Building stuff is looking good but...

fug · 2019-11-07 02:47:25

The root problem isn't really getting solved.

In the current game you do not need to do any within a building which means it's just better to do a job near resources related to it. Baking? The best bakery is next to a sheep pen which already gives you a clear divide from your "bakery" and sheep area. Raising children doesn't really need a building to do so as most people can stand next to or on a fire (most mothers place dressed babies on a fire currently and this is a determent due to excess pip wastage.)

The T style buildings are the best buildings in game as they minimize resources to make, fulfill the wall requirement for buildings, and can be placed next to something you will be working with for an extended amount of time. Unfortunately, from a "pro" player standpoint most people will ignore these due to ignorance or not trying to min-max when it comes to pip usage.

Unless you make some sort of greenhouse like building you'll still fail to see buildings to be useful even with slots. Other options are to slow down certain actions think fishing speed for baking or hitting steel/iron. This would give you reason to put a bakery or forge inside as you're slowing something down and giving it a time requirement. To counteract some of the pain of doing this I would increase the time an oven/kiln is warm.

Now don't get me wrong wall boxes/slot boxes are a great addition but with the current changes to buildings we will likely not see a real useful buff to buildings.

In relation to bugs/issues:

Shelves only go on white plaster walls (please let them go on red/blue/yellow as well instead of making buildings all have to be white.)
Can very quickly waste adze/saw tools by spam putting them on walls, notching them, then ripping down.
Walls with completed shelves don't have insulation.

Last edited by fug (2019-11-07 17:30:37)

Coconut Fruit · 2019-11-07 05:32:46

live-dev-changes wrote:

New indoor food drain bonus (currently +20 seconds per pip). Only affects people over 3 years old. Mousing over your temp meter explains your current food drain rate.

Also new wall shelfs
https://edge.onetech.info/3242-Wall-Slot-Shelf
https://edge.onetech.info/3240-Wall-Shelf

Since people often are being useless next to a fire, it will be probably worth making a building for that.

Coconut Fruit · 2019-11-07 05:37:12

I wonder if there are limitations in size that will be considered indoor. Can we make whole berry farm indoor? Or whole town?

fug · 2019-11-07 06:37:05

Coconut Fruit wrote:

I wonder if there are limitations in size that will be considered indoor. Can we make whole berry farm indoor? Or whole town?

7x7 is the maximum size with floors AND walls. Otherwise the temperature grid checks a 13x13 but has cold spots (which is the issue.) You can't have an inside berry farm due to lack of flooring ruining the rooms temperature.

Dodge · 2019-11-07 06:52:53

Buildings are not needed at all period.

That's the root problem.

Entire villages without a single house...

Toxolotl · 2019-11-07 07:48:18

Yea i think structures need a massive buff. I really miss perfect temp and making buildings efficient at creating near perfect temp would be great. Could encourage more building which I'm all for.

Big buildings housing a bakery or smith could be really cool. An emphasis on the structure and layout of a town is something i feel has been missing from the game. Beyond keeping raiders out there is little purpose to walls.

Another odd thing that has been bugging me for quite a while is that diagonal walls are highly inefficient. I know the gap mechanism is essential for sheep pens and such but being fixed to square builds really limits creativity. Ive thought about just planting trees on the inside to save on stone but that leaves it vulnerable to griefers and with the current water situation it would likely be a waste of resources.

Diagonal roads were huge and saved on so much potentially wasted material. Would be nice to see walls given the same opportunity. If pens were not completely reliant on the gap mechanism i feel like this fix would be easy but since its so essential i have no clue how it could be a possibility. Any ideas?

Last edited by Toxolotl (2019-11-09 20:17:36)

DestinyCall · 2019-11-07 08:06:51

I think there are several different conflicts that prevent buildings from being a strong part of the village meta.

Realistically, an old town almost ALWAYS has some buildings, because if you have enough people in the same spot for a while, someone will decide to make a building and it will get used for something, if it is big enough. But from a practical purpose, building aren't really required or encouraged, due to certain limitations and downsides that tend to outweigh the positives.

First .. what are the benefits of making a building?

Better temperature (if all doors are closed), which reduces pip drain for players inside the building
Helps to define the space. I think this is the main purpose for buildings right now - they help to designate work spaces, like the bakery or nursery.
May reduce foot traffic or direct traffic to certain areas, if the design is good.

Next .. what are the downsides of a building?

