New idea for killing

Legs · 2020-05-07 23:08:55

I don't believe that the posse system can achieve results, no matter how much you tweak it.

To begin with we needed this no-solo system because of griefers using medical vests to repeatedly heal each other, meaning that even if you wounded them several times they wouldn't actually die until all their pads were exhausted. For each wound inflicted a townie would die during their cooldown. Posses were intended to counter this. They have largely failed. Statistically there are far fewer murders, sure. Most players agree that this is frustrating and they hate it. Now, only griefers can murder. Let's say posse requirements continue to become stricter over time. Then, nobody can murder.

Griefers can still grief very effectively without killing anyone. This is frustrating. We hate this.

So what do we do? Griefer murder posses are so effective because they establish trust. They are a group, not a collection of unrelated individuals. That's their entire advantage here. They can only be countered by another group. This proposal seems intended to organize that: using the hierarchy system in place of trust. It's not going to work because it's this goofy over-complicated halfassed idea like the rest of the posse mechanics have been.

We need blessings to establish friendly player in-groups. That's the only way that this works.

It's impossible to reliably establish trust in-game, there's too much going on. Everyone's too busy with their own lives to take note of every towns-person's moral character. Communication is difficult and in a pinch there's no way to know who's good or bad. All they know is there's someone trying to murder, someone got stabbed. Why? Was the guy you killed evil? Are you evil? What's going on here? Nobody knows what's happening until it's too late: there's no trust, no communication and no kind of organized reaction.

Blessings, like curses, are clear and straightforward. Even a new player can understand them.

A new player with a genius daughter who goes straight to work for the town can see she's a good kid and bless her. A simple carrot farmer who needs a hoe can go to the smithy and see a clever young man with a cowlick banging one out straight away and bless him. A brand new player who's learning the basics of the game from his patient mother can express his thanks, by blessing her. I like you, you're a good person, thank you. Bless you. Even without any esoteric effects on birth conditions, the simple fact of being able to mark trusted players across lifetimes would make all the difference. It would shut down this kind of confusion overnight and make posses SO much easier to implement in a simpler and more effective way.

It could also provide a much-requested mechanic to reverse curses towards innocent players...

JackTreehorn · 2020-05-07 23:09:33

That could work, it would make rebellions a lot simpler to deal with.
However it wont give the rebellion makers much time to try and gather support.
If it was based on how many allies you have in a range, while the dominant hierarchy is gathering their posse big enough to kill you and your followers you could be pleading others to join your cause to try and overthrow the "bad" king.

If it were solo kills for rebellion makers.
A bad king could exile then solokill repeatedly and if someone tried to rebel and got one or two followers they could still get solokilled until they died out or their faction was bigger than the bad king which would be difficult because of all their followers dropping dead.

Either way it will be a great addition to the game.

Last edited by JackTreehorn (2020-05-07 23:30:43)

Legs · 2020-05-07 23:10:02

I'm not saying that we should be able to establish some kind of shady ohol hegemony from coordinated veterans. Make it anonymous if you want, we don't necessarily need individually assigned bless-names. Just make it a generic +BLESSED+ or something. I mean, there's a clear precedence here. Cursed players are already marked between lives. The theme of strict anonymity is already violated, why are you so reluctant to give us a blessing mechanic?

Cantface · 2020-05-07 23:15:23

'antking: wrote:

it is not that complicated, just think it about it like this....
the amount of Allies you have = how big the posse has to be to kill you
If you are exiled = you have no Allies you can be solo killed

The point I was making is; HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS TO NEW PLAYERS??? You gonna teach em about hierarchy and posse mechanics in under an hour? Good luck!

AND HOW TO YOU GET VETS TO USE A SYSTEM THEY BARELY USED IN THE FIRST PLACE?

I read the same post as you, I understand it and dislike it immensely. You don't have to explain anything to me, but if you want it to work you better TEACH IT to those that don't know how to use it.

Last edited by Cantface (2020-05-07 23:16:12)

antking:]# · 2020-05-07 23:19:16

Cantface wrote:

'antking: wrote:
it is not that complicated, just think it about it like this....
the amount of Allies you have = how big the posse has to be to kill you
If you are exiled = you have no Allies you can be solo killed
The point I was making is; HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS TO NEW PLAYERS??? You gonna teach em about hierarchy and posse mechanics in under an hour? Good luck!
AND HOW TO YOU GET VETS TO USE A SYSTEM THEY BARELY USED IN THE FIRST PLACE?
I read the same post as you, I understand it and dislike it immensely. You don't have to explain anything to me, but if you want it to work you better TEACH IT to those that don't know how to use it.

oh sorry cantface I just thought you didn't understand it, but I get what you mean

Last edited by antking:]# (2020-05-07 23:21:53)

Legs · 2020-05-07 23:29:04

So basically, this system is based on elder-approval. The oldest person in town is the leader. In order to kill anyone, the elder must exile them. Then, anyone can solo kill that exile without any chance of retaliation.

