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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 2020-05-28 14:14:23

Crumpaloo
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Registered: 2018-12-16
Posts: 371

The Paradox of Genescore

Jason says to take care of less kids, but besides leaving a homeland there are no ways to directly affect whether you have kids or not.


Example A: Sally Has just had 2 kids, Tim and Diane, Sally doesn't want anymore kids because she wants to be a good parent for the ones she already has, yet in order to not have anymore kids and risk losing gene-score she has to stay away from the very kids shes suppose to be a good parent to via the homeland. So as a result she lives out the rest of her life as a hermit in other towns hoping her children are still alive.


Example B:Lets say Sally had her 2 kids and decides that even though she might have another child, she  wants to be there for her kids and take care of them. A short while later Sally has another baby, lets say this baby is Bob, now sally has to divide her attention towards 3 people making good parenting harder, but wait, now bob has a little sister and her name is Mary. A couple more babies later and Sally is completely overloaded, theres no way she can take care of all these babies with the attention they deserve and  as a result, some of the newer players/babies starve to death or run  away and  starve. Now Sallys daughters have had several grandchildren and at this point Sally has no control over the situation whatsoever. She tries to convince one of her grandsons to not run away and starve and gets a mindful "fuck off" before dying of old age.


Get what im saying here? People wanna be good parents towards the 1 or 2 kids they DO have, yet with no way to control births so any that do choose to stay can end up getting punished severely for just doing their best. As a result the only way to save your score and be a "good player" is to just not have kids at all and leech of the backs of your mother and grandmothers scores, which isnt really a good determination of how good of a person you are to your village.


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#2 2020-05-28 14:37:22

miskas
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From: Greece
Registered: 2018-03-24
Posts: 1,087

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

Yeap this is a problem, going homesick might be the best way to get gene score.


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#3 2020-05-28 14:37:57

Arcurus
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Registered: 2020-04-23
Posts: 815

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

Jason - Github wrote:

I don't necessarily want to reward more offspring at any cost.

People should be trying to ensure the survival of the offspring that they do have.

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/629

so yea for the gene score not spreading your genes is often better for your score...

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-05-28 14:40:54)

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#4 2020-05-28 14:42:54

Catfive
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Registered: 2018-07-27
Posts: 256

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

Arcurus wrote:
Jason - Github wrote:

I don't necessarily want to reward more offspring at any cost.

People should be trying to ensure the survival of the offspring that they do have.

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/629

so yea for the gene score not spreading your genes is often better for your score...

do SID babies not impact your gene score? because that is very common

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#5 2020-05-28 15:43:23

wondible
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Registered: 2018-04-19
Posts: 829

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

Catfive wrote:

do SID babies not impact your gene score? because that is very common

No. This is why people get mad at runners - they could have died and spared you score.

Often this is deciding factor for me:

Accidentally clicked login? /die.

You abandoned me? Darn right I'm sticking around to ding your score too.


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#6 2020-05-28 15:59:16

JonySky
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From: Catalunya
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Posts: 635
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Re: The Paradox of Genescore

I've been saying for a long time that this game is a big ball of contradictions

Absurd and useless problems are being solved every week ... but the core of the game is broken and full of contradictions

the funny thing is that it is a game that is described as "a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building", but you can't really raise your children, nor create a civilization

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#7 2020-05-28 16:30:02

miskas
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From: Greece
Registered: 2018-03-24
Posts: 1,087

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

JonySky wrote:

"a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building", but you can't really raise your children, nor create a civilization

you could raise your kids you just make too many to raise them properly. I can raise 1 kid per 10 minutes Properly and no more.
it would be much better if you could choose when you want a kid.

As for civilization, well there is only one civilization, the player base and it is a mixing pot of everyone, If you see we have similar city designs, similar food preferences, we say, please yum and we destroy berries, we make spam pies and always make a similar kitchen building and smithing.

We luck separated and dedicated groups of people to form separate interests and traditions. If we could stick to a family and always have the same co-players the player base would split to groups and would form different interests and practices.

playing only 60 minutes and in random places and families doesn't help to form group identity.