Temperature is finicky and requires all doors closed, all floor tiles covered, and the walls can't be too far apart or it won't register as a complete room.
Walls block movement and closed doors block pathfinding, which makes going in and out of a building more time-consuming and annoying than working in an open space with strategically placed boxes.
Walls/doors take up valuable tile space which cuts into the available work-space in the village and moves everything farther apart.
Doors can be locked. Doorways can be blocked. Houses are potential death-traps.
Construction materials are limited. If I build a stone house, there will be less nearby stone for my neighbor's house. If both of us finish our houses, the next person will have even farther to travel to find stones. This problem gets exponentially worse as more house builders join in.
Being indoors is not rewarded or encouraged by the game - there are no tasks that need to be done inside a room. There are no objects (like furniture) that can only be placed inside a building or on a wood floor.
Warm clothing already protects you quite well. The added bonus from being indoors is nice, but you can't live inside a 6x6 box your whole life and you can't take your house with you when you travel.
Lastly, building a large structure takes a lot of time and a lot or resources and a lot of coordination. Most people won't bother, because the benefits do not outweigh the downsides.

...

I'm not sure which of these issues is really the "root problem", but I suspect that all of them are contributing to the overall issue. It would be a good idea to look at addressing some or all of these problems to make buildings more appealing and functional. Working on just one or two probably won't have a big impact.

...

Adding storage and improving inside temperature is a good place to start. Adding additional reasons to gather inside would also be a great change.

Dodge · 2019-11-07 08:33:56

Also the wall box thing doesn't have insulation

Surprised you missed that, "fug"

Coconut Fruit · 2019-11-07 10:09:24

Buildings are for esthetic purposes and it's very important to make them. I experienced many times how lazy and useless people were in messy and ugly towns. Little cleaning and everyone saw a sense to work again, a town starts working again.
Towns wouldn't survive without floors and buildings just because of psychology reasons. People will be less likely to care about a messy, ugly town.

Making a cute town where everyone feels comfortable is the best way to make your family thrive for a very long time.

pein · 2019-11-07 12:15:09

the only heat bonus I would consider Is medium heat, right now we got that only in 1x5 or 5x1 size building, on one tile.
Fire is hot and standing right on it is not way too hot, you can manage by stepping in and out. Or two fires creates 4 perfects spots, while inside is just way too hot on some spots with 2 fires.

Central heating could fix that issue, if the game could detect how many tiles are there inside, it could be a fireplace placed on wall, which would require charcoal or firewood. The heating would be always medium heat, the usage would be higher for higher rooms. For example if one fire is 4 minutes, then inside could last like 6. Considering that kindling is 1 minute, 1 firewood worth like 4 kindling, charcoal making comes with the work, so should be like 1.5-2x value. So, for example, a 7x7 building would require charcoal every 2 minutes (could be stacked up and automatically used up) to provide perfect heat inside the building. That would be 1 charcoal/25 tiles/1 minute, and based on building size could be adjusted automatically to last less.

fug · 2019-11-07 16:30:41

Dodge wrote:

Also the wall box thing doesn't have insulation
Surprised you missed that, "fug"

kek. Because I looked at the walls with the boxes hanging sideways which do have insulation instead of the actual normal shelf walls.

https://edge.onetech.info/3245-Plaster- … and-Thread
https://edge.onetech.info/3244-Plaster-Wall-with-Box

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-07 17:08:22

Whoa, did I forget to insulate the wall shelves?

That's a bug! Will fix it.

Yeah, 7x7 is the limit for being inside. That's a pretty big room. It's possible to build a house with multiple rooms, of course, with doors in between.

The problem with allowing bigger spaces is computational resources server-side. We have to simulate the thermal environment of each player every few seconds (to keep it dynamic), and 13x13 already means sampling 169 database locations per player, which is a lot. There's also the CPU resources spent on thermal simulation in 13x13.

But anyway, for thematic reasons, huge rooms aren't that great anyway. Would be weird looking if the entire village was one big room, for example.

DestinyCall · 2019-11-07 17:10:30

7x7 seems a little too small for me. I like to have room to spread out my pies when I'm baking.

Any chance we could get work tables?

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-07 17:17:06

Fixed insulation of shelves:

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLifeD … a214730514

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-07 17:23:28

How would a work table function differently from a storage box? Because the stuff would be spread out more visually? Unfortunately, the containment implementation is a stack (which is why stuff in a container bumps down when you remove a middle item). So I could make a table that could hold four things in a grid. But they'd re-arrange whenever a middle item was removed.

And transitions on contained items isn't supported (though maybe it could be?), so you can't spread out four plates on a table (actually a container) and then spread dough on each one....

