Solutions to stagnation?

JasonY · 2019-12-08 03:48:37

It's harder to actually reach the End-Game but once you do gameplay becomes repetitive. Pretty much the only challenge is having to dig oil over and over and killing the same griefers again and again.

In the early game, It's easy enough to progress once you the foundations set up. Then it's kind of luck-based whether you find the right people to help you progress to steam power. Then you have some time to expand the town and hopefully attract all three races into one town.

But for all the work building a capital city, You just get awarded with stagnation. The only real concern is the occasional oil crisis or minor conflicts. You have plenty of supplies to sustain yourself and everyone else for the entire hour.

So how do we keep the players on their toes once they reach the end?

Spoonwood · 2019-12-08 03:55:41

I'll suggest that you try making a radio, forging gold, getting a camera up and running, or making an artistic type of structure. Or make the town so that it has EVERY single food type in it. It's only repetitive, because you've locked your mind onto doing something useful. If you can expand your mind to consider doing creative things, there probably is more to do in late game towns than you might expect at first glance.

Also, having lots of different food types around can be useful.

And there's more time to teach newer players all the things the game has to offer. It's not a small number of things. You wouldn't succeed in teaching new players everything in a life. No one has that capability.

Legs · 2019-12-08 04:02:59

High tech towns give you the luxury to do what you -want- to do rather than what you *have* to do. That's why I like them. Have you ever made or even eaten ice cream? Maybe now's the time! Want to learn newcomen smithing or the diesel engine? It's a great chance. Breed dogs, plant trees, make an igloo. Have fun with the nice town you were lucky to be born into.

With this awful world of tool slots and family specialization big towns are more fragile than ever. More families mean more people since spawns are distributed by family. They get crowded fast. That means more griefers, more berrymunchers and more murders. A doctor in the current diesel bell town will never want for patients. Same goes for any other profession. Even if you have a diesel pump well the hecking carrots are all gone because of munchers. Suddenly the town is 'bootstrapped' back down to eve levels of agriculture since soil and clothing also becomes locked thru the shepherding process.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-08 04:38:37

Legs wrote:

High tech towns give you the luxury to do what you -want- to do rather than what you *have* to do. That's why I like them. Have you ever made or even eaten ice cream? Maybe now's the time! Want to learn newcomen smithing or the diesel engine? It's a great chance. Breed dogs, plant trees, make an igloo. Have fun with the nice town you were lucky to be born into.

Unfortunately, there exists a problem with breeding dogs, and thus they might be best avoided until the family doesn't have fertile females or young girls left.

Other than that, absolutely. Good suggestions.

Ruben · 2019-12-08 06:46:19

JasonY wrote:

So how do we keep the players on their toes once they reach the end?

You really need to stop calling the beginning the end.
I don't find playing in megacities repetitive at all. It's like people are so used to village life that they cant handle the complex endgame.

'It's meaningless', I hear them say all the time (I do not comprehend this).

Gomez · 2019-12-08 07:07:30

Some people enjoy the struggle once the "leisure life" is achieved their usefulness has lapsed and it becomes mine craft. Some people are pioneers and other people are city slickers.

Last edited by Gomez (2019-12-08 07:08:31)

Toxolotl · 2019-12-08 07:10:00

Ruben wrote:

You really need to stop calling the beginning the end.
I don't find playing in megacities repetitive at all. It's like people are so used to village life that they cant handle the complex endgame.
'It's meaningless', I hear them say all the time (I do not comprehend this).

I agree. An easy way to fix stagnation or make the current endgame the beginning of something epic is to extend the tech tree. Make it huge! Stuff like rockets, phones, gps, binoculars, railroads, advanced cars, computers, electricity, air conditioning, furnaces, electronic lathe drill bore hammer roller, several tiers of generators and much more. About a year ago, a youtube video made by Jason gave the impression that 10,000 craftable items would be available in game. Today we sit at about 2225.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-08 07:50:29

Toxolotl wrote:

Ruben wrote:
You really need to stop calling the beginning the end.
I don't find playing in megacities repetitive at all. It's like people are so used to village life that they cant handle the complex endgame.
'It's meaningless', I hear them say all the time (I do not comprehend this).
I agree. An easy way to fix stagnation or make the current endgame the beginning of something epic is to extend the tech tree. Make it huge! Stuff like rockets, phones, gps, binoculars, railroads, advanced cars, computers, electricity, air conditioning, furnaces, electronic lathe drill bore hammer roller, several tiers of generators and much more. About a year ago, a youtube video made by Jason gave the impression that 10,000 craftable items would be available in game. Today we sit at about 2225.

