More iron nerfing coming next update...

voy178 · 2020-03-25 18:56:28

I don't understand. Why can't we have nice things? Why does survival have to depend on a handful of dedicated experts? What's the meaning of novelty items and creating anything if trying to pursue them means being lectured by people who call you a griefer for doing so since it's "iron waste"?

We just want to play... create civilisations etc, but all this nerfing of water and iron sources just contradict this. You're not exactly being encouraged to experiment at all. If anything, it'll turn into some min-max simulator.

antking:]# · 2020-03-25 19:29:04

Well it's not that bad, Iron will be in a grid, so you know where Iron will be, and it was always odd that their were random chunks of Iron on the ground
https://edge.onetech.info/versions

fug · 2020-03-25 19:40:48

Yes, but you need three veins to crack open a single vein (unless you don't want to farm or have an axe.)

antking:]# · 2020-03-25 20:17:00

Silly Fug a vein now gives 4 iron before you need to pickaxe it
https://edge.onetech.info/942-Loose-Iro … 0-40-p3-p0

so you will be able to get the axe, shovel, hoe, and pickaxe form one vein

Twisted · 2020-03-25 20:19:26

antking:]# wrote:

Silly Fug a vein now gives 4 iron before you need to pickaxe it
https://edge.onetech.info/942-Loose-Iro … 0-40-p3-p0
so you will be able to get the axe, shovel, hoe, and pickaxe form one vein

Sure, you can get the pickaxe, but you also need a well kit which means you need eight ore minimum (plus one more if you want to make a shovel for the well and not starve).

Hammer, Chisel, Axe, File, Adze, Froe, Saw, Pickaxe, and one extra for the Shovel. 8+1, a total of 9, so three veins minimum.

Spoonwood · 2020-03-25 20:39:38

Voy,

This game got developed with an entitlement mentality that the game designer is entitled to know what players like you want better than what you say or that you're basically irrelevant.

You want to craft and build?

Well, consider this:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Now, if I could go back in a time machine, I don't know that I would have found an alternative structure for such a collaborative civilization game beyond crafting. There may be no better form for the game to take.
But there's no doubt, in my mind, that it turns people away from the game.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 825#p89825

See? It's decided a priori that you would be turned away from playing if you got what you say you want.

And you're just an outlier according to this:

jasonrohrer wrote:

I imagine that most of the people who want 2D solo crafting are playing Don't Starve already.
The only reason that OHOL has been a success is because it offers something different. For the people who want something different than the solo crafting that a a game like Don't Starve offers (or the flat, private multiplayer crafting of Don't Starve Together).

Oh... and a game, Don't Starve Together, that has what looks like hundreds of videos on Twitch in the past week, is flat in comparison, apparently, to a game that has 5 videos of it on Twitch this past week.

So what are we to believe? That people like you and myself don't know our own minds, and that the numbers about the quality of games are meaningless?

Yea, I think I know better than that, and so do you.

Anyways, maybe the above helps you understand why you can't have nice things.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-03-25 20:40:19)

pein · 2020-03-25 20:41:25

technically 7 iron to get a mine and the axe is one of it since you need 2 butt logs for a bucket

hammer
axe
chisel(can be recycled)
file
adze
froe
saw
pick

but if you don't have a shovel you don't have a well so you don't have a city to get iron to
and maybe a few veterans could do all this smithing while the kids survive on wild bushes
but even middle-skill players will need 2nd shovel and a hoe if all this happens too slow

the grid thing might make it easier, you can just go with a pack and get the iron or 3 people with baskets (one takes food, others get the iron then he takes the last 2 iron)

grid system looks bad on paper, since it reduces the randomness, ingame is still hard to navigate and 40x40 is quite a big chunk of the map so doesn't feel so generic so it might not be that bad

but my main issue is the iron tech on its own
compared to the water tech is quite simple and boring
the previous iron nerfs were making it even more boring
we would need higher iron usage, tech limiters and iron sinks, even convenience items, so people want to get a lot of iron
not just nerfing it so it's harder to find it, if you would have an intertwined system where iron tech can be an issue to be solved, equally important as water or even more important in some cases

my other problem is that you just need to find it and take it home and that's it
if you couldn't take it home but you would need to process it in place, it would give the badlands the industrial settlement feeling
that you have to stay near a mine and do some work on it, lead a road from the city to it
and the whole limited iron thing is kinda bad

