Let's make Genes actualy mean something.

miskas · 2019-11-08 14:03:50

As you might know, Gene's mater, IQ heritability, for example, is between 57% and 86%.

How could we implement gene inheritability without Harming the player Skill/rank ladder?
We need a way to implement this that would make sure one can start from the lowest rank and go up to 1st.
Also, we have to make it noob friendly. noobs need good and caring players to keep them alive.

First, we need an extra Value.
Personal lifespan = the average lifespan of your last 3 lives

1: You give birth to children based on your Gene score and your BB Ave. Lifespan.
Rule: The Absolute difference between your Gene score and BB Ave. lifespan has to be lower than 25
|BB Ave. Lifespan - Gene score| < 25

consequently,
2: You get born to mothers that your Ave. Lifespan. differs up to 25 scores.
If your Ave. lifespan is 20 you get born to mothers from 0 gene score to 45.
If it is 5 from 0 to 30

This will prevent lower-ranking players to give birth to extremely Skilled players and vice versa but allowing them to be born on an average player. This will make sure that one can not be forever stuck in a low skilled mom or high skilled moms.

Let's take an extreme paradigm to test it.
A player starts with Gene scores 0 and lifespan 0.
And let's say he gets unlucky with Mother Gene as well.
-gets born to a 5 score mother and lives to 4
-gets born to a 0 score mother and abandon.
-gets born to a 10 score mother and lives to 8.
Lifespan= 4
-next life rolls normally and born to a 15 score (~50% of 4+25=29) mother and lives to 15
Lifespan= 7.6 new mom gene limit 32.6
as long as he keeps having average rolls mother and be a co-operative bb mother will curry him up.

And these 4 test Rolls assumed equal distribution, In-game currently we always have Normal distribution

Meaning if you are low it is more likely to have a mother with Average score than a low one.
(Jason run some cool probability test to test this theory, I really love these )

3: if there is not a mother inside your gene limit, just born to a mother close to its upper limit.
( I skew this for ladder climb reasons never gonna happen anyway)

What about the noobs?

4: As long as you are considered a noob your Ave. lifespan is 60. This will make sure noobs get to be born to the best portion of players to have the best chances to learn the game. When the Noob Period stops. Average life span Value starts ticking and you are free to move through the skill ladder.

Positives :
A player that has a Low gene score though, its own /dies, abandon bbs, doesn't care for them, plays solo AND die young will be less fertile.

This means 2 things
1st people that don't care and play solo won't be a pain in the ass for the other that care, know how to survive. If you live to 60 you are getting sure that your next mother will not abandon you. And if you like to play solo, you will be playing solo.

2nd and more important. If you are a player that doesn't know the game and has low survivability thus low score. This will make sure he won't be burden with raising many children. He will have more time to focus on his own survival. He will also Alway have a more positive gene score from Grandmother and mother and less negative score from his BBs. Meaning that as long he manages to Survive more, his Gene score will go UP.

Next one. People at the higher rank with more skill slots more survivability, That are pros in-game will have BBs that know what they are doing.
That means that they will have More time to Work, more time to do things for their Village more time to get focused on personal projects. AND the most important will have high survivability kids to help them and also inherit their work!

So we have a mechanic that helps solo players, helps high gene players, helps low survivability players and also helps noobs.

Last edited by miskas (2019-11-08 14:19:45)

wondible · 2019-11-08 14:40:59

miskas wrote:

4: As long as you are considered a noob your Ave. lifespan is 60. This will make sure noobs get to be born to the best portion of players to have the best chances to learn the game. When the Noob Period stops. Average life span Value starts ticking and you are free to move through the skill ladder.

Bootstrap the value at 60 and let it adjust from there. It just has to be a hidden value, because Jason wants to make sure your score only goes up at first.

miskas · 2019-11-08 16:02:40

I would say just keep the Ave.lifespan hidden, people don't need to know it.
And yes bootstrap it to 60. I would also hold it to 60 for the whole new player period.