What's to stop a griefer from just... hanging out until they're old? Hide the bellows, drop a stack of buckets behind a tree. Munch a lot of berry and hoard all the pie. People get suspicious there's a griefer. So you kill all the sheep or release some boars in town. Now you're old and you start making accusations. Lying about him or her being a griefer. Your friend gets stabby and backs up your lies. Nobody knows what to think and you keep throwing your weight around. Anyone who doubts you gets stuck. People stop doubting. Meanwhile you keep picking them off one by one.

I bet if you tried you could stagger your births so as soon as one of you dies from old age the next becomes the elder, and so on. Order your targets by age, the oldest die first because they're your rivals. It would be easy.

Jojigirl · 2020-05-07 23:32:23

I never really messed with the leadership/follow part of the game. The first thought that I had after reading this is I would be watching other villagers to find the hard workers of the town and follow one of them to keep them safe. Which would be encouraging players to use the leadership/follow options in the game. I like the idea of being able to make our dedicated workers harder to kill.

Coconut Fruit · 2020-05-07 23:32:37

Legs wrote:

To begin with we needed this no-solo system because of griefers using medical vests to repeatedly heal each other, meaning that even if you wounded them several times they wouldn't actually die until all their pads were exhausted.

That's not true. I've seen situations like this in the past. Majority was able to kill all griefers at once before they could even heal each other, we had no killing waiting time period yet, so it was an easy task. Kill griefers and heal good people. Simple as that. The only confusion was who is good and who is not, it wasn't always obvious.

Together with curses people rarery were killing innocent people, they didn't want to get cursed for doing this.

We still had pretty big amount of kills per day... But probably most of them deserved to die, or asked to be killed for fun which happened often. It was a good system.

Cantface · 2020-05-07 23:41:23

Coconut Fruit wrote:

It was a good system.

Yep, it really was. I miss it.

Lightning · 2020-05-08 00:09:54

Cantface wrote:

The point I was making is; HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS TO NEW PLAYERS??? You gonna teach em about hierarchy and posse mechanics in under an hour? Good luck!
AND HOW TO YOU GET VETS TO USE A SYSTEM THEY BARELY USED IN THE FIRST PLACE?
I read the same post as you, I understand it and dislike it immensely. You don't have to explain anything to me, but if you want it to work you better TEACH IT to those that don't know how to use it.

People tend to figure out stuff by themselves with time, just like most stuff that have been added to the game, but players need to familiarize with the concept first, aswell as, actually giving TIME for them to adapt to the changes, otherwise this could turn out to be another "posse system balance", and that really wont work anymore.

Its up to Jason if he wants to aid the players to understand this new mechanic or not, if the concept is too complicated, he could try expanding the tutorial, with this new possible addition, just like he did with curse mechanics, and i would recommend doing that, since we have already used quite some time in all these recent conflicts (not even mentioning the confusion), time that could potentionally have be used on bringing actual content to the game.

If its a good and interesting update it can, possibly, attract people back to playing again, aswell, as bringing some relief to the accumulated discomfort of the community towards the killing topic.

Looks promising, but ill have to wait and see how it turns out to be in the end, before saying anything else.

Last edited by Lightning (2020-05-08 00:11:19)

JackTreehorn · 2020-05-08 00:12:23

It shouldn't be that complicated for new players to learn, A min posse size sign pops up when attacking. All you need to tell new players is you are safer when you are part of the hierarchy (group).

Last edited by JackTreehorn (2020-05-08 00:13:13)

wondible · 2020-05-08 00:14:16

Perhaps we if have nearly free first-aid - anyone can "hold the wound closed" to stop the death timer. The majority can hold more wounds. Heirarchy can be tied in by giving you a notice when an ally gets wounded, and they can't help if they aren't around, so we aren't relaying on the server to count who's nearby and do a bunch of math.

For this to work you do have to be able to wound the griefers, so we need to go back to having some degree of control and wide distribution of weapons and pads.

Might still be too much. With more wounds we might need easier healing, and the organized greifers will be able to use all of it to protect each other.

The wounded notice for allies might be useful regardless, a lot of the problems for victims are related to information and coordination. Knowing someone might come save you could be a nice incentive to join up.

jasonrohrer · 2020-05-08 00:23:00

Canface, this goes along with a change that makes leadership perpetual and the default.