Last edited by miskas (2020-05-28 16:31:06)


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#8 2020-05-28 16:47:43

JonySky
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From: Catalunya
Registered: 2018-05-13
Posts: 635
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Re: The Paradox of Genescore

miskas wrote:
JonySky wrote:

"a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building", but you can't really raise your children, nor create a civilization

you could raise your kids you just make too many to raise them properly. I can raise 1 kid per 10 minutes Properly and no more.
it would be much better if you could choose when you want a kid.

As for civilization, well there is only one civilization, the player base and it is a mixing pot of everyone, If you see we have similar city designs, similar food preferences, we say, please yum and we destroy berries, we make spam pies and always make a similar kitchen building and smithing.

We luck separated and dedicated groups of people to form separate interests and traditions. If we could stick to a family and always have the same co-players the player base would split to groups and would form different interests and practices.

playing only 60 minutes and in random places and families doesn't help to form group identity.

When you talk about raising a child ... what do you mean? abandon it in a fireplace for another player to feed your child ... or do you mean pick up your child 5 times and say "GL" as an adult? I know ... there's no time for anything more than that

About civilizations ... in OHOL they are non-existent ... we only have some towns identical to each other (sometimes we call them cities, but they are only "towns" ...)

They are just "towns" without history, without identity, without culture, without legends anything that can be defined as a civilization

And here I agree with Spoonwood when he talks about those towns disappearing behind every update

Last edited by JonySky (2020-05-28 16:49:15)

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#9 2020-05-28 18:22:45

Spoonwood
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Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,787

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

I hadn't commented in this thread so far.  But, it does hold that lineages die out with updates.

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#10 2020-05-28 19:32:15

miskas
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From: Greece
Registered: 2018-03-24
Posts: 1,087

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

JonySky wrote:

...

about raising a child, I teach them the basics of how to survive, clothes, yum food, onetech.info, and guide them to craft something they want or need to.

About civilization, you are actually right we might have common practices and rules but we have no history and no identity, living in random and expendable families.


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#11 2020-05-28 20:14:09

jasonrohrer
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Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,724

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

Are people regularly being overwhelmed with too many babies?

Because if so, that should be fixed, and that would solve this problem.

There is going to be some variability in how many kids each person has, due to various factors (player population change vs time of day and such).

This might be as simple as adjusting the birth cooldown to make it longer (remember that your cooldown is reset when you have a SIDs baby).

Here's an example of high variability, where one gen 3 had 18 babies, and gen 4 had only 4 babies.

http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=6256645


But we really can't give too much control to players about "not having bb", because the incoming bb do need mothers.

If half the mothers opted not to have BB at all (for gene score reasons), then the remaining mothers would need to have 2x more BB to keep up with incoming players, or we'd have to spawn a ton more Eves to take up the slack.

This is supposed to be a game where 99% of players are born as helpless babies.  The game isn't supposed to default to "eve mode" except in very rare situations.


This is a game about being in the middle of a chain.


I think we need some stats about how many BB each person has.

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#12 2020-05-28 20:35:23

jasonrohrer
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Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,724

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

Data for May 2020 only.

Graphs:

50hepir.png

Same data with log scale so you can see the small number of people with extreme numbers of births:

cOO8doY.png

Average is 3.78 kids per mom.  Median is 3.

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#13 2020-05-28 20:38:39

jasonrohrer
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Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,724

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

But even a small number of folks who had 20-40 babies this month is troubling.


I wonder if there just needs to be a hard limit per lifetime of how many BB you can have.  Maybe 8?  The SIDS bb wouldn't count toward that limit.

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#14 2020-05-28 20:59:56

DiscardedSlinky
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Re: The Paradox of Genescore

jasonrohrer wrote:

But even a small number of folks who had 20-40 babies this month is troubling.


I wonder if there just needs to be a hard limit per lifetime of how many BB you can have.  Maybe 8?  The SIDS bb wouldn't count toward that limit.

I think that is an extremely bad idea. People could wipe out a family very easily if they just lived a few years and died over and over.


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#15 2020-05-28 21:13:50

antking:]#
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Registered: 2018-12-29
Posts: 576

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

jasonrohrer wrote:

But even a small number of folks who had 20-40 babies this month is troubling.


I wonder if there just needs to be a hard limit per lifetime of how many BB you can have.  Maybe 8?  The SIDS bb wouldn't count toward that limit.