More like two years ago now. But, Jason works solo and in my opinion tends to bite off more than he can chew. Also, that's probably several weeks if not months of content even if Jason had a small staff working for him, I think. So, not so easy in practice... though easy in concept I suppose.

JasonY · 2019-12-08 08:56:09

Ruben wrote:

JasonY wrote:
So how do we keep the players on their toes once they reach the end?
You really need to stop calling the beginning the end.
I don't find playing in megacities repetitive at all. It's like people are so used to village life that they cant handle the complex endgame.
'It's meaningless', I hear them say all the time (I do not comprehend this).

Okay then smart guy, What's your average life in a mega-city look like?

Last edited by JasonY (2019-12-08 08:59:58)

JasonY · 2019-12-08 09:14:06

Toxolotl wrote:

Ruben wrote:
You really need to stop calling the beginning the end.
I don't find playing in megacities repetitive at all. It's like people are so used to village life that they cant handle the complex endgame.
'It's meaningless', I hear them say all the time (I do not comprehend this).
I agree. An easy way to fix stagnation or make the current endgame the beginning of something epic is to extend the tech tree. Make it huge! Stuff like rockets, phones, gps, binoculars, railroads, advanced cars, computers, electricity, air conditioning, furnaces, electronic lathe drill bore hammer roller, several tiers of generators and much more. About a year ago, a youtube video made by Jason gave the impression that 10,000 craftable items would be available in game. Today we sit at about 2225.

I agree, Bigger and better projects to work on.

But Ruben probably spends the first 20 minutes scavenging for clothes, Then another 20 dressing babies and then final 20 minutes dressing grandkids and eating. A megacity isn't any more complex than a budding eve camp, they both need the same things. Food, Water and babies.

jcwilk · 2019-12-08 09:36:40

JasonY wrote:

Toxolotl wrote:
Ruben wrote:
You really need to stop calling the beginning the end.
I don't find playing in megacities repetitive at all. It's like people are so used to village life that they cant handle the complex endgame.
'It's meaningless', I hear them say all the time (I do not comprehend this).
I agree. An easy way to fix stagnation or make the current endgame the beginning of something epic is to extend the tech tree. Make it huge! Stuff like rockets, phones, gps, binoculars, railroads, advanced cars, computers, electricity, air conditioning, furnaces, electronic lathe drill bore hammer roller, several tiers of generators and much more. About a year ago, a youtube video made by Jason gave the impression that 10,000 craftable items would be available in game. Today we sit at about 2225.

I agree, Bigger and better projects to work on.

But Ruben probably spends the first 20 minutes scavenging for clothes, Then another 20 dressing babies and then final 20 minutes dressing grandkids and eating. A megacity isn't any more complex than a budding eve camp, they both need the same things. Food, Water and babies.

Yeah... I'm kind of with Jason on his approach to work on mechanics first, if he just added a bunch of stuff then people would go ahead and build a bunch of that stuff and then the bell towns would all have those things and it would be briefly visually novel but gameplay-wise probably 90% unchanged for a MASSIVE amount of dev/drawing time from him. I remember him mentioning somewhere that he was avoiding turning OHOL into a "networking" game like how castle doctrine was with complex minecraft-like circuits since the programming for that in an infinite map is prohibitively complex, but I think that -some- kind of networking behavior is going to be necessary to really make this game shine, but he'll likely have to keep experimenting to figure out exactly what's needed so he can figure out an approachable way to tackle it. But yeah we still haven't gotten trade to be a thing, and without trade it's just real tough to get interesting endgame dynamics going imo... And/or, a reason to raid/defend aside from for out-of-character reasons.

Toxolotl · 2019-12-08 10:20:42

jcwilk wrote:

JasonY wrote:
Toxolotl wrote:
I agree. An easy way to fix stagnation or make the current endgame the beginning of something epic is to extend the tech tree. Make it huge! Stuff like rockets, phones, gps, binoculars, railroads, advanced cars, computers, electricity, air conditioning, furnaces, electronic lathe drill bore hammer roller, several tiers of generators and much more. About a year ago, a youtube video made by Jason gave the impression that 10,000 craftable items would be available in game. Today we sit at about 2225.

I agree, Bigger and better projects to work on.