Starknight_One · 2019-11-08 18:09:23

I was thinking something along the lines of breaking out various aspects of play - i.e., things that satisfy different 'itches' on the gamer psychology side - and making them individual gene scores. Like so:

1) Longevity gene - personal (+ ancestors) age of death, weighted by family distance over 3-5 generations
2) Family gene - current meme score but only based on descendants/cousins, weighted by family distance
3) Altruism gene - survival of nearby peaceful non-family, like 2 but for all others 'nearby'
4) Capability gene - crafting done, influenced by number of different activities tried and objects produced
5) Fitness gene - Yum and eating habits score, higher scores from more Yum/food variety. Berrimunchers tank here.
6) Socialization gene - social interaction system score (i.e., weighted good/bad votes you've received from other players). More on SIS later.
7) Violence gene - kills + deaths ... maybe inverted? more violence = lower score? Or could just be used as a negative factor, there are bad genes...
8) Exploration gene - tiles seen, maybe bonuses for meeting new families and learning language?

Different gene scores could influence different gameplay aspects - Fitness could extend life (like current genetic fitness), while Capability could influence tool slots (or other skill-limiting mechanic). Or multiple genes could be used as determiners, like the mean of Longevity/Family/Capability could be used to determine Eve status.

The reason I think a system like this would help is that different types of gamers want different things from the game (any game). This helps to give all of them things to do. Achievers can point to their ability to survive, raise a family, or whatever they want to achieve (though it might be hard to get high scores in all areas). Explorers can literally get rewarded for exploring the map, or the tech tree. Socializers get rewards for being social (although doing a few other things than chatting would help, too). Killers get to at least point to one thing they do well, I guess? I only adopt that play style in games where it's appropriate, and it's not often appropriate in OHOL.

We could call the mean (or the sum, doesn't really matter) of all 8 genetic scores your overall Genetic Fitness. Then you can drill down to find your individual scores, and the things affecting it. This will help people to fine-tune their play to improve the scores that are important to them, increasing player satisfaction and (hopefully) retention. Keep the current system of fake names for genetic scores; if someone wants to out themselves, they can do so and others can look at their scores too. This can let you find people whose play-style complements or matches yours, or avoid those who focus on things you don't think are important.

Social Interaction System: I've pointed this out before. Our avatars 'live' at a rate a half-million times faster than we do. With our limited communication in-game, it's like everyone is only able to speak a dozen words or so a year. So a system where we can (non-verbally) acknowledge good and bad actions - even if it's only visible to the individual player - makes sense, as a sort of short-cut for the missing elements of time to communicate, body language, and inflection that we completely miss out on through this medium.

The basic idea is similar to the existing 'curse' or 'exile' token, but instead of only having one, a player would be able to accumulate a total of 13. (I like the number, okay?) 8 of these would be granted on the basis of age lived to by your characters - each 15 minutes of age, you'd get a token. Eves thus would get one by living for a minute, but I don't see that as a flaw. The other 5 possible would be gifted to you by other players. These would be spent last - good opinions linger, while your simple presence gets taken for granted.

What can these points do?

CURSE - 7 SIPs allow you to curse a member of your family, or a family you are at peace with. 13 are required to curse someone with whom your family is at war. This causes them to lose a fair amount of Socialization, as well as area-banning them from being near you for 7 days.

HIGHFIVE - 5 SIPs are spent, and the target gains a SIP. The target gains a moderate amount of Socialization.

FACEPALM - 5 SIPs are spent. The target loses a moderate amount of Socialization.

NOD - 3 SIPs are spent. The target gains a small amount of Socialization.

SHUN - 3 SIPs are spent. The target loses a small amount of Socialization.

THUMBSUP - 1 SIP is spent. The target gains a tiny amount of Socialization.

THUMBSDOWN - 1 SIP is spent. The target loses a tiny amount of Socialization.

Other ways could exist for spending (and possibly earning) SIPs, but this is the basis of the idea. Socialization score adjustments may have to be made ELO fashion to prevent griefers from killing scores with their SIPs, but it's not an unlimited resource... the damage should be containable in the long run. And it would give Killer players an outlet...

Toxolotl · 2019-11-08 19:42:32

I really like the idea of increasing or decreasing spawn rates dependent on score. I dont think that high score players should have an advantage on lower score players though.

Are you proposing that the top 25% exclusively spawn to each other? It shouldnt be easy to keep a high score and in fact i think it should get harder and harder the closer you get to the top.

