Some math - When is the break evean for a plow?

Arcurus · 2020-07-13 13:41:57

A plow basically saves one soil when plowing a hard row.

So how much tiles you need to plow before it safes water? Or is it more about saving iron?

How much soil do we get from one compost? Is it 7 *3 = 21

If you get 40 water for one kero and a plow gets 24 charges then its 40/24=>1.6 water per use of the plow.

Lets forget for now the other compost stuff, then you get 21 pieces of soil for one water right?

Thats then 21 * 1,6 =< 34 tiles to be equal with water.

Still the iron and water for berries and carrots for the compost are not counted in.

Berries need at least one water for a bowl of berries plus the water from one soil.

If we alone count the water from the berries itself in, to be equal with water a plow needs to plow 34 / 2 = 17 tiles.

If we count in the water used to directly water the carrot for the compost a compost needs another 1/5 = 0.2 water per compost.

Which is then 21/(1+1+0.2) = 21 / 2.2 soil per water. If we count the soil for berries and carrots its 19.8/2.2 => 9 soil per water

9 * 1,6 = 14.4 tiles that you need to plow to break even with water.

UPDATE: i calculated wrong that a berry bowl needs 6 berries, but a bush has 7. but it comes close. In truth it is roud about 15.5 tiles.

To iron use:

Estimated uses for a hoe are 51, lets say 50

For one kero you get 5 iron. With 24 uses thats then round about 0.208 iron per use.

UPDATED: its even worse you get 5 not 6 iron from one kero, no wonder that nobody uses diesel mines.

Thats then 50 * 0.208 =< 10.4 tiles you need to plow to break even with iron.

If you calculate in that a broken hoe can be recycled you need to plow 20.8 tiles at least to break even with iron.

The iron for plowing the carrot and is not counted in. Also water / iron for straw and dung is not counted in. Straw and maybe dung can be counted zero, since you get it as side product.

So if you plow at least 16 tiles, you break even with water and saved also some iron. If we count water and iron together, the break even is around 10 tiles

Is there a mistake in the calculation?

What is also not calculated in is now much iron is needed to make one soil.

If we just count the shovel its 41 estimated uses according to onetech, 82 with reusing iron. So with two uses for making compost its round about 1/40 iron per compost, that does not seem much.

Dung and straw are side products, berries dont need iron (except for soil), and carrot need round about: 50 hoe uses. 100 with iron recycling is 1/500 iron for the carrot. which seems negligible.

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-07-16 08:47:13)

miskas · 2020-07-14 10:05:23

.............. iron water
Compost 0.03 3.45
Compost (no wheat) 0.02 2.19
Compost (wild cabbage seeds) 0.04 3.31
soil 0.002 0.16

compost has 21 soil

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ … &range=A54

Last edited by miskas (2020-07-14 11:41:21)

Arcurus · 2020-07-14 10:25:34

miskas wrote:

.............. iron water
Compost 0.03 3.42
Compost (no wheat) 0.02 2.16
Compost (wild cabage seeds) 0.04 3.31
soil 0.002 0.16
compost has 21 soil
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ … &range=A54

Compost (no wheat/ no dung???) 0.02 2.16

Dont need the carrots 1/5 = 0.2 water? So 1+1 for berry + 0.2 for carrot?

miskas · 2020-07-14 11:39:51

from what I remember I considered dung Free as it was literally clustering the place the time I did those calculations.
So all three composts have no Dung cost.

Another reason I consider Dung free is that you feed sheep for wool and food so many times that you never need to feed a sheep to craft dung, It is already lying over there for you.

about the water cost. JUST found a mistake ( it adds 0.03 to the compost water cost) after about a year or so of using this.
No its not "1+1 for berry + 0.2 for carrot"
it is 1+ 6/7 * 1 for berry + 1/5 * 1.1 for carrot + 1.1(soil) * 2.09/21 (water for 1 "no wheat" soil) for soil use to farm berry and the carrot. = 2.19 ( I am editing previous post)

Yeah I know its complex but to make Soil you need Soil.
You need soil to farm the berries and the carrot you will use to craft it.