But Ruben probably spends the first 20 minutes scavenging for clothes, Then another 20 dressing babies and then final 20 minutes dressing grandkids and eating. A megacity isn't any more complex than a budding eve camp, they both need the same things. Food, Water and babies.
Yeah... I'm kind of with Jason on his approach to work on mechanics first, if he just added a bunch of stuff then people would go ahead and build a bunch of that stuff and then the bell towns would all have those things and it would be briefly visually novel but gameplay-wise probably 90% unchanged for a MASSIVE amount of dev/drawing time from him. I remember him mentioning somewhere that he was avoiding turning OHOL into a "networking" game like how castle doctrine was with complex minecraft-like circuits since the programming for that in an infinite map is prohibitively complex, but I think that -some- kind of networking behavior is going to be necessary to really make this game shine, but he'll likely have to keep experimenting to figure out exactly what's needed so he can figure out an approachable way to tackle it. But yeah we still haven't gotten trade to be a thing, and without trade it's just real tough to get interesting endgame dynamics going imo... And/or, a reason to raid/defend aside from for out-of-character reasons.

How does trade have anything to do with that? I did not mention anything that would require a grid network besides maybe the upgraded lathe, bore, drill, hammer, and roller. That could work just like the current newcomen engine except it would be a diesel engine instead. Likely moveable like the mining engine is. Atomic power has been hinted but that would likely be late game.

In terms of gps and phones. The idea would be to launch satellites using the aforementioned rockets. This would likely be super late game. I would not expect updates like this to be done quickly. I could see the amount of craftable items doubling just by implementing the items on that list.

Too much time has been wasted on efforts to slow players down in their progression of the current tech tree. Its time to shine the light forward and step into the darkness of the unknown.

What mechanics are you talking about jcwilk? Tool slots, meme score, and race restrictions? Im fine with fixing mechanical issues and bugs but in general my game runs fine. My experience doesnt run as smoothly though. Since tool slots, meme score weight, biome restrictions, and pumping restrictions the game has become more repetitive than ever.

Simple answer is that those things dont belong and restrictions should remain exclusively function based. I have legs so i can walk into jungle, i have arms so i can pick banana... oh wait im not brown nvm. Like wtf, is a system like that really going to promote trade?

Do tool slots really make sense for a game like this? Someone could learn more tools in a quarter of their lifetime than they could ever learn in game. Oh and this is all based on gene score, makes total sense. Who doesnt want an arbitrary system governing their quality of life..

The game would be a lot further along and a whole lot more dynamic if these things had never been implemented. Instead of actually progressing the tech tree we see these disaster updates that will likely take months to fix or ultimately be removed.. like the rift.

"I hope you see a pattern here. The quality of the update in terms of long-term positive impact on the game is inversely proportional to the number of negative reviews."

In communist ohol trade trades you

Last edited by Toxolotl (2019-12-08 10:27:54)

jcwilk · 2019-12-08 13:55:40

Toxolotl wrote:

How does trade have anything to do with that?
In terms of gps and phones. The idea would be to launch satellites using the aforementioned rockets. This would likely be super late game. I would not expect updates like this to be done quickly. I could see the amount of craftable items doubling just by implementing the items on that list.
What mechanics are you talking about jcwilk? Tool slots, meme score, and race restrictions? Im fine with fixing mechanical issues and bugs but in general my game runs fine. My experience doesnt run as smoothly though. Since tool slots, meme score weight, biome restrictions, and pumping restrictions the game has become more repetitive than ever.

Yeah, mechanics as in things that wouldn't just be new items. They might involve new items but more out of utility than out of trying to have a large catalog of items. Satellite type stuff is kind of more towards a mechanic (satellite imagery, infinite distance communication, whatever) in the way I mean it in this context, as compared to new more complex foods or faster/stronger/better/cuter whatevers which likely have only very minimal fundamental game mechanics involved and are just items in the catalog.

I agree that his attempts to get trade going have entirely fallen flat, I'm not saying I love the changes he made, however I agree with the direction of trying to make one group of players want something the other group of players has and organically resultant tension arising from that. I don't myself know how to achieve that, seems like he doesn't either, so experimentation makes sense. Not sure if -those- experiments make sense, but what do I know.

I think the foreign babel was a good move though, it seems to help solidify the sense of "us" in the "us vs them" dynamic that's necessary for that kind of tension.

The race specialization makes some amount of sense, like I agree it fuels the "need" of trading, however it does nothing to fuel the "can" of trading... like the process of trading itself just doesn't make any sense in the game as-is.