So most of the time, most players will have a leader and allies.

They will only NOT have a leader or allies if someone manually intervenes, either by de-following or exiling.

Let's say you know nothing about leadership and you try to kill a griefer.

It will tell you that they have 8 allies and 0 enemies, so you need a posse of 6 to do it (or whatever number, based on the population), with a DING message (similar to the current one that shows posse requirements).

It will also give you an arrow toward their top leader, and say, "THE LEADER WHO CAN EXILE THEM -- EIGHT METERS AWAY"

You can then appeal to that leader to exile them, which will suddenly give them 8 enemies.

At that point, you can solo kill them.

The_Anabaptist · 2020-05-08 00:30:17

I for one hate both the posse and leadership systems. I would put up with more solo killing rather than see more time wasted on both of these pointless systems. I want real updates, not more of this garbage.

The_Anabaptist

Cantface · 2020-05-08 00:41:04

Lightning wrote:

People tend to figure out stuff by themselves with time, just like most stuff that have been added to the game, but players need to familiarize with the concept first, aswell as, actually giving TIME for them to adapt to the changes, otherwise this could turn out to be another "posse system balance", and that really wont work anymore.

Do they? Hierarchy-barely used, Posse-barely used, how can new players learn about something they barely have any exposure to when they're struggling with the BASICS? Until it's too late of course. This is information overload to them, they just wanna learn how to clothe/cook for themselves and maybe how feeding their baby works because that got changed too!

Lightning wrote:

Its up to Jason if he wants to aid the players to understand this new mechanic or not, if the concept is too complicated, he could try expanding the tutorial, with this new possible addition, just like he did with curse mechanics, and i would recommend doing that, since we have already used quite some time in all these recent conflicts (not even mentioning the confusion), time that could potentionally have be used on bringing actual content to the game.

I literally suggested a tutorial for these things the other day...instead a flawed system got tweaked even more, rather than trying to educate people in game about joining a posse, hierarchies got thrown in the mix.

Ppl have been begging for actual content for months and months now, myself included. Nope! Let's tweak this and rebalance that! Hey let's make people starve by reducing food values by half! So funny and clearly worth the time oops haha silly me! You guys shouldn't cook so much food UWU NERF NERF

Lightning wrote:

If its a good and interesting update it can, possibly, attract people back to playing again, aswell, as bringing some relief to the accumulated discomfort of the community towards the killing topic.
Looks promising, but ill have to wait and see how it turns out to be in the end, before saying anything else.

The only players this game attracts are highly strung/stressed vets that try to keep the game alive or migrate to thol eventually and new people that see the trailer and think 'ooh this looks unique!' only to be majorly let down once they realise this is a game balanced against them BIG TIME.

Good for you for being positive at least! Ignore me if you want, I'm just feeling hella salty right now.

jasonrohrer · 2020-05-08 00:41:30

Glad to hear that my hard work this week is appreciated, Anabaptist.

jasonrohrer · 2020-05-08 00:48:07

Cantface, do you think it's a good idea to pile new content on top of a game where existing systems are broken and unused?

If you keep doing that, you end up with a game that keeps growing and growing, but remains broken at the core.

Better to get all the existing stuff working correctly and actually used before adding even more stuff.

As a simple example, I could have added a bunch of new foods to the game a few weeks ago, but that would have been a waste, because so many of the existing foods were completely unused. Much better to spend time getting all the existing stuff rebalanced, and rework YUM along with it. And suddenly, formerly dead and ignored food content is being actively used in the game again.

These are hard problems to solve, and they take time.

Thank you for your patience as I work myself to death each week trying to make the best game imaginable.

Cantface · 2020-05-08 00:52:10

jasonrohrer wrote:

Canface, this goes along with a change that makes leadership perpetual and the default.
So most of the time, most players will have a leader and allies.
They will only NOT have a leader or allies if someone manually intervenes, either by de-following or exiling.

Let's say you know nothing about leadership and you try to kill a griefer.
It will tell you that they have 8 allies and 0 enemies, so you need a posse of 6 to do it (or whatever number, based on the population), with a DING message (similar to the current one that shows posse requirements).
It will also give you an arrow toward their top leader, and say, "THE LEADER WHO CAN EXILE THEM -- EIGHT METERS AWAY"
You can then appeal to that leader to exile them, which will suddenly give them 8 enemies.
At that point, you can solo kill them.