I think the most fun way would be collecting a lot of rocks with a chance to contain some iron
processing them into iron ore or something else like flat rocks, clay or round stones or whatever
then even one more step to create iron from it
I guess the copper or bronze tools idea also made sense, having different tools before iron and unlocking each one by one
I wouldn't even mind if quarries would be a thing where you would need to mine out rocks and go deeper in order to get more iron for cost of working

it could have upgrades like the well does
the wells use a stanchion kit, which is 7 tools requirement and a rope, but generally, people do the prerequisites and even cut down trees, so you just need 2 branches and a rope and cut boards and disks, use adze, so 3 tool slots which can be re-used for cart making or fences

similar to it, I guess the first upgrade could be same stanchion kit, or maybe a lasso and a bucket
the second upgrade could be a mining cart, 3 tiles of rails and send in the cart to mine faster and more

some minigame like fishing where people need to interact with the mine to get results so work would be more important

third upgrade could be an elevator shaft which would be a building around the mine and a few ropes maybe metal cable and a Newcomen omega drill

honestly, I enjoyed the randomness of veins, once I saw 9 in the same biome, a lot of time you only had one in 120 tiles, but sometimes 3 next to the city
honestly, it made cities a bit more unique, having low, medium or high iron quantities

I like the researching of tiles in some games, like surviving mars, where you need to discover the iron fields first
later rescanning for deep mines and get technology to mine those, kinda refreshes the map and gives you a new strategic goal

but the most enjoyable was knights and merchants where you had mountains and the workers were actually flattening the map while they were mining out resources, so basically the mountains disappeared over time, that could be sweet, but we don't have the engine for that
maybe some visual high grounds could be made than items with several transitions to go down and be joined together according to other items near its vicinity, also these mountains could limit movement until removed and we could have some cool map parts limited by them

so yeah, making the map even more generic doesn't add much to the game, and the iron tech would need some twists to it where you want to produce more and that production would be needed for logical gameplay reasons and limit tech levels the same time

Last edited by pein (2020-03-25 20:45:46)

Coconut Fruit · 2020-03-25 20:42:03

Or you can go to a bigger town, take a few buckets (and a cart and a few other useful things) and go back home.

Even tho it's not really cool doing this, it is the best way to start a town. Just go steal some stuff from other towns, they won't really care.

Ilka · 2020-03-25 21:07:26

Jeez, when does Jason finally ADD something cool?
Last year is a constant limitation of what was.
I liked the bucket with dung - something useful and harmless at last.

jasonrohrer · 2020-03-25 21:31:08

There is currently more iron on the map, with the placement of the veins, than there ever was before, with the loose iron on the ground.

One sample showed 51 veins within a 1-minute walk (on foot) from a town. Those veins have 4 loose iron each, so 254 loose iron within a 1-minute walk from town.

You will have no trouble harvesting the 9 (or however much) iron needed to bootstrap mining.

If anything, bootstrapping a town's iron needs will be much less tedious than before, because finding the iron (by following ley lines) will involve much less random wandering around.

What changes is what happens AFTER bootstrapping.

Rope mines still produce 21 iron on average, but each piece produced is hungry work.

Elsayal · 2020-03-25 21:43:11

jasonrohrer wrote:

There is currently more iron on the map, with the placement of the veins, than there ever was before, with the loose iron on the ground.
One sample showed 51 veins within a 1-minute walk (on foot) from a town. Those veins have 4 loose iron each, so 254 loose iron within a 1-minute walk from town.
You will have no trouble harvesting the 9 (or however much) iron needed to bootstrap mining.
If anything, bootstrapping a town's iron needs will be much less tedious than before, because finding the iron (by following ley lines) will involve much less random wandering around.
What changes is what happens AFTER bootstrapping.
Rope mines still produce 21 iron on average, but each piece produced is hungry work.

It's nice, combined with the animal attack debugged

Spoonwood · 2020-03-25 21:49:06

jasonrohrer wrote:

Rope mines still produce 21 iron on average, but each piece produced is hungry work.

That implies more time spent gathering food or cooking and processing food. In other words, doing something to maintain one's state of existence.

The original post talked about creating civilization, not about maintaining one's existence.

There have been updates before that focused on player's maintaining things more and creating less.

A sandbox game focused more and more on maintainence, not creativity.

Who would play a sandbox game just to have one's character and other characters exist in it?

Spoonwood · 2020-03-25 21:51:14

Elsayal wrote:

It's nice, combined with the animal attack debugged

Do you ever voluntarily stop playing a life after you've started it?