IMO the missing link is two things:

1. Property - Property fences work pretty well if you really, really want them to, but too few people know how they work and fewer still give a shit about them. I'm not sure what the solution is, but it seems like it needs to be more accessible to players (in a figurative sense) ideally with little to no property management required by most of the people who use it. Even having to open and close the door and keep it closed most of the time etc is just way too much for new players. Maybe the doors just let owners through without opening? I'm not sure, and there's griefing implications too of course, though property fences are mostly used by griefers as is so not much to lose there by further adjustments. And, of course, foreign traders/diplomats need to be able to interact still with residents of the property which can kinda sorta not really be done with property fences but again, something that is more straightforward rather than requiring excessive creativity to be able to trade at all is really needed.

2. Too damn far - This one's tricky and multifaceted, like is the solution to tweak things so that families end up being less far apart? Or is it to tweak things so that great distances can be traveled, or at least that items can travel great distances? Bit of both probably? Maybe even massive caravans that can carry a ton of shit so that it's actually worth the effort.

Both of those problems kind of strongly demand "unnatural" solutions that break the theme, but realplay trading and raiding actually being a thing in OHOL would so be worth it IMO

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-08 14:00:21)

Elsayal · 2019-12-08 14:17:43

Something else is keeping ppl for trading : it's easier to gather all communities in the same town, so you never trade.
What about an impossibility to stay in another town ?
Maybe all babies born where there is at least another tribe member within < 100 meter should be only blonde or brune type.

Bowser · 2019-12-08 15:20:15

A good question. I can't answer it because I've never been in a society that has survived long enough to make cars, planes, etc. (I have been playing about two weeks)

I'm of the apparently popular opinion that family specialties does not help and just makes it hard for people to get by... even at mid-level technology because of how critical rubber is. And anything at endgame is almost impossible unless you get a lot of oil going... and have gingers doing it all.

Maybe the issue is not stagnation, but rather running out of things to do. Maybe we need more things that are fun for developed towns to enjoy instead of "I'm bored, let's stab someone lolol" which is usually how it plays out in bell towns. I saw a suggestion a few days ago for sports; that's pretty cool. I'm sure we could do even more. Maintenance mode cities are boring because you could literally do nothing and the town wouldn't hurt for it. So, we need more ways for people to kill time ... instead of other players, or reward civilizations that branch out further still, giving highly effective tools that cost a higher amount of work to keep going, but are substantially more effective.

But I don't want to make direct suggestions here. I'm still a little bit new and my views are a bit biased by my own experiences. Furthermore, I haven't experienced a thriving endgame town yet where cars are commonly used (or used at all), let alone planes. With the current family trading system going on and the incredible amount of griefing (ending a lot of these 'specialty' families), I really don't think hitting that tier is really possible anymore anyways.

pein · 2019-12-08 22:46:24

tool slots just make me suicide which I haven't really done that before

we got some high tech stuff like grapes, photo and other things, but so hard to tell people to work in your own family, not even talking about others
like 5 gingers ignored e totally, they read the note I wrote and still until I found someone to care enough to do the oil part

Bowser · 2019-12-08 22:57:26

pein wrote:

tool slots just make me suicide which I haven't really done that before
we got some high tech stuff like grapes, photo and other things, but so hard to tell people to work in your own family, not even talking about others
like 5 gingers ignored e totally, they read the note I wrote and still until I found someone to care enough to do the oil part

I can tolerate a tool slot limit, but it's way too low by default, and some tools just don't make sense.

I cannot fathom why stone hatchet and axes are different tool slots (or why hatchets count as tools at all, really). I cannot imagine why charcoal pencils count as tools, either. I didn't realize they were until today when I went to sign a notice to knock down a fence a griefer put up.... only to find I couldn't do it because I used up my very limited tool slots.

Aside from endgame crafting where tons of tools are required and lots of specializations are used, these tool slots only seem to exist to prevent you from managing a town. Several times since the reset I've been in towns that direly needed help in multiple areas, and I felt completely helpless because I could only use six tools... and everything counts as a tool. People aren't farming, people aren't baking, people arent shearing the sheep, no one knows how to smith... I want to help but there's only so much I can do because of the tool slot limitations. And this says nothing of being an Eve, I pity any Eve (or second gen) who can't further their very basic town because of a cheesy tool slot limitation.

I think tool slots should only exist for high tech, or at least mid tech development, or should have a great deal of slots (at least 10) available by default so players don't feel useless. Alternatively, make it so tools are you ineffective with drain hunger or have some other detrimental effect that doesn't make you feel utterly useless. But hey, that's just me.

voy178 · 2019-12-09 00:02:36

Bowser wrote:

snip

First one with the hatchets and axes bewilders me too, but the second with pencil actually makes sense in some ways. It represents the written language. Are you a smarty write-y or not?

