Undergoing PvP Changes

Thaulos · 2019-09-26 00:13:35

All in all, good changes I think.

Jason please remember we currently have a growl first always win system. Could we have a tie system somehow? Maybe they could both hurt each other?

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-09-26 00:14:09)

Booklat1 · 2019-09-26 00:30:55

I don't think Jason would argue that a chance based system or some other form of tie mechanic would be beneficial. It's basic game theory that "x always wins" is not a very fruitful scenario for making different choices. Change X to attacker and that's the system we have.

It could be something really simple such as a 50/50 chance or something very gimmicky involving yum and genetic fitness. Hopefully it's at least intuitive.

fug · 2019-09-26 00:35:15

While it's not perfect these are good changes. The PvP system still has problems but with changes to curses + PvP we're seeing that Jason can once again be trusted to change things (eventually)

testo · 2019-09-26 05:51:35

The biggest problem for me is: It is impossible to dodge a hit. Even if I hear my opponent. Even If I´m 2 tiles away and start running away from my attacker as soon as the growl begins. I can run for like half screen, and he always hits me.

Last edited by testo (2019-09-26 05:52:03)

Dodge · 2019-09-26 06:12:13

testo wrote:

The biggest problem for me is: It is impossible to dodge a hit. Even if I hear my opponent. Even If I´m 2 tiles away and start running away from my attacker as soon as the growl begins. I can run for like half screen, and he always hits me.

Yes it's not perfect right now the only thing you can do is run away, still better than getting instakill.

It gives you time to run to safety and ask for help so someone else can kill him, or at least get closer to a medic and pads.

pein · 2019-09-26 06:22:19

Oh! Wow, now you can see yourself panicking while you die anyway.

How is something a good change, when the previous version of duels had more options, such as duels, arenas, defending against griefers, interesting fights, while now the only thing you see is total losers stabbing others with their magic aim, then flexing how good they are?

sigmen4020 · 2019-09-26 06:24:42

Dodge wrote:

testo wrote:
The biggest problem for me is: It is impossible to dodge a hit. Even if I hear my opponent. Even If I´m 2 tiles away and start running away from my attacker as soon as the growl begins. I can run for like half screen, and he always hits me.

Yes it's not perfect right now the only thing you can do is run away, still better than getting instakill.
It gives you time to run to safety and ask for help so someone else can kill him, or at least get closer to a medic and pads.

Another option now, if you are on the outskirts of a town, is to run to the town so your killer can be killed and cursed (and you healed in a perfect scenario). So if you are outside of town and being attacked, run towards the town. This will be especially helpful when dealing with foreigners. I doubt any of your townsfolk would take the side of the foreigner killing one of their own.

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2019-09-26 06:28:54)

Dodge · 2019-09-26 06:26:38

One thing to keep in mind is that griefers are usually isolated. This could be used in a mechanic to benefit the group over isolated individuals.

What could be interesting is a stun mechanic that doesn't require any weapon so it can be used at any time and rapidly (punching)

But that would only work if a group does it.

So for example one person punching another would do nothing but 3-4+ players punching the same person would stun that person and maybe make them unconscious.

So a griefer could rapidly be neutralized even if nobody has a weapon, this would be really useful in early camps or any situation where there is no weapon around.

There would need to be adjustements so twin,trips,quads cant benefit of that mechanic but i think it could be something interesting to see.

pein · 2019-09-26 06:29:42

Well, a reflex based defence would be nice, even just to stun, disarm or cancel other players, wouldn't win fights but you could run away or fight back later.

sigmen4020 · 2019-09-26 06:31:05

pein wrote:

Well, a reflex based defence would be nice, even just to stun, disarm or cancel other players, wouldn't win fights but you could run away or fight back later.

Well if you could disarm your attacker there would be the option to kill them with their own weapon. Like back when snowballs disarmed people.

Dodge · 2019-09-26 06:59:32

Every mechanic that involves 1Vs1 and counter attacks or disarming, dodging etc can be used by griefers as well.

So a griefer could disarm you and kill you with your own weapon.

But if it requires a group then isolated griefers are at a disadvantage.

Dodge · 2019-09-26 07:12:04

The goal with these changes is not to make an interesting PVP system with dodge, blocks and counter attacks.

But to avoid getting instantly killed out of nowhere and to be able to ask for help of other players.