Well let's just wait for the results right Jason? Let's see if people will be able to fight back bobo's hierarchy with the tools you have given them. I highly doubt it but hey make me eat my salty words and prove us naysayers wrong. Maybe with a graph!
I'll only be watching as I want no damn part of the game seeing as you've fed the troll NUMEROUS times, baited someone probably over half your age into a stupid back and forth and now they'll be as active as ever just for the shits and giggles. Fucking top notch.

Laskara · 2020-05-08 00:53:42

I like that this also makes heirarchies mean something. I look forward to seeing how this impacts greifers.

Laskara · 2020-05-08 01:03:36

Legs wrote:

blessings

I really like this idea, but there has to be a way to cancel out a blessing somehow or the greifers will be able to abuse this easily just by cycling productive activities with griefing

Cantface · 2020-05-08 01:03:47

I didn't think the old solo killing system was broken but you know best. You had one of the best games imaginable, before you overworked yourself making adjustments. Let's just leave it at that.

jasonrohrer · 2020-05-08 01:08:41

Chance The Rapper wrote:

Ugh, I'm just having fun with it

Crumpaloo · 2020-05-08 01:19:48

jasonrohrer wrote:

Glad to hear that my hard work this week is appreciated, Anabaptist.

I mean Jason you can get passive-aggressive about people wanting the old system back, but you cant blame people. Because it was simple,realistic, allowed vets to keep their towns safe, and provided medics with a active job.

Then a unrealistic, complicated, system that benefited griefers and put a target on veterans backs was implemented. Do any of those sound like good things? Do they really benefit the players at large? Is it not hard to make an exception in belief that out of all the things added in this game that this system was flawed?

If so then why do you keep adding onto it even after all the community disapproval? Surely if the community responds so negatively to the posse system even after 10+ updates to it something must be wrong...

Maybe i just got rose-tinted glasses on but feels like even with everything not in the game a year ago, it was still just as good as it is now if not better, more freedom to do what you want, no needless system to bog down creativity and experiences.

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2020-05-08 01:32:25)

Lightning · 2020-05-08 01:27:20

Cantface wrote:

Good for you for being positive at least! Ignore me if you want, I'm just feeling hella salty right now.

Dont even mention it, Cantface, its all right, i can understand the reason behind your saltyness, i think we are all a bit on our nerves with all this trouble, aint we? ¿who wouldnt though?, it surely can be a dissapointing, seeing such an unique game being just torn apart and stitched back up, over and over, it puts just even more stress in the already annoyed community, some people just want to enjoy the game ...you know?

I believe its for that reason that Jason stands by such a flexible refund policy, he knows thats its annoying for us to bear with this, so if one day we grow tired'n'sick from the ever changing game, we could get refunded quickly, if one truly wished it...

Changing a bit the subject, letting you know that you did some great work with those fan arts drawings, and i would encourage you to keep doing so, they were pretty well made.

Last edited by Lightning (2020-05-08 01:29:59)

pein · 2020-05-08 01:37:18

that really sounds to me like a bunch of random

sometimes I had like a decent rank and didn't really cared, also cause hetuw hid some of it? not sure
one time I gave orders, nobody really cared anyway. Do you know how many times I got crown randomly? a lot. How many times did anyone acknowledge my work with a crown? only once, in a city getting water from 80 tiles above in a revived city who had no water for 2 hours.
That's the thing, a veteran can pick out a skilled leader from the mass, I recognized Dodge or Lava, Mirelli or Tarr many times, Pharo even worked with me several times in a row without knowing it's me. But a newbie will pick out a random girl cause it seen it on videos that he supposed to pick someone to wield a knife.

Do you know how many times Aurora had a crown? every fricking life. Do you know why? cause they spend their entire life doing nothing but chatting, begging, conspiring and drama making while true leaders work their ass off doing the next big thing, fixing issues.

Now I don't want to be too big faced but mechanically I'm surely in top 30 at least, knowing all the recipes, doing the complex ones even without checking them, having one of the highest life averages.
Who do you want to make leaders? roleplayers?

This whole thing is random, the same as gene score. It's purely random, skill doesn't matter, you took away the slots, which hurts people with versatile style and rewards people with the boring style who don't even care about those extra slots.

If leadership goes down the line, the biggest idiots get to be a leader and they will abuse their power for the sole reason that they have it. Like before, when people killed others because they had a knife.

Why don't you add a Hp system? a non-lethal combat? safety in numbers. Players with more HP and a lot of tools used as weapons would win.
A different combat system? Some honour to the fights?

We are way past that your argument that "it's not realistic"
We got force fields around biomes, magical iron, magical leaders, magical genes and magical slots, magical nerfs.

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