How about if a Parent has X amount of BBs in X amount of time, (unites will have to thought of may be 3 in 1 min) they will be counted as invalidate and if no other parents are available, the child will become an eve, because most of the BB rains are caused when a the server goes from low pop to high pop, or during the beginning where the amount of moms are small, and if we had a system like this we could smoothing the transition between Low pop times to high pop times, and make sure that there are more Eves available when ever the their are a lot of people trying to log in, who will divide the burden off BB spawns


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#16 2020-05-28 21:32:36

miskas
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From: Greece
Registered: 2018-03-24
Posts: 1,087

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

I would be ok giving each child 5 minutes of care. this is 25/5=5 babies though not 8.
8 babies are a 3.15 minutes per bb. Meaning your whole life you are feeding helpless bbs without any meaningful interaction with them , no teaching no guiding no working together.

Does the graph subtract the births that SID later? Sids are 30% of births.

Last edited by miskas (2020-05-28 21:42:04)


Killing a griefer kills him for 10 minutes, Cursing him kills him for 90 Days.

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#17 2020-05-28 22:00:04

jasonrohrer
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Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,724

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

No, the graph is raw bb count, including SIDs bb.

Regarding people being able to "kill" a family by dying as BB over and over to use up the mother's BB quota...

They can already do that to some degree through birth cool-down, right?  Get born, run away, die.  Then mother is on cooldown.


I mean, the idea that someone would intentionally target a given mother this way is pretty far-fetched.  How would they guarantee that they get reborn to her?


I think this should probably be handled via cool-down....  that would be easy (every mom must wait 5 min between non-SIDs BB).

The reason I don't just do that is that having 2 bb right in a row is a funny part of the game.  I'm hesitant to lose that.  It's classic for mother to say, "Oh crap!" when another BB is born too soon.

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#18 2020-05-28 22:07:33

Coconut Fruit
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Registered: 2019-08-16
Posts: 806

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

Idk. Tho, lately some families die out due to lack of players. We sometimes have peaks of 25 players on BS2. It's not rare that one fam has half the server population.
I think it would be cool to remove the 5th Eve spawn when all families are late generations. Let us play with 4 families all the time.

Last edited by Coconut Fruit (2020-05-29 14:17:52)


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#19 2020-05-28 22:20:38

miskas
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From: Greece
Registered: 2018-03-24
Posts: 1,087

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

jasonrohrer wrote:

The reason I don't just do that is that having 2 bb right in a row is a funny part of the game.  I'm hesitant to lose that.  It's classic for mother to say, "Oh crap!" when another BB is born too soon.

It's fun for the viewer, not the player.
For the player that faces this every other life would be annoying or boring as he will just wait by the fire for another 3 minutes in a row without doing any bonding and interacting neither with the first or the second child. These classic annoyances are too common that wear out the player base and we stop caring anymore, we just dump them by the RP breastfeeding Nurse and get on with it. Instead of us wanting children and love them we are seeing them as an annoyance.

me myself that care for Gene score don't pick them up immediately and ignore them praying that they will think I abandon them and /die or another mother takes them.
If that fails I come back picked them up, of course.

Last edited by miskas (2020-05-28 22:21:38)


Killing a griefer kills him for 10 minutes, Cursing him kills him for 90 Days.

4 curses kill him for all of us,  Mass Cursing bring us Peace! Please Curse!
Food value stats

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#20 2020-05-28 22:28:04

testo
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Registered: 2019-05-12
Posts: 696

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

People get huge loads of babies when a player is trying to force a spawn on a family where they are blocked out because of the curse system. Since each player gets 24 free tries you can easily get a mother with 10 or 20 sids just because two people wanted to be ginger or to come back to help that starting village where they just died but someone else is now blocking them out. Everything else is sort of normal in my opinion.

The problem are SIDs and suicide babies on the same familiy over and over again and the humongous number of tokens everyone has to SID. Just add a small area block everytime a player SIDs around her mother for ten minutes and 40 tiles, since an SID bb doesn´t want to live there anyways. Also turn down max lives to 12 please. Alternatively just tell everyone after SID when they are blocked from a particular family.


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#21 2020-05-28 22:44:11

wondible
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Registered: 2018-04-19
Posts: 829

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

My main baby overloads were early camps on server cycling. Those numbers have been adjusted, and I don't think I've played that situation since.