I highly doubt the game ever will have some elaborate PVP system because it would benefit griefers too.

There is still room for improvement though

Taking advantage of number and using mechanics that involve the group over isolated players is where the game should be headed in terms of PVP imo.

Maybe if you are targeted you couldn't punch but if you are targetting someone and you get punched by someone else you drop your weapon. Only one punch would be enough to drop your weapon but it would only work if you punch someone that is actively targetting someone.

In other words punching someone that is growling with murder mouth would make them drop their weapon.

You could say they are distracted by focusing on their target and punching them would surprise them and make them drop their weapon.

pein · 2019-09-26 08:15:14

And every griefer can attack you for no fucking reason then flex about killing you without effort. Doesn't prove a point. If you can flex about it, you should deserve it. PVP is synonym with skill based combat.
Intention based combat shouldn't be deadly and running away should always be one option.

I would prefer elaborate simulation with a few choices and medium level of rng. Need an HP bar foremost.

BladeWoods · 2019-09-26 15:49:11

I think a big problem with the running away but getting caught eventually is fps. If your fps drops then your move speed drops which means some people can catch up to others.

DestinyCall · 2019-09-26 15:57:33

The most effective defense I've found so far is using auto-lock to kite my would-be killer onto a wolf or mosquito. They have to break the lock to deal with the new threat and if they don't, they die. But ... I still have to reach a deadly animal before they catch up to me or before my internet decides to crap out on me.

Dodge · 2019-09-26 16:05:04

DestinyCall wrote:

The most effective defense I've found so far is using auto-lock to kite my would-be killer onto a wolf or mosquito. They have to break the lock to deal with the new threat and if they don't, they die. But ... I still have to reach a deadly animal before they catch up to me or before my internet decides to crap out on me.

How?

Why would they have to break auto lock to avoid a threat?

You know you can move with mouse and still have auto lock.

jasonrohrer · 2019-09-26 17:12:15

This game is NOT combat focused.

The engine, the networking code, etc. were never designed to be realtime. If you want to make a game that feels good for twitch combat (like Overwatch), you have to use a lot of special tricks and techniques to deal with lag, parallel possible worlds, etc. My code does not use those tricks and techniques (and I don't even know what those tricks and techniques are, because I've never designed or programmed a multiplayer twitch combat game).

KILL is supposed to be a logical action in this game. It is necessary to get rid of people who are bugging you. It cannot be removed from the game for this reason.

However, it will never be fleshed out with dodging, parries, etc. Because that stuff would feel like crap, given that the networking code wasn't designed to support that kind of precision.

I agree that some kind of group attack would be nice. Dodge, I think you've been talking about punching for 16 months now. I hear you.

However, I can't really imagine how to implement that in a way that wouldn't feel clunky. I really don't want to add another verb to the game to support something like this.... and when someone is running away, then what? I just have this vision of a bunch of people crowding around "punching" and it not being at all clear what's going on.

So I'm still waiting for the right idea to arrive.

There is already some safety in numbers with medicine, so that's on the right track.

I don't think it needs to be a weapon-free solution. Weapons are fine. If you don't have them around.... well, that's kinda a problem you can solve (by having them around).

But if you've got 5 people trying to kill you, you can easily get away, due to the way killing is implemented.

Chasing after someone is NOT interesting, and really shouldn't be in the game.

It almost feels like, maybe, killing should require multiple people.... or if enough people decide to kill you, you simply can't get away.

I really want to get away from dodging, chasing, running around, and all this nonsense. It's frustrating and not interesting.

What about you getting slower and slower the more people are chasing you with murder-mouth? Like, one person trying to get you, you run at normal speed. But 2 people, you slow down, and 3 people, you really slow down.

Or maybe the target always runs at normal speed, but the chasing group speeds up.

Maybe one person trying to kill on their own is slow, and easy to run away from. This allows one person to easily "hold ground" and guard an area, but not really chase people.

As more and more people start kill-chasing the same person, they speed up, until when enough people are chasing, it becomes impossible to escape. Something like:

posseSize        speed
1                 0.5
2                 1.0
3                 1.5
4+                2.0

This is a little silly thematically... maybe they motivate each other to run faster. Maybe they are drafting off each other to reduce wind resistance.

