So Less Content Again?

Spoonwood · 2019-10-18 01:40:02

It seems to me that plenty of people have been clamoring for more content. The rabbit change still sounds like less content, or at least less content that can get easily used. Rabbit hunting traditionally has been something easily accessible by new players who can pay enough attention to their pip bar to not starve outside of town. I mean, it was simple, and doesn't look like it will be anymore. Reading dev changes I see this:

"Tapout trigger implementation. Upon construction, a given object can tapout nearby objects on a grid pattern with a given radius. Used for shallow wells that tapout all spring heads in an 80-tile radius."

So, fewer springs end up on the map.

Where was the clamor for this sort of change among the people who bought the game or who might buy the game in the future? On what basis was it anticipated that such would make for a good change to the game, when there exists a long track record of steady decline in the game, with very few uptciks, since the temperature overhaul?

Seriously, if you're hoping for more content, and with consistent ignoring of that, and apparently a desire to have even less content in the game, is it worth your time to keep on playing this game? Because you might want to consider it's not, and the game designer apparently not only doesn't want to satisfy your desires, but rather go in the opposite direction.

StrongForce · 2019-10-18 01:54:10

Quit or stop crying.
Jason will handle it and new content will be made once the foundation is solid.

Spoonwood · 2019-10-18 02:40:44

StrongForce wrote:

Quit or stop crying.
Jason will handle it and new content will be made once the foundation is solid.

What a bizarre thing to say. The foundation hasn't been getting more solid.

It also sounds like you can't handle negative, realistic talk all that well, so you just try to make it seem like it something it's not.

Alright, maybe you were being sarcastic, since you may realize that Jason may well quit at designing this game soon enough.

Edit: I'm also going to point out that people requesting things, such as the people who have wanted more content, well that's feedback. Telling people to not talk is like saying that you don't want feedback. So, yeah, I'm going with sarcasm.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-10-18 02:42:14)

DestinyCall · 2019-10-18 03:30:15

Honestly, the recent lack of meaninful content doesn't scary me as much as this:

jasonrohrer wrote:

I acknowledge that there is a real danger here:
I started with a "pretty fun", "almost great" game that a lot of people love.
I'm trying to make a "insanely fun", "indisputably greatest game of all time" type game based on OHOL's premise. There is a pretty good chance that it won't work. That it's impossible. That making a truly great game based on this premise can't be done, or at least can't be done by me, at this time.
And, in my quest to realize this likely-impossible goal, I will destroy the "pretty fun" game that used to be. That's a risk I'm willing to take, though, in pursuit of excellence.

I love OHOL. I think it is a truly unique game with a fascinating premise. It is already a good game and it has the potentially to be something really great.

But when I read Jason's posts, I wonder if he is even seeing the same game as I am seeing. I wonder if he recognizes what makes OHOL stand out from other games. The parts of OHOL that shouldn't change or do not need to change to make it a better game.

I don't want see what is special about OHOL get destroyed in pursuit of an impossible dream. I want to protect the spark of genius in this game and see it nurtured into a blazing fire of amazing, one-of-a-kind game experiences. I want this game to become the next big indie success story, like Minecraft or ONI.

And I think it can do that ... but only if Jason can figure out what is really important and make the hard choices about what needs to be done to improve OHOL as it actually is, rather than focusing all his attention on a vision of the game as it might be at some indeterminate point in the future. Maybe that means scrapping some ideas that didn't pan out as expected. Maybe that means putting together a timeline of goals to keep on track and avoid stagnation. Maybe that means spending some time re-balancing existing content and cleaning up the dead-ends in the tech tree instead of piling on more new content or making radical changes to core mechanics.

Many parts of this game could use attention right now. And fixing one problem tends to uncover two more that were hiding underneath the more obvious issue.

Personally, I think the game is badly in need of a tech tree overhaul to consolidate and streamline existing content. Rather than increasing the difficulty curve even higher, we need to soften it up and allow the game to be a little more welcoming and open to new players. A solo play option would be a great way to accomodate people who are overwhelmed in the main game. Or a "beginner server" where new players can be initially funneled to learn more about the basics from other players, with the option to opt out and be born on the main server, if they want the full experience.