I understand the increments get smaller and smaller as your score gets higher but if the top genetically fit players are always together, isnt that just going to make things super easy and lock out the rest from spawning reliable kids? If they are truly the most highly skilled mothers it shouldn't be an issue to manage new players.

I understand not wanting players who abuse the system or will tear down your score. So perhaps there is some kind of grace period. New players with under 20-30 hours and a low score would spawn to the most highly scored mothers available, but not the other way around. Perhaps after that grace period its just random.

I really dont like the idea of making it harder for lower score players to raise their score and making it easier for higher score players to gain and keep theirs. I think keeping the pros with the pros and the riff-raff with the riff-raff could do that.

One of my favorite things about this game is that you can start with nothing but ambition and perseverance and create a better life for yourself and your family. I think genetic scores should reflect that. I also dont like the idea of segregation. Separating the new and bad players from the pros just seems silly.

You would have these insane power house towns (which honestly would be glorious) but then you would have these ramshackle towns with a bunch of new/bad players struggling on the opposite magnitude. It would likely be filled with noobs and griefers and would likely make the game even more abrasive for struggling new players.

Maybe im not fully grasping the concept of what you are presenting so if im way of base let me know. Love the idea of having spawns affected by score though. I think new players really struggle with babies and often let them die or kill themselves trying to manage them. Would be great to see something like this implemented.

Starknight_One wrote:

I was thinking something along the lines of breaking out various aspects of play - i.e., things that satisfy different 'itches' on the gamer psychology side - and making them individual gene scores. Like so:
1) Longevity gene - personal (+ ancestors) age of death, weighted by family distance over 3-5 generations
2) Family gene - current meme score but only based on descendants/cousins, weighted by family distance
3) Altruism gene - survival of nearby peaceful non-family, like 2 but for all others 'nearby'
4) Capability gene - crafting done, influenced by number of different activities tried and objects produced
5) Fitness gene - Yum and eating habits score, higher scores from more Yum/food variety. Berrimunchers tank here.
6) Socialization gene - social interaction system score (i.e., weighted good/bad votes you've received from other players). More on SIS later.
7) Violence gene - kills + deaths ... maybe inverted? more violence = lower score? Or could just be used as a negative factor, there are bad genes...
8) Exploration gene - tiles seen, maybe bonuses for meeting new families and learning language?
Different gene scores could influence different gameplay aspects - Fitness could extend life (like current genetic fitness), while Capability could influence tool slots (or other skill-limiting mechanic). Or multiple genes could be used as determiners, like the mean of Longevity/Family/Capability could be used to determine Eve status.
The reason I think a system like this would help is that different types of gamers want different things from the game (any game). This helps to give all of them things to do. Achievers can point to their ability to survive, raise a family, or whatever they want to achieve (though it might be hard to get high scores in all areas). Explorers can literally get rewarded for exploring the map, or the tech tree. Socializers get rewards for being social (although doing a few other things than chatting would help, too). Killers get to at least point to one thing they do well, I guess? I only adopt that play style in games where it's appropriate, and it's not often appropriate in OHOL.

Ok I LOVE this. It would be quite hard to implement but i think you highlight one of the major issues ive been having with genetic score. It is only influenced by one corner of the ohol experience. Being a good spawner is important and keeping your family alive is also but it is only one aspect of the total.

There are so many important things at play that keep a civilization going. Sometimes you're in situations where overpopulation could kill the town and you have to regulate how many babies get produced. Sometimes these sacrifices are necessary for the betterment of future generations instead of simply supporting the immediate.

If you and your children sit around eating, having babies, and not doing anything for three generations your score will go up. I think that is a bit counter intuitive given one of the main purposes of this game is to build a civilization and work together for a better tomorrow.

At any rate i love the idea of having more qualifiers that capture the full spectrum of what keeps a civilization and family thriving. Also love the idea of having spawns being in ratio to genetic fitness.

Last edited by Toxolotl (2019-11-09 20:13:18)

miskas · 2019-11-09 09:20:10

OH boy, it's difficult to answer a text when paragraphs don't exist.

" I don't think that high score players should have an advantage on lower score players though."

Why? they worked for it.

"Are you proposing that the top 25% exclusively spawn to each other?"