Last edited by miskas (2020-07-14 12:16:46)

Arcurus · 2020-07-14 12:12:31

miskas wrote:

from what I remember I considered dung Free as it was literally clustering the place the time I did those calculations.
So all three composts have no Dung cost.
Another reason I consider Dung free is that you feed sheep for wool and food so many times that you never need to feed a sheep to craft dung, It is already lying over there for you.
about the water cost. JUST found a mistake ( it adds 0.03 to the compost water cost) after about a year or so of using this.
No its not "1+1 for berry + 0.2 for carrot"
it is 1+ 6/7 * 1 for berry + 1/5 * 1.1 for carrot + 1.1(soil) * 2.09/21 (water for 1 "no wheat" soil) for soil use to farm berry and the carrot. = 2.19 ( I am editing previous post)
Yeah I know its complex but to make Soil you need Soil.
You need soil to farm the berries and the carrot you will use to craft it.

oh i see, a berry bush has 7 berries, but a bowl needs only 6 thats sad...

yea, the soil i counted in by removing 1.2 soil from the result you get, since you need the soil again for carrot and berry. 6/7 for berry this would be:

21 - 6/7 -0.2 = 19,94 soil per compost, lets round it to 20. for 2,06 water, that round about 9,7 soil per water. (not counting the water needed for a carrot seed)

thats then 15.5 tiles you need to plow to break even with water.

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-07-14 12:29:40)

miskas · 2020-07-14 12:18:01

And in reality, this complex calculation is not completely right. in the "2.09" water cost of compost, you need a "Limit function" to calculate the cost of ALL the partitions of soils that were needed to make the soil that made the soil that you used to farm the berry and carrot. I didn't want to do math, 2.09 is close enough

miskas · 2020-07-14 12:36:43

Arcurus wrote:

21 - 6/7 -0.2 = 19,94 soil per compost, lets round it to 20. for 2,06 water, that roundabout 9,7 soil per water.

it 21-6/7-0.2+0.2*1/7= 19,91 (to craft carrots you need seeds, seeds have a cost)

per tile, you save 0.10 water and 0.01 iron ( if you use no wheat/dang compost cost and you would tile 1 time 1 soil to make a fertile row otherwise)

that's then 10 tiles you need to plow to break even with water.

Last edited by miskas (2020-07-14 12:47:09)

Arcurus · 2020-07-14 12:46:51

miskas wrote:

Arcurus wrote:
21 - 6/7 -0.2 = 19,94 soil per compost, lets round it to 20. for 2,06 water, that roundabout 9,7 soil per water.
it 21-6/7-0.2+0.2*1/7= 19,91 (to craft carrots you need seeds, seeds have a cost)
per tile, you save 0.10 water and 0.02 iron ( if you use no wheat/dang compost cost and you tile 2 times 1 soil to make a fertile row)
that's then 10 tiles you need to plow to break even with water.

yes, as said the seed cost i ignored, since quite small....

isnt the water cost of one kero 40/24 = 1,6 water? 10 tiles would save you 1 water. If you count in also the iron/water, isnt that you tile one time a hardened row with soil?

But also in my calculation you would break even with 10 tiles if you count also the iron in. But in reality iron is less worth then water, so the break even is something in between 10 and 16 tiles, depending how much you value iron.

As said in the calculation is straw and dung cost counted as zero, since normaly a side product. Also cost of carrot seeds, and cost for plowing berries and carrot and cost for shovel is ignored.

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-07-14 12:50:26)

miskas · 2020-07-14 13:08:42

oh yes, 1 kero cost 1.66 water (=10/6) to be produced but also 1 kero can produce 40 water.
So if you consider the cost of opportunity you use 41.6 water to run the plow.

hmmm. am I doing something wrong?

that means we spent 41.6 water to plow 24 tiles that save us 2.4 water and 0.24 iron

1 kero also produces 5 Iron if put in diesel mine.
through opportunity use of kero, we exchange 40 water for 5 iron.
0.24 iron is 1.92 water.

In the end, we use 41.6 water to save 4.32 water ?!?!?!?
...ARE plows a Hugely inefficient way to tile soil?