I rarely use up all my slots in a-life, unless I'm carrying a village on my back making everything. New players do not use up their slots either. When you claim people aren't doing anything, it might just be because they just can't or don't realise how important it is to be doing right now. There are a lot of new players in this game.

Legs · 2019-12-09 01:17:38

The tool slot system is a crappy gimmick that everyone hates, there's no doubt about that. Same with family specialization. It's his way of updating without doing any real work to add content.

Earlier today I was exploring and finding nothing but dead towns as usual. Decided to settle in and repopulate with my children. The town's only fire died because I couldn't kindle hot coals. Apparently adding kindling to restore a fireplace counts as using the hot coals tool slot. This system is beyond stupid.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-09 02:16:20

Legs wrote:

The tool slot system is a crappy gimmick that everyone hates, there's no doubt about that.

I've seen people say that they have warmed up to... I think Sigmen said that if no one else has. Twisted liked it at the start, don't know if he still does. I don't think there's a trend of people disliking tool slots more and more.... though some of the problems like the hot coals one seem to get discussed more and more. There's no way that thing is balanced, and Jason always trying to do 16 different things when the first 4 aren't even well developed, that doesn't help. Assuming, tool slots can meaningfully get made better, which does seem open to question.

I saw some people change their mind about family specialization the first few days it came out... however it seems that now those people are silent and might have changed their mind to hating it. It does seem like family specialization has gotten less and less liked by people. I also don't think it's like tool slots that can theoretically have benefits for new players (whether or not tool slots is doing that, I have no read on whatsoever).

Legs · 2019-12-09 02:25:20

New players know how to do one thing, or maybe two things. "I can make pie!" is something that a passionate new player might say. Most people never use even the very limited noob tool slots. It's strictly a measure to handcuff better players so they can't keep towns alive by themselves. Same as the specialization update. In practice it dooms virtually all towns through rng. If you can't do everything in this game you can't do anything.

pein · 2019-12-09 06:20:55

twisted plants 9 potatoes in a lifetime and or 25 min can't make a shovel
ofc he likes it
asking noobs to drill, till, rekindling and file kinda works but 20 sec Newcomen tools won't, hell, explaining to a ginger to make the oil with all the tools available took me 15 min and running around with a note, ignored by most of them

and since battle and healing should really be an option all the time, it shouldn't use slots, maybe choose bow or knife for an extra slot which can't be used for anything else, but since healing uses 3-4 slots is kinda half of your productivity
you can make clothes with needle and thread, but a good healer should be able to shear, use hot coals for water, make pad, use hot knife, even attack if needed, and lets be fair, you don't need any of it until you need it and it's intention-based bullshittery, you should really be able to counteract griefers who don't care to use 2 slots for 2 weapons

Bowser · 2019-12-09 07:53:32

Legs wrote:

The tool slot system is a crappy gimmick that everyone hates, there's no doubt about that. Same with family specialization. It's his way of updating without doing any real work to add content.
Earlier today I was exploring and finding nothing but dead towns as usual. Decided to settle in and repopulate with my children. The town's only fire died because I couldn't kindle hot coals. Apparently adding kindling to restore a fireplace counts as using the hot coals tool slot. This system is beyond stupid.

I noticed this the other day. Ironically adding Kindling to a mid-sized fire does not count as a tool slot. Go figure. Why low tech 'tools' like this even exist in the first place are a mystery...

Spoonwood · 2019-12-09 09:39:52

pein wrote:

you can make clothes with needle and thread

Yeah... clothes needing tool slots doesn't really seem to dovetail with clothed villages. I remember trying to throw clogs at the feet of people a few lives long ago and eventually gave up on it, because enough of them didn't seem to take the hint. Some would, some wouldn't, but it just seemed too chancy in the end.

Bowser wrote:

Ironically adding Kindling to a mid-sized fire does not count as a tool slot. Go figure.

Strange that the dumbest use of kindling kind of gets encouraged by the game, isn't it?

voy178 · 2019-12-09 12:23:20

I like tool slots. OFC you shouldn't be able to do all the things in the game. Some tool slots might be nonsensical and could use tweaking, but it's still important to note that this is a cooperative game, not a single-player game.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-12-08 03:48:37

Solutions to stagnation?

#2 2019-12-08 03:55:41

Re: Solutions to stagnation?

#3 2019-12-08 04:02:59

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