Haven't been too overloaded lately; had one childless life. Extra babies can be troublesome when trying to teach a new player. Often I'll try to work with child, but get overwhelmed with more and go back to the fire.

I agree you can't have absolute fertility control when players need get into the game. But some players are overwhelmed, and others pine for children that never come. Perhaps we could express a preference, without having to hamper our own survival. Right now the options are:

Homeland (absolute block) - constrains your movement and activities.
Clothes - if you want to reduce your fertility, you have to increase your food use.
Heat - maybe standing around a fire (or out in the cold) isn't what you want to do.
Yum - kind of essential for survival now, somewhat limited by how fast you get hungry, and currently not possible to reduce.


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#22 2020-05-29 00:14:50

Spoonwood
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Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,787

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

jasonrohrer wrote:

But we really can't give too much control to players about "not having bb", because the incoming bb do need mothers.

No, more control could get given to players.  More players could start as adults.  After all it did happen that everyone spawned as adults for a bit a while back. More players starting as adults, would also lead to a greater variety of stories (especially if some players started as men), since being a baby over and over again is samey.

jasonrohrer wrote:

This is supposed to be a game where 99% of players are born as helpless babies.

There is nothing in any advertisement that says such.  It's a boring supposition, and leads to a poverty of possible stories.

jasonrohrer wrote:

This is a game about being in the middle of a chain.

Then the game will remain poor in the early game and then end game, because it's only supposed to be one way instead of multiple ways.  Again, there is no advertisement that I know of that says the game will be this way or that on this matter.

A greater variety of stories is possible were it the case that more players started as adults, or even 3 year olds, instead of the mass of players starting as babies.

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#23 2020-05-29 00:28:50

Crumpaloo
Member
Registered: 2018-12-16
Posts: 371

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

jasonrohrer wrote:

Are people regularly being overwhelmed with too many babies?

Because if so, that should be fixed, and that would solve this problem.

There is going to be some variability in how many kids each person has, due to various factors (player population change vs time of day and such).

This might be as simple as adjusting the birth cooldown to make it longer (remember that your cooldown is reset when you have a SIDs baby).

Here's an example of high variability, where one gen 3 had 18 babies, and gen 4 had only 4 babies.

http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=6256645


But we really can't give too much control to players about "not having bb", because the incoming bb do need mothers.

If half the mothers opted not to have BB at all (for gene score reasons), then the remaining mothers would need to have 2x more BB to keep up with incoming players, or we'd have to spawn a ton more Eves to take up the slack.

This is supposed to be a game where 99% of players are born as helpless babies.  The game isn't supposed to default to "eve mode" except in very rare situations.


This is a game about being in the middle of a chain.


I think we need some stats about how many BB each person has.

Home Sickness already gave players birth control. You cant enter your village between the ages of 14-39 but so long as your not jeopardizing your score alot of players think it worth it. The current system encourages to not just have a few children, but none at all, they are a gene-score gamble that people just arent willing to take. I cant tell you the amount of runner babies or new player starvation's ive had even though i tried my very best to look after them and end up tanking my score.

The main problem i see is theres no hindsight for edge cases like people that tank scores on purpose, or when you only have 2 girls, but they go on to have 3 kids each and as a result some of them starve.


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#24 2020-05-29 00:36:12

antking:]#
Member
Registered: 2018-12-29
Posts: 576

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

what only you can lessen your Gene score? what I mean is that Only you can cause your gene score to fall, and any BBs, or grandchildren can only add to your Gene score, of course if they die young they won't provide any score but if the only factor of loosing score comes from yourself and everyone acts like extra credit, it will give players incentive to take care of a few children for the extra gene score while not feeling obligated to take care of every BB in fear of loosing score


"hear how the wind begins to whisper, but now it screams at me" said ashe
"I remember it from a Life I never Lived" said Peaches
"Now Chad don't invest in Asian markets" said Chad's Mom
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#25 2020-05-29 00:46:22

Legs
Member
Registered: 2019-07-12
Posts: 376

Re: The Paradox of Genescore

Do nieces and nephews affect your gene score when you're female?

If not fleeing homeland as a woman is a clear exploit.


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