Last edited by miskas (2020-07-14 13:29:58)

miskas · 2020-07-14 13:17:05

doest the 24 uses on plows mean that the can tile up to 24 tiles of soil per kero?

miskas · 2020-07-14 13:21:37

miskas wrote:

doest the 24 uses on plows mean that the can tile up to 24 tiles of soil per kero?

It doesn't, It plows until it hits something it can't plow. It can go forever.
Nice soooo, Oh boy more calculations....

Last edited by miskas (2020-07-14 13:22:00)

miskas · 2020-07-14 13:39:59

FOUND IT! you need to plow 392 tiles per kero use meaning that you need to plow 16.33 tiles each plow use to break even!

Last edited by miskas (2020-07-14 13:41:14)

Arcurus · 2020-07-14 13:48:24

miskas wrote:

miskas wrote:
doest the 24 uses on plows mean that the can tile up to 24 tiles of soil per kero?
It doesn't, It plows until it hits something it can't plow. It can go forever.
Nice soooo, Oh boy more calculations....

looool, looks like you a split in yourself and talk with yourself

but i guess we are all split in our self and talk with our self all the time, so it not normal to not do it, but i guess most dont do it openly

yes a plow has 24 uses for one kero.

I did not count in the water cost to make one kero.

thx for clarifying that you get 5 iron for one kero, thats even worse, then i thought. Seems total not reasonable, but at least makes the blow little bit better in the iron cost.

miskas · 2020-07-14 13:55:30

xaxa, No I also asked in discord for a faster reply and Slinky responded immediately.

Last edited by miskas (2020-07-14 13:55:47)

Arcurus · 2020-07-14 13:56:07

so if you plow loose soil, you save 2 uses of hoe, so the break even is 10.4 tiles. But remember, normally water is more worthy, so the true break even might be much higher depending how much you value iron vs water.

If you plow at least 16 harden rows you break even with water and saved also some iron. If we count water and iron together, the break even is around 10 tiles depending how you value iron.

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-07-14 13:57:04)

Gomez · 2020-07-17 01:49:06

good job miskas people forget the opportunity cost of using the plow, kerosine is water. Also the plow screws up existing assembly lines. I'm all for the plow but....we need to make some adjustments to get the benefit out of it.

Those long rows are a logistical nightmare tbh. Remember we only live for 60 minutes and the plow is heavily dependent on getting a competent person to run it at a savings.

miskas · 2020-07-17 18:33:31

Gomez wrote:

Those long rows are a logistical nightmare tbh. Remember we only live for 60 minutes and the plow is heavily dependent on getting a competent person to run it at a savings.

the problem with the plow is that we don't need to farm particular crops in mass (17 tiles to worth it) and we don't have the storage to store it even if we do.

Saying that though what if you make a 50 tile long farmland across the road and plant your Wheat there and never bother to plant again for a while?

wheat can be harvested and stored in mass (6 per tile)

hmm, corn as well ... pretty much anything doesn't require to keep seeds.

Last edited by miskas (2020-07-17 18:38:54)

DestinyCall · 2020-07-17 19:58:34

Ideally, you should just have one incredibly long farm and plant all crops in a single endless line.

Making separate rows for each crop is less efficient. The mega farm is where it's at.

Gomez · 2020-07-17 22:36:22

Agreed Miskas staple foods, wheat and corn go ham mega farm ez moves with buckets and carts long as you dry the corn where grown, so corn highways then? Run plow and paver in conjunction?

Lay track??? Potentially worth more as storage depot than long range transport imo. Large serpentine track with small off shoot to cart unloading zone? Pein thoughts? Design? Already done?

Corn to wheat ratio? Miskas any info on that?

Agreed Destiny just run it as far as you can as long as you can, which would be start of the first major highway essentially.

So who does mapping best? Surveys seem worth reel big bwains stuff so fug? pein? idk

Why survey worth? Can solve some logistics with it. I'm not gonna dig on that tho.