There's a lot that could be done to make OHOL into its best possible version. I just hope that Jason doesn't break his new toy by taking it apart to see how it ticks.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-10-18 03:44:40)

Dodge · 2019-10-18 03:43:00

Have you ever played any game in god mode where you can spawn everything you want, be invincible etc?

It's boring as fuck.

Sometimes less is more, content will be added when these issues are solved, so yeah stop complaining you should have realised by now that it's not changing anything except making you look like a bitch whiny baby.

But if you have good ideas that goes in the direction of what what is going on currently and not constantly going against the current situation then they are welcome.

Like for example rabbits have been nerfed because ressources where too plentiful and advanced villages had an over abundance of everything and making advanced life boring and stale, maybe rabbit farming will be added at some point maybe not.

Why not also have the high society clothes decay BUT at the same time have the clothes making process be less tedious while at the same time using more ressources.

Like for example feeding a shorn sheep with corn gives wool so you dont have to constantly make berry bowls which is time consuming in a repetitive way especially since a lot of them is needed to make just one piece of cloth.

Corn would be easier to feed should be raw corn to avoid the waiting to be dry or maybe could be carrots instead of corn, one carrot = one fleece but make clothes decay, does that sound good?

Also it makes sense you need a whole bowl of berries and carrot for a baby sheep to have enough food to grow up but only a carrot for a grown shorn sheep to regrow wool.

Feeding with a carrot would only give fleece no poop and feeding with berry bowl and carrot would give both (could be two different transitions, shorn sheep fed and shorn sheep well fed), to avoid dung clutter.

And an alternative way to dye clothes like using ashes as mordant and being able to farm indigo and rose madder.

This both increases consumption of ressources while at the same time makes the whole clothes making process less repetitive.

Last edited by Dodge (2019-10-18 03:43:50)

Spoonwood · 2019-10-18 03:43:59

DestinyCall wrote:

Rather than increasing the difficulty curve even higher, we need to soften it up and allow the game to be a little more welcoming and open to new players.

Well with declining numbers happening as Jason has tried to make the game more challenging, that would make sense. But, this rabbit change certainly won't do that. Neither will the change where springs *magically* disappear in an 80 tile radius, because someone dug up a well. And probably, such a change will seem rather artificial... map features disappearing by magic.

DestinyCall · 2019-10-18 03:55:35

Yes Dodge ... that is exactly the kind of content change I would like to see. Reducing tedious chores, like milkweed farming and thread production. Increase the variety of useful and interesting jobs for the average villager.

Simple jobs that can be taught to new players in a single lifetime, but provide genuine benefit to the village. Re-balanced growth and decay. Better storage options. More building/construction options. Stone age/bronze age tools. Dirt paths. Stone quarries or more advanced mining options.

More social and family interactions. Ways to connect and share our stories. Professions and apprenticeships. Skills and genetics. Seasonal weather changes. Additional animal husbandry options - meat and leather from cows. Lard and poop from pigs. Domestic turkey and rabbit.

There are SO MANY cool things I would love to see in OHOL. It is sad to see so many weeks go by without real progress toward a better game state.

Spoonwood · 2019-10-18 03:59:03

Dodge wrote:

Have you ever played any game in god mode where you can spawn everything you want, be invincible etc?
It's boring as fuck.

I've seen plenty of people do that in ONI on YouTube (well as invincible as they can be... dupes can still die in the game's sandbox mode). They don't seem bored. More like they are experimenting.

Having the option of such mods isn't something that players reject. People use reloading in plenty of games also.

Additionally, seriously, none of the old systems were god mode or even close to that, so I don't understand why you make such a comparison.

Dodge wrote:

Sometimes less is more, content will be added when these issues are solved, so yeah stop complaining you should have realised by now that it's not changing anything except making you look like a bitch whiny baby.

You don't have a good rejoinder here and just result to name calling Dodge. Continually declining player count all the while Jason has tried to make things more difficult.

Dodge wrote:

But if you have good ideas that goes in the direction of what what is going on currently and not constantly going against the current situation then they are welcome.

