I would do it:

You have one well and two tarry spots. According to One Tech, each tarry spot has 5 uses, but chance to use is 40%, so average times before the spot goes dry is only 11, rather than the expected average of 41 for the newcomen pump.

For the sake of simplicity, I am going to round down to 10 for the tarry spots and 40 for the pump. So each tarry spot will give ten tanks of crude oil. One tank of crude is further refined to a tank of kero, which has six uses. Therefore, the two tarry spots will net 120 kero. Assuming ALL kero is used to produce water, is it better to save all the kero to use on diesel water pump? Or should you use it on the kerosene newcomen pump too?

Let's see ...

First, we look at using charcoal. We are assuming the pump will go dry after it is used forty times, so you could use 40 charcoal to get 4 buckets each time for a total of 160 buckets of water.

Then, you install the diesel pump and run it 120 times using kero for 4 more buckets each use to gain an additional 480 buckets. Total water = 640 buckets (160+480)

Alternatively, you could install a wick burner and run the kerosene newcomen 40 times using kero, getting 8 buckets each time, for a total of 320 buckets.

Then use your remaining kero to run diesel water pump to get an additional 320 buckets. Total water = 640 buckets (320+320).

...

So exactly the same result. Doesn't matter. Water output is the same, either way.

...

Lastly, let's talk about the cost of using charcoal versus kero to run the newcomen pump. For charcoal, you need to make kindling and burn it in kiln forty times. The stone hatchet has 5 uses with 10% chance to use, so making that kindling will cost approximately one hatchet (rope). Or you could use a steel axe, which has 5 uses with 4% chance to use. Avverage uses before it breaks is 101, so it would cost roughly half of one steel axe (iron cost).

If you want to use kero instead, you must make one wick burner using a piece of iron and a rope. You must make a piece of iron into a iron rod, then use the necommen bore to hollow out the rod into a pipe, punch more holes to make a pump jacket, then add even more holes to make the wick housing. This can be done using a single firing. In fact, since you need to make one pump jacket and many pipes to gather oil, it doesn't need to cost anything extra. Just make the wick housing while making a run of steel pipes.

The kero pump does cost more than using charcoal, but the cost difference is minimal. Basically a rope AND a full bar of iron vs one rope OR part of a bar of iron. Not worth losing sleep over it, in my opinion. The kero burner might saves a little time, since you aren't fussing with charcoal production. But that only applies if you have kero ready to go. If the kero is locked up or not yet made, charcoal is probably faster.

If I was playing solo, I would probably swap to kero immediately. Otherwise, I would do which ever was easily available. It doesn't matter. They are equal.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-10 21:04:29

tl;dr - tip: At least one tank of kerosene should NOT get used to make water, instead it should getting reserved to make more kerosene.

DestinyCall wrote:

According to One Tech, each tarry spot has 5 uses, but chance to use is 40%, so average times before the spot goes dry is only 11, rather than the expected average of 41 for the newcomen pump.

Tarry spots don't have a use. I think you mean an oil pumpjack. The distinction matters. Actually, I was thinking one oil pumpjack, and one oil pump. I did though forget about how many charges of kerosene a use of an oil pumpjack or oil pump gives though, so my assumptions lead to a rather meaningless calculation.

DestinyCall wrote:

First, we look at using charcoal. We are assuming the pump will go dry after it is used forty times, so you could use 40 charcoal to get 4 buckets each time for a total of 160 buckets of water.
Then, you install the diesel pump and run it 120 times using kero for 4 more buckets each use to gain an additional 480 buckets. Total water = 640 buckets (160+480)
Alternatively, you could install a wick burner and run the kerosene newcomen 40 times using kero, getting 8 buckets each time, for a total of 320 buckets.
Then use your remaining kero to run diesel water pump to get an additional 320 buckets. Total water = 640 buckets (320+320).

Your calculations are correct. However, what both of us should have done, and neither us of did, was look at how much we get from using an oil pump, which I'll reference here: https://onetech.info/4530-Fueled-Oil-Pump. I haven't used it, but if I understand correctly, each use of the oil pump uses a charge of kerosene and provides a whole tank of kerosene with 6 charges. So, each time you use it you net 5 charges of kerosene, which is 20 buckets of a water for a diesel water pump. If one of those charges goes to a use of a kerosene newcomen pump, that's 4 more buckets of water than using charcoal pump, but one less kerosene use going to making kerosene, so it looks like 16 buckets of water *less*.