Last edited by Gomez (2020-07-17 22:41:51)

pein · 2020-07-18 03:14:16

this can be used for stopping carts at locations, you can even skip the double down and just go one tile below
bit expensive with a spring on a static cart. but it can store something and even go point a to b, has to be in the gap when the other cart or carts have to be moved.

the problem is that is griefeable when is close to town and people don't know how it works. obviously you need more of this stop gaps to make it worth. like 1 to start of, 1 to stop near a mine, etc.
you can use it to get firewood from further and further. can be open ended, which is good cause all this took me a whole life to make it from scratch, so spending 2-3 hours for 3-4 stations is necessary, but rails need to be complete to function, so there is a tradeoff.

you can go back and forth so it stays in 3 wide area
n
======+>/=========
\=/

I saw the pawer in action in a videeo, not exactly sure how farming works
a straight line gonna be always an issue, you need to limit how much you walk from each spot and how much you can store.
that beeing said, a minecart can store 8x3 so for corn would be 4 per tile, each 6 tiles needs a cart on middle. for wheat would be 8 tiles. but of course you can use 2 carts per station or multiple runs for the carts to transport. but the harvesting is point a1 to b, a2 to b, a3 to b so more storage would save time on that.

basically you need a cart for each railroad and the rest can go on all of them, so 1 will need to be unloaded and reloaded for longer transport.
it would be possible to loop it back to itself, but that also requires one cart.
there are only 3 types of rails: end rails, middle rails, joints. only 2 lines can join at a point and requires 2 open ends so 2 slots for carts. as you see above, you can use one for one direction, if you would want to use one for the other direction, you would need a cart for that as well.
you can't join 3 lines into one at once, so you join 2 of them at a time, so stopping and redirecting will be necessary.

otherwise you got to go with each line from start to finish and load one into another.
jason could add stops, basically on of switch breaks to allow stopping carts on certain positions. also T junctions or T switches where cartts either stop or swittch from an | to \ or / directions.

the other rail upgrade would be automattic loading and unloading.

as for farming:
you would certainly be better off to run plows back and forth
if yo ugot to use at least 10 or 16 I would still go for double so uses half of the water, that's a nice number. but 60 minutes or rather 50-52 are too shor to do mass projects, even a 20x20 takes ages.

Sprinklrs and farms are okay but it takes a lot of time tto set it up then you got the problem on how to even use itt, you don't have more population tto feed, it does not depend on it, you don't have a major need for excess, no way to sell it or exchange itt for other suff so it's kinda just for fun.

miskas · 2020-07-18 05:35:25

Pein , you cant stop 1 cart at will BUT you can stop 2 carts at will. just click the first one it will change direction and be blocked by the following cart.

Stopings carts is ultra simple and you don't need extra rails for it. you just need to have 2 carts on the rails instead of 1.

Gomez wrote:

Corn to wheat ratio? Miskas any info on that?

challenge accepted, I am on it!

Last edited by miskas (2020-07-18 05:35:59)

miskas · 2020-07-18 06:24:24

Gomez! 6 wheat per 4 corn plants!

Stats
I assumed that you only need to eat a food Once.

in practice, because people don't yum and overconsume pies we would need 7 wheat per 3 corns.
My advice is to start with a 6 to 4 ration but then plant whatever we don't have a surplus of.

PS: to produce every wheat/corn food once (26 total wheat/corn foods) you need 7 wheat and 4 corn plants.
That doesn't mean you can eat all this food though!
If you you will eat more or less 16 of them. if you crave, about 8 (vaguely calculated on intuition)

Last edited by miskas (2020-07-18 06:36:27)

Lava · 2020-07-18 07:07:42

Fuck the break even use whatever kerosene device for your pleasure

miskas · 2020-07-18 08:44:13

Lava wrote:

Fuck the break even use whatever kerosene device for your pleasure

some people just have fun being efficient or want their cities to last longer. I am sure you don't have a problem with that.
But sorry if you do have a problem with the other people that want all players to be efficient.
If someone doesn't let you do whatever you please just curse them.

You do you, we do us.

Lava · 2020-07-18 09:05:38

miskas wrote:

Lava wrote:
Fuck the break even use whatever kerosene device for your pleasure
some people just have fun being efficient or want their cities to last longer. I am sure you don't have a problem with that.
But sorry if you do have a problem with the other people that want all players to be efficient.
If someone doesn't let you do whatever you please just curse them.
You do you, we do us.

Don’t think you know the reality of the oil diesal pump but ok my guy xD.

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Some math - When is the break evean for a plow?

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