Lol. Are you serious? You basically just said I should be a 'yes' man and only agree. Sorry, REAL opinions don't work that way. 'Yes' men are often fake (and well, sometimes might have to be that way to keep their job). And feedback isn't real when it's confined to a certain tone or to agree with a certain direction. Yeah, I'm laughing again. How in the world can you believe that only praise could make sense?

Dodge wrote:

Like for example rabbits have been nerfed because ressources where too plentiful and advanced villages had an over abundance of everything and making advanced life boring and stale, maybe rabbit farming will be added at some point maybe not.

No Dodge. That's not the case. Advanced villages weren't confined to living off of rabbit based foods. That's just silly.

Dodge wrote:

Why not also have the high society clothes decay BUT at the same time have the clothes making process be less tedious while at the same time using more ressources.

Don't know. I also don't know what it has to do with these changes.

Dodge wrote:

Like for example feeding a shorn sheep with corn gives wool so you dont have to constantly make berry bowls which is time consuming in a repetitive way especially since a lot of them is needed to make just one piece of cloth.
Corn would be easier to feed should be raw corn to avoid the waiting to be dry or maybe could be carrots instead of corn, one carrot = one fleece but make clothes decay, does that sound good?

Again, I don't know why this would come up here. I do think that would sound better, but basically because putting a bunch of berries in a bowl for a sheep in this game kind of felt like a grind to me. Even worse when I didn't pick berries off an edge bush which I did when I first played. So, yeah, I do think that one process such as putting dried corn in a bowl for sheep than the repetitive process of putting berries in a bowl of berries and a carrot would be better. Picking berries felt kind of grindy. And you have two in game hands, but apparently only one works. Why couldn't two berries get picked at once?

On this also, plenty of people have called for automated type farming systems before. Some machine to pick berries would probably be along those lines, but I don't recall that getting mentioned.

Dantox · 2019-10-18 04:08:23

DestinyCall wrote:

Personally, I think the game is badly in need of a tech tree overhaul to consolidate and streamline existing content.

I totally agree, the current tech tree is pretty broken and its pretty much based with objects or items that serve only one use or purpose, it also doesnt help that a big part of it is purposeless now with recent game changing updates like the rift

Like, why in the world would you want to make a car or a plane anyways? horse carts were buffed so that makes the cars more wastefull and worse and planes have no real use at all with the implementation of the rift (escaping lacks purpose too, hopefully that might change in the future)

Like, has anyone EVER seen a morse radio in the last month?

Dodge · 2019-10-18 04:14:47

Do you really think constantly opposing others with ridiculous out of context arguments makes you the opposite of a "yes man" ?

Also btw i never said you should agree with everything that is going on or being implemented, i'm saying that there are goals currently , and that the changes are going in that direction so instead of constantly going in the opposite direction find ideas that go in the same direction but that you personally find interesting.

Instead of constantly REEE'ing to revert back changes like the temperature overhall.

Another case of not really reading/understanding and just saying the usual "NO + out of place argument" i guess you're a "no man" then

WalrusesConquer · 2019-10-18 05:33:07

The foundation has been getting solid, I would HATE it if the game had more content but was as broken as it was 18 months ago. No point in trying dress up a pig, it's still a pig - now we are finally starting to get rid of huge issues the game had from the start

Spoonwood · 2019-10-18 06:10:46

No, the game isn't going in the direction of greatest game ever. Seriously people, consistently declining numbers is not indicative of the greatest game ever.

Dodge is also not consistent in saying 'stop complaining' but also saying 'I never said you should agree with everything that is going on or being implemented.' He probably doesn't even realize it, which probably indicates how this game isn't going in a good direction.

And people having more trouble getting a backpack after this upcoming update? No, players won't be happy with that. Plenty of players if not the majority of players will not like this update.

Dantox · 2019-10-18 06:17:38

Spoonwood wrote:

No, the game isn't going in the direction of greatest game ever.

The sole concept of creating "the greatest game ever" is impossible by nature and honestly is kinda worrying that jason is focusing on that statement everytime he can.

Even then, if there was the possibility of creating "the greatest game ever" it wouldnt be made with a poor and limited engine to start with, so by his logic there is already a bad start on that sense.