No! it's complicated so let's explain.
First, our Gene score distribution is not flat so forgot about % we will get messed with these, they are not a stable %.
First to make this explanation simple, If a griefer, murderer, psychopath, is living to 60, he will be born in one of the players that their Gene score is from 35 to 60 and mess with his genes. You will have some interesting Delima to kill one bad kid to save others.
Your Genes don't matter on where you will be spawn. Your Own survival abilities matter. A solo player can be born to a Realy caring player.

"It shouldn't be easy to keep a high score and in fact I think it should get harder and harder the closer you get to the top."

This has a problem. if it gets harder and harder, you have to get more bonuses regarding how much harder it gets.

Right now it is so hard that none of us can ever touch 50. The last 7 days I grind genes without really caring for anything else and I am at 42 the best of us is at 46-47. The difficult to reach 44 IS REALLY HARD, believe me!. It is so hard that I never use the extra tools I have and I never really contribute to my village long term. Only short term matters. You have to Babysit every offspring of yours and you don't have the time to do anything else.

My proposition makes it so that as long as you care for your survival and genes you will continue to gain points.
if you stop caring you will lose them.
Right now Caring or not, you tend to stay close to average so it's worthless.

"if the top genetically fit players are always together, isn't that just going to make things super easy and lock out the rest from spawning reliable kids?"

They fitted genes won't be together with we have a +-25 birth variation,
The only that this formula Effectively Does is that if you Constantly die at 5 age young you will not be born to a top Gene player but on an average one. An average player can get you to live to 25.
If your lifespan is average (25-30) you get born to anyone
If your lifespan is Hight (55-60) you get born to like the top genes (30-60)

So this makes your progression to be on steps. First, you learn how to survive, then how to care for kids, then how to care for the whole village.

"So perhaps there is some kind of grace period. New players with under 20-30 hours and a low score would spawn to the most highly scored mothers available, but not the other way around. Perhaps after that grace period its just random"

What about the noobs?
4: As long as you are considered a noob your Ave. lifespan is 60. This will make sure noobs get to be born to the best portion of players to have the best chances to learn the game. When the Noob Period stops. Average life span Value starts ticking and you are free to move through the skill ladder.

"I really dont like the idea of making it harder for lower score players to raise their score and making it easier for higher score players to gain and keep theirs."

2nd and more important. If you are a player that doesn't know the game and has low survivability thus low score. This will make sure he won't be burden with raising many children. He will have more time to focus on his own survival. He will also Always have a more positive gene score from Grandmother and mother and less negative score from his BBs. Meaning that as long he manages to Survive more, his Gene score will go UP!

"One of my favorite things about this game is that you can start with nothing but ambition and perseverance and create a better life for yourself and your family. I think genetic scores should reflect that."

This is exactly what the current system Does!
First, you learn how to survive, then how to care for kids, then how to care for the whole village.

" I also don't like the idea of segregation"
It doesn't segregate a lot only the top Genes from the Worst survival rates as long as you mildly care for yourself (live to
25) you get born anywhere.

"You would have these insane powerhouse towns (which honestly would be glorious) but then you would have these ramshackle towns with a bunch of new/bad players struggling on the opposite magnitude."

Town have many people, with many gene scores, and many survival rates, and they ALL roll a dice every 30 minutes.
A very Random dice...

Last edited by miskas (2019-11-09 09:24:34)

Toxolotl · 2019-11-09 19:51:55

Good stuff. Sorry my post was hard to quote. I tend to ramble and forget to put in breaks, ill do my best to do that in the future.

I think for the most part i was confused on what you meant. I by no means think the genetic score system is perfect. I quite like what you are proposing. Especially the less babies for lower scores. Thanks for clarifying.

Last edited by Toxolotl (2019-11-09 19:54:51)

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-11-08 14:03:50

Let's make Genes actualy mean something.

#2 2019-11-08 14:40:59

Re: Let's make Genes actualy mean something.

#3 2019-11-08 16:02:40

Re: Let's make Genes actualy mean something.

#4 2019-11-08 18:09:23

Re: Let's make Genes actualy mean something.

#5 2019-11-08 19:42:32

Re: Let's make Genes actualy mean something.

#6 2019-11-09 09:20:10

Re: Let's make Genes actualy mean something.

#7 2019-11-09 19:51:55

Re: Let's make Genes actualy mean something.

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