We should have also computed the net number of buckets per use, since both the charcoal pump and kerosene pump require one bucket to run. Making kerosene requires the same number of buckets either way, so we'll ignore water usage there.

DestinyCall wrote:

They are equal.

Alright, so let's say we have 10 uses for the oil pumpjack. That's 60 charges of kerosene. Then we have 24 uses for the oil pump.

1. Suppose we use the charcoal pump 40 times. 120 buckets of water, because *the net* is 3 buckets of a water on a charcoal pump. Now 60 charges of kerosene from the oil pumpjack. And we net *about* (24 times 5) = 120 charges of kerosene from the oil pump. (180 times 4) = 720. So, (120 + 720) = 840 buckets of water.

2. Suppose we use the kerosene pump 40 times. The net is 7 buckets of water. So, 280 buckets of water. So, there's still 20 charges left from the oil pumpjack. So, 140 charges with the oil pump thrown in. (140 times 4) = 560. So, (560 + 280) = 840 buckets of water.

3. Suppose kerosene is already up somewhere on the map. And from what I've seen, my impression is that towns these days are importing engines and kerosene well before having to make it themselves. So, we throw out the oil pumpjack and we just use an oil well instead. Let's suppose we only use one oil well also.

3a. Suppose we use a charcoal pump 40 times. 120 buckets of water. Netting 5 charges of kerosene, that's (5 times 24) = 120 charges of kerosene. (120 times 4) = 480 buckets of water. So, 600 buckets of water total.

3b. Suppose we take care with the kerosene prioritizing making more kerosene first when necessary. 120 charges of kerosene. 40 of those for the kerosene pump for 280 buckets of water. 80 more charges for the diesel water pump, for 320 more buckets of water. So, 600 buckets of water total.

Alright, so, in principle they do appear equal in terms of the net number of buckets of water, with the kerosene pump working faster. But, if a family uses up all of the kerosene on making water, we end up with an issue for using an oil well. So, at least one tank of kerosene should NOT get used to make water, instead getting reserved to make more kerosene.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-10 21:13:06

Uh huh ...

So they are equal.

wondible · 2020-10-10 21:14:44

Spoonwood wrote:

I haven't used it, but if I understand correctly, each use of the oil pump uses a charge of kerosene and provides a whole tank of kerosene with 6 charges. So, each time you use it you net 5 charges of kerosene

I haven't used it much either, but I believe you fuel it with one charge of kerosine, and then get exactly 24 tanks of crude oil, after which the tarry spot is dead.

I think the expected value from a tarry spot was just a way to pick an arbitrary amount of oil to do with math with though.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-10 22:20:12

DestinyCall wrote:

Uh huh ...
So they are equal.

You've assumed all 40 uses throughout though. That's fair for now, I think, because of families importing kerosene fairly quickly. But, that's not realistic if we had a server wipe or apocalypse, I think.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2020-10-09 10:51:34

Diesel or newcomen well?

#2 2020-10-09 12:15:57

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#3 2020-10-09 13:18:16

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#4 2020-10-09 13:29:54

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#5 2020-10-09 19:07:21

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#6 2020-10-09 19:40:42

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#7 2020-10-09 20:00:29

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#8 2020-10-09 20:52:33

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#9 2020-10-09 21:47:35

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#10 2020-10-09 21:58:16

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#11 2020-10-09 23:20:32

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#12 2020-10-09 23:24:44

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#13 2020-10-10 01:01:03

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#14 2020-10-10 02:53:54

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#15 2020-10-10 09:35:36

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#16 2020-10-10 15:13:06

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#17 2020-10-10 16:13:41

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#18 2020-10-10 16:21:56

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#19 2020-10-10 16:52:28

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#20 2020-10-10 17:00:51

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#21 2020-10-10 19:48:45

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#22 2020-10-10 21:04:29

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#23 2020-10-10 21:13:06

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#24 2020-10-10 21:14:44

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

#25 2020-10-10 22:20:12

Re: Diesel or newcomen well?

Board footer