Whatever · 2019-11-07 17:28:44

When this update goes live, only build east west walls, never build north south walls since they cant hold shelves.
(assuming jason adds shelves to stone walls and other walls to)

fug · 2019-11-07 17:40:00

Yeah it's a little silly that buildings will be all east-west if people min max which I like the look of anyways. Definitely should let painted walls be able to have shelves too since otherwise painting a wall is just a waste of resources.

If you ever get around to fixing T buildings can you add a way to insulate ice holes? Currently there's no reason to build fishing huts due to the fact you're just wasting space and resources by putting down flooring and walls since the ice hole will ruin the insides bonus.

The 13x13 room change ended up killing doorless buildings which is good in the case of making them less silly but it also made buildings more annoying to use as lets face it doors kind of suck. Reverting the change would make buildings better but at the cost of making buildings look weird again.

In relations to tables just having something cosmetic to go inside would be nice as it lets people decorate their rooms/bakeries/whatever. It doesn't have to function any different from a box but it would be nice to leave something like pies on a table instead of sideways in a box/basket.

Twisted · 2019-11-07 17:48:11

fug wrote:

In relations to tables just having something cosmetic to go inside would be nice as it lets people decorate their rooms/bakeries/whatever. It doesn't have to function any different from a box but it would be nice to leave something like pies on a table instead of sideways in a box/basket.

Agreed 100%. They don't need to have a different function, their only difference could be that they display the items upright instead of sideways and that would already be a massive improvement.

Tipy · 2019-11-07 18:18:18

Why only plastered walls? What about painted walls and most importantly STONE walls? Shelfs would be really bad if you could place them ONLY on plastered walls

DestinyCall · 2019-11-07 18:44:51

Related to the building update - I'd recommend removing decay from tule reed base and adobe walls.

Currently the reed base decays after an hour, I believe. These reed bases can be harvested using a shovel to get adobe. Clay is a finite resource and it tends to get used up very quickly on plates/bowls/crock pots. Reed is frequently harvested to make early baskets, but the reed bases are often times ignored because early camps don't have access to shovel and usually have very limited iron supplies. Later in the game, it is much harder to get enough adobe to build a small house.

If you DO manage to gather adobe, many players are not aware of adobe wall decay, since it doesn't set in until many hours later. Since stone walls work in the opposite way (instead of decaying, they become permanent), I find it counter-intuitive that adobe walls fall apart over time. Personally, I'd prefer both wall types to decay or require maintenance and I'd like clay to be a renewable natural resource that can be harvested in large quantities for building adobe huts or produced through some kind of a process using higher tech.

But in the meantime, removing decay features would make adobe an more accessible building material.

tobiasisahawk · 2019-11-07 19:19:39

What about planter boxes to allow farming/decoration to happen in buildings? Make a storage box, dump two baskets of dirt in it. Treat it like a normal ground tile for planting.

Toxolotl · 2019-11-07 19:25:36

Ive thought about stone walls needing a decay function as well. Would be nice to see something like 10 hours they become ancient and unbreakable another 10 hours they become decrepit and need repair.

Perhaps decrepit walls never decay but they can be removed or repaired. This would give players the ability to edit builds and fix mistakes while still having ancient ruins.

I loved finding ruined cities before the rift. Would hate to loose that aesthetic but being able to reuse the stone and edit things around would be great. Would deter permanent hoarding or walling off vital resources as well.

Last edited by Toxolotl (2019-11-09 20:18:28)

WalrusesConquer · 2019-11-08 20:21:58

I mean we don't have houses since what would we put in them? Ovens? I think for buildings to be more prevelant they probably need to be cheaper and have some useful furniture inside (shelves are a good start!)

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-11-07 02:47:25

Building stuff is looking good but...

#2 2019-11-07 05:32:46

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#3 2019-11-07 05:37:12

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#4 2019-11-07 06:37:05

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#5 2019-11-07 06:52:53

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#6 2019-11-07 07:48:18

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#7 2019-11-07 08:06:51

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#8 2019-11-07 08:33:56

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#9 2019-11-07 10:09:24

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#10 2019-11-07 12:15:09

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#11 2019-11-07 16:30:41

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#12 2019-11-07 17:08:22

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#13 2019-11-07 17:10:30

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#14 2019-11-07 17:17:06

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#15 2019-11-07 17:23:28

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#16 2019-11-07 17:28:44

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#17 2019-11-07 17:40:00

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#18 2019-11-07 17:48:11

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#19 2019-11-07 18:18:18

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#20 2019-11-07 18:44:51

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#21 2019-11-07 19:19:39

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#22 2019-11-07 19:25:36

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

#23 2019-11-08 20:21:58

Re: Building stuff is looking good but...

Board footer