However, i feel that OHOL still has the potential to be a great game that could create its own genre, but only time will tell if that will stay a dream or if it will come true

Dodge · 2019-10-18 06:42:52

Spoonwood wrote:

No, the game isn't going in the direction of greatest game ever. Seriously people, consistently declining numbers is not indicative of the greatest game ever.

In case you havent seen or understood the graph, numbers where always declining weither it was content updates, bug fixes or gameplay changes

Btw i'm not talking about some tiny random spikes in player numbers i'm talking overall

My guess is that new players give up when they are faced to the unintuitive crafting system or rather the unintuitive tool tip, constantly having onetech open while playing (even if it's a great tool for a more detailed view) and slowly learning this way is not the best experience.

But that's only a guess i could be totally wrong, stop pretending you know why player numbers are declining.

Spoonwood wrote:

Dodge is also not consistent in saying 'stop complaining' but also saying 'I never said you should agree with everything that is going on or being implemented.' He probably doesn't even realize it, which probably indicates how this game isn't going in a good direction.

Oh i'm very consistent it's just that you dont understand, you can disagree about something and point out why, without constantly complaining about changes and asking for them to be removed.

Spoonwood wrote:

He probably doesn't even realize it, which probably indicates how this game isn't going in a good direction.

That sums up why most of your arguments dont make any sense at all...

Do i represent the game? How does that make sense? How does that give any indication about anything?

Me not realizing that i was contradicting myself (which is not true btw) means the game isn't going in a good direction, that's your logic?

What???

Explain your logic, if you are even able to because to me this makes absolutely no sense at all, completely illogical and unrelated comment...

CatX · 2019-10-18 07:29:49

Dodge wrote:

But that's only a guess i could be totally wrong, stop pretending you know why player numbers are declining.

I haven't played in a while. I don't know when I'll be back, but I don't feel very inspired.

I'm not sure I can point to one specific thing that makes me not play though. I was very tired of griefers. From what I understand, the new curse system has made it better, but for some reason it's not enough to make me jump back in.

When I consider playing, what pops up first in my mind is the countless hours of picking berries and carrots and making compost. And I feel tired even before I begin. I actually like being a farmer in the game, but I don't like how there's no development in the actual tasks farmers do.

I'm not fond of the rift. I'm not fond of wilderness where plants don't grow back. It just doesn't feel like wilderness, like nature. Ultimately, there will be scarcity and there's nothing we can do to prevent that. So it's as if the big underlying theme of this game is: "Meaninglessness. Nothing matters. Eventually everything goes to he**."

And I'm not fond of player made apocalypses or wars.

I still find the game fascinating which is why I pay attention to the updates and what you all think of them. And I believe there will come an update that makes me pick up the game again. But making rabbit hunting harder isn't it.

That said, I do wish there was a bigger optional tutorial area. I spent a lot of time there learning how to forge, and I'd like to use an area like that to learn to build engines.

And I do think it would be a great help for beginners if they learned that there was other kinds of food to be found besides berries. I wish there was a table in the game we could place food on. A similar table could be found in the tutorial, and it wouldn't have to contain all the foods, perhaps just a pie and some cooked meat, but it would be a simple item for new players to recognize. "Table means food."

Dodge · 2019-10-18 07:41:28

CatX wrote:

...

You have the point of view of an experienced player the issues you are talking about are true but only truly affect someone that is already at some point in the game.

I'm mostly referring to really new players like less than 5 hours if not even less, like 2-3 hours then quitting the game for some reason.

There's a lot of new players each day, that play the game for the first time but then quit for some reason, solving this issue could make the difference between decreasing number of players and increasing numbers.

You for example got bored only after countless hours playing the game, imagine if all the new players play as many hours as you did, there would probably be a consistent 150-200 players on server if not more.

As a new player you can be entertained for hours with the crafting and other stuff to do, before hitting the point where you start seeing the real issues with the game.

CatX · 2019-10-18 08:38:31

I agree Dodge, more could be done to try to keep new players.
And I guess we'd have to ask them why they don't return.
Since there are other games based on OHOL with better tutorial areas, I guess they are a good indication of what is needed.
And if Jason doesn't want to hire someone to help work on the game, perhaps this is something another person could do? Build rooms in the tutorial area to expand and improve it?

Would it be possible to create an abundant tutorial village, so that after walking around on your own a bit, you have an option to meet up with other new players and explore the village together?