Anyway, this would make it so that a lone griefer can't do much (even with a bow, you get 3-seconds of warning now, and you'll be able to run away), whereas a determined posse trying to get one person would be unstoppable.

Dodge · 2019-09-26 17:45:28

Yes group mechanics is the way to go imo

Slowing down the person targetted seems like a good idea and it could go hand in hand with a stunning mechanic and maybe even handcuffing and jails at some point.

Thematically yeah it's a little off since being scared while chased by a crowd makes you run faster not slower usually but i guess you could imagine with probabilities that if enough people chase you one of them is bound to be someone that runs really fast.

So him being slow would actually be you being fast.

Or yeah they motivate each other to run faster and cover more ground since they are a group and have more eyes than one isolated person.

I suggested punching because it would be the easiest to have access to, no weapons required just shift+right click immediatly, the response time can be very fast, compared to needing to find someone with a weapon to tell them which person is causing trouble and by then they are already gone and slowing them down isn't possible anymore.

If there is a group mechanic and stunning you could even add armors to the game since stunning would bypass them but would protect a lone villager from getting stabbed/shot (at least one time).

DestinyCall · 2019-09-26 17:50:57

I think multiple chasers being able to run faster as a group would make more sense than the target running slower when chased by multiple people.

I'd also like to see some way to stun or disarm an attacker. So if you see a fellow villager get attacked, you can intervene to stop the attack and gain time to work out what is happening. Right now the only way to intervene is to stab the attacker. But they might have a good reason for attacking the other player, so killing them might let the "real" bad guy get away. Having the option to stun or disarm would give people a chance to work out what is happening and react appropriately.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-09-26 17:51:29)

fug · 2019-09-26 18:00:37

Why not just reintroduce a snowball-esque mechanic? Something that slows you down when hit so you can catch up to someone instead of trying to do some weird moving mechanic.

Maybe you toss a net on someone and they're slowed for 10-15 seconds (which is going to be slightly obvious because nets are big) or do something like that has been brought up before like a bolas? This allows for someone to be slowed and then you kill them. Of course these items need a decent amount of range otherwise the stalemate of running away from each other continues.

Players who are hit with a bolas or net drop their current held item until the status wears off in which they're then holding said item or maybe it just gets destroyed in the process (though that makes nets hella expensive to toss on people.) Though we still have an issue where you can't ever beat an armed bow if they growl first so maybe nets or bolas have range 4~5 so a bow isn't impossible to beat?

Like the movement speed mechanic sounds incredibly silly like absolutely silly. Can you imagine the proper way for a group to travel is for everyone to point their knives at the leader growling? I mean if they wanted to be safe they could travel with snowballs instead which again just breaks any sort of game immersion. "Okay guys anyone else coming to the next town over? Grab your knives and snowballs then follow me! Choo choo here comes the growling train."

Two round stones + rope = bolas
Net is already in the game.

Dodge · 2019-09-26 18:10:54

fug wrote:

...

Having a griefer throw nets on people to slow them get close and stab them sounds like instakill with extra steps.

It needs to be a group mechanic otherwise it's pointless since it will benefit griefers too.

Also an angry mob chasing one person doesn't sound silly it sounds like something that would totally happen.

Dodge · 2019-09-26 18:28:53

Also maybe there could be a visual indicator when someone is growling with the murder mouth off screen

Something like this but animated could be funny :

Last edited by Dodge (2019-09-26 18:29:03)

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-09-26 00:13:35

Undergoing PvP Changes

#2 2019-09-26 00:30:55

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#3 2019-09-26 00:35:15

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#4 2019-09-26 05:51:35

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#5 2019-09-26 06:12:13

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#6 2019-09-26 06:22:19

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#7 2019-09-26 06:24:42

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#8 2019-09-26 06:26:38

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#9 2019-09-26 06:29:42

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#10 2019-09-26 06:31:05

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#11 2019-09-26 06:59:32

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#12 2019-09-26 07:12:04

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#13 2019-09-26 08:15:14

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#14 2019-09-26 15:49:11

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#15 2019-09-26 15:57:33

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#16 2019-09-26 16:05:04

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#17 2019-09-26 17:12:15

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#18 2019-09-26 17:45:28

Re: Undergoing PvP Changes

#19 2019-09-26 17:50:57

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#20 2019-09-26 18:00:37

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#21 2019-09-26 18:10:54

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#22 2019-09-26 18:28:53

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