Morti · 2020-03-25 22:26:40

pein wrote:

but the most enjoyable was knights and merchants where you had mountains and the workers were actually flattening the map while they were mining out resources, so basically the mountains disappeared over time, that could be sweet, but we don't have the engine for that
maybe some visual high grounds could be made than items with several transitions to go down and be joined together according to other items near its vicinity, also these mountains could limit movement until removed and we could have some cool map parts limited by them

Rimworld does the 3D feel of a mountain in a way that could be possible in this engine. Badlands could have large chunks of areas that cannot be traversed; obstructions that could be worked with mining pick. When those obstructions are removed, they could have a % chance to yield piles of iron, stones, flat rocks, limestone or even gold. From above, it could be more obvious, where the mountain tiles with more iron, or other resources are, and we could have to decide on paths to dig into the mountains to get them.

In this picture I use stone wall as an example, but a truly mountainous area would be generated, like the tundras, jungles and deserts, inside the badlands biome, and be a solid obstruction that people could not just walk through.

Maybe the plain ones have low chances for any sort of resource, but the ones that have different colors, have larger chances. High gold chance doesn't necessarily mean a guarantee of gold, it could either give a 70% and they be rare, or a 7% chance, and they be 10 times more common than at 70%.

But the amount of gold, or any other resource, available on the map, could still be made statistically comparable to what we have now, with iron perhaps being a little more common, to account for a steady use of pickaxes.

Even caves could be naturally generated, when the map makes the mountain biome into a weird shape, and a door could be placed, allowing the cave to be used as a natural home to keep in warmth, if the mountain tiles acted like stone walls, reflecting heat.

Imagine all of these tundra tiles are mountain tiles, and a pine door can quickly be put up in the northern entrance.

pein · 2020-03-25 23:27:14

I liked battle for the Wesnoth approach, just a few presets on different elevations, the game automatically takes care of the mashups (used to be forced tile mashing presets I think)

file.php?id=68567&mode=view

Jason does similar things with mashing biomes together

That game is also open source and every year a lot of people do school research projects on it, like better pathfinding and AI or map changes, I don't follow it now but their forum was huge.

their caves also looked good, I guess we can't have levels or underground but if it's part of the map or teleports us like aeroplanes that's fine

Or maybe age 2 is even more similar square based map

the rift edges are blocking and also look like higher elevations, sure it's isometric so looks better but I think would be possible in 2d normal.

I guess just having non-passable or slowing effect, some double borders and 3-4 height levels would do fine.

Morti, I'm thinking off more like collecting those mixed rocks then processing would take longer, like cut apart 2-3x or get better transporting system like cranes into mien carts, maybe a few tech gates so early on it would be a lot of side products like waste rocks but later you could make bricks out of it when you got the tech and resources. Ofc that would need some power tech or a level where water not an issue and that could be used to make it.
Like wells would have a solid output per time, lower max but higher recharge, and storing would be harder. Then with tech advancements, you could make pipes to use some of it to process the waste rocks or greenhouses or something.

Morti · 2020-03-26 07:40:51

pein wrote:

Morti, I'm thinking

I like brainstorming like this, and there is always the chance that Jason might add something that we suggest, as he has done many times for both of us, but, I don't like investing too much thought into wishing that other people did things for me.

Maybe if it was clearer that Jason wanted our input, I'd be more willing to give it, but as is... I'm just going to keep playing as long as I enjoy what I'm doing.

I'm glad you and spoonwood and destiny and all the others like to chat so much in the forums, but, this is even less real to me than the game, being here.

I'm sorry we've struggled to be good friends and I wish you the best in everything you do, pein.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2020-03-25 18:56:28

More iron nerfing coming next update...

#2 2020-03-25 19:29:04

Re: More iron nerfing coming next update...

#3 2020-03-25 19:40:48

Re: More iron nerfing coming next update...

#4 2020-03-25 20:17:00

Re: More iron nerfing coming next update...

#5 2020-03-25 20:19:26

Re: More iron nerfing coming next update...

#6 2020-03-25 20:39:38

Re: More iron nerfing coming next update...

#7 2020-03-25 20:41:25

Re: More iron nerfing coming next update...

#8 2020-03-25 20:42:03

Re: More iron nerfing coming next update...

#9 2020-03-25 21:07:26

Re: More iron nerfing coming next update...

#10 2020-03-25 21:31:08

Re: More iron nerfing coming next update...

#11 2020-03-25 21:43:11

Re: More iron nerfing coming next update...

#12 2020-03-25 21:49:06

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#13 2020-03-25 21:51:14

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#14 2020-03-25 22:26:40

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#15 2020-03-25 23:27:14

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#16 2020-03-26 07:40:51

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