Last edited by CatX (2019-10-18 08:41:04)

Dodge · 2019-10-18 08:48:06

I personally find the tutorial tedious and pretty annoying for new players: you just joined the game but you have to first go trough a 30 minutes tutorial, that kinda sets the tone for the rest of the game saying that this is the kind off game that needs an extensive tutorial because it's so complicated and unintuitive.

Imo the tutorial exists because the game fails to be intuitive enough to not need a tutorial

Things like the cursing system, the posse mechanic or war and peace could be in a simple help menu when you press escape or on the login page but dont require a whole tutorial.

If you need a tutorial to explain to you how to eat or make basic tools then it's a clear indicator that something is wrong.

It would be much better if there wasn't a tutorial at all but the game would be more intuitive to the point of even a new player freshly joining the game could start crafting and do basic stuff then learn trough others and regular gameplay.

CatX · 2019-10-18 08:52:15

Well, strictly speaking...
The only thing that prevents a new player from learning what to eat is that they die from hunger before they learn.
They could in theory pop into the game from the start if they didn't die before they had time to figure things out. I guess.

Dodge · 2019-10-18 09:03:40

CatX wrote:

Well, strictly speaking...
The only thing that prevents a new player from learning what to eat is that they die from hunger before they learn.
They could in theory pop into the game from the start if they didn't die before they had time to figure things out. I guess.

Yeah there's a lot of these issue, foods give too much value like the fish for example that fills the whole bar so you need to wait to be completely starving to not waste it but at the same time the food drain is too fast, so new players just resort to eating berries constantly to avoid dying because it's the easiest food.

Also there's more minor things like having a tiny seed in hand or a needle and trying to pick up food but ending up dying because you cant pick it up.

Plus there is no way to tell if someone is starving and about to die so even if you could have fed them to save them you dont even know if they are about to die and by the time they tell you they are starving it's too late.

pein · 2019-10-18 09:47:57

jason doesn't really understand his game or comprehend that a few people do all the work, sometimes all the town is just leaches
one player does 90% of buildings, flooring, anything that last. Everybody else does food, using up some resources veterans get or build stuff that needs to be taken off later on, or does something that doesn't benefit the city at all. This is due to how easy is leeching, stealing and how hard is communication.

rabbit hunters are he entry level explorers who leave town risking their lives to get bonus for others. It wont affect players on personal level as it's not like people doing their own clothes and some people rather kill others than to do anything useful.

JonySky · 2019-10-18 10:54:22

My question is: does it take a whole week to make these kinds of changes?
7 days just to nerf the poor rabbits (that nobody has requested !!!)

Spoonwood · 2019-10-18 14:54:41

Dodge wrote:

In case you havent seen or understood the graph, numbers where always declining weither it was content updates, bug fixes or gameplay changes

False. There were half a month long upticks in player count from December of 2018 to January of 2019 and from the beginning of February: https://i.imgur.com/djVG3FJ.png Another one happened in July of 2018.

Dodge wrote:

Oh i'm very consistent it's just that you dont understand, you can disagree about something and point out why, without constantly complaining about changes and asking for them to be removed.

Dodge still isn't consistent.

Dodge wrote:

If you need a tutorial to explain to you how to eat or make basic tools then it's a clear indicator that something is wrong.

This is silly. I would think that almost all games of complexity have tutorials of some sort. Games that don't tend to be simple like minesweeper, and I think that also had directions on how the controls work that you could look up.

Spoonwood · 2019-10-18 14:56:26

pein wrote:

It wont affect players on personal level as it's not like people doing their own clothes and some people rather kill others than to do anything useful.

People on the discord were predicting that stabbing someone for their backpack will occur, because of the rarity of backpacks. That might have happened some before... I think I recall some conversation where someone demanded that I give them my backpack, but it's rather sketchy of a memory, so it could have been about something else.

Spoonwood · 2019-10-18 14:58:12

JonySky wrote:

My question is: does it take a whole week to make these kinds of changes?
7 days just to nerf the poor rabbits (that nobody has requested !!!)

You can read the whole list of changes on dev-changes on the discord.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-10-18 01:40:02

So Less Content Again?

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