Unpopular opinion

Maeluna · 2019-07-19 18:36:41

Hindsight edit : no one has to read this. It is not aimed at hurting but it certainly reads rant-y.

Good evening (or otherwise if applicable) to you, the reader.

I am a forum lurker. I am not sure if I ever posted here before.

My opinion is as follows :

Powergaming will be the end of this game.

I won't cite any name because I couldn't be bothered to match IG players with Discord or forum members or any kind of smoke signal.

But time and again I have seen players, griefers or otherwise, getting an unfair advantage through either ridiculous abuse of obtuse game mechanics, or through using specific mods.

Current worst gripes being the zoom out mod and the one allowing to see through trees.

I for one welcomed the recent changes to killing.
Grieferdance was such an open door to abuse that for a very long time I was 100% sure Jason had always intended this game as a murder simulator.

In the same vein, shift+ right click is in the right direction, by eliminating "accident" murders.

Swords & in-family-cursing & putting families closer together = radical shift in the game.

I wouldn't be the first one to complain about this, but at this point the artist's vision CLEARLY isn't dry yet on the whole factions thing.
My personal suggestion which won't be read, would be that, piling 100% language distortion on top of it is overkill. Perhaps make the initial language barrier 50% distortion ? Or dependent on eve spawn distance ? Or to increase with each murder between families ?

Back to the powergaming, and sorry if this feels a little bit ranty. If I spent hours formatting it wouldn't feel as honest to me.

When you and three guys charge with swords into a 20-people village, of course the element of surprise will yield results. But you should still expect to get overwhelmed.

I always play the game the same : socialize, trying to increase city population and means to produce food, keeping an eye out for griefers.
This last part is completely impossible with the base game.

The griefer shouldn't have less means of hurting the town (although some, like covering the entire town in needles are ridiculous and shouldn't even be a thing) but the main point that makes griefer hunting so tedious, is that everyone looks the same aside from the name written miles (no screen bragging) from the player in chicken scratch at the bottom of the screen. IT DOESN'T HELP.

I know mods are a thing, but they aren't a thing if the vision for this game is to be a public-friendly game. Not everything has to be Dwarf Fortress.
A game about survival should reward memory skills, time management, planning, adaptability. It currently does.
It shouldn't reward software-editing and software-procuring (in this day and age, mostly Google-fu) skills. It currently does anyway.

ollj · 2019-07-19 19:04:37

its pretty opensource, so cheats (unfair competetive advantages) are to be expected.
the proper label is cheating, not just powergaming.

transparent or smaller trees are literally a wallhack.

Last edited by ollj (2019-07-19 19:06:30)

pein · 2019-07-19 20:30:18

lol

the game turns slowly into a visual novel or penguin club

it's not griefers dance when it can be used defensively
i for one, dodged 80% of noob shots, and killed the griefers who lurked around camp
was a skill based matchup where the element of surprise was present, yet you could have minimal chance to retaliate
now evwery moron who cant fill a bowl with berries under 1 mintue, can shoot anyone who is moving
didn't made lag better, didn't made anything better
there are even more griefers, just now they don't even need skill, just bad intention

if a survival game doesn't reward skills, is no longer a survival game, not like is hard to step away or aim a tile
there is no xp system or skill system either so having basic understanding of which of the clicks you use on which tile isn't a high requirement

the higher zoom should be default

Jojigirl · 2019-07-19 20:31:32

What is the transparent trees mod? Haven't heard of that one.

Peaches · 2019-07-19 20:42:53

I could understand the zoom mod, the game screen is rather tiny and the camera can be finicky, and other parts of the mods Im aware of do fix the name issue by placing it over characters...

But see-through trees is literally cheating, in my eyes. I can't really condone that.

PXshadow · 2019-07-19 21:07:11

The game is completely authoritative, both the zoom out mod and not being able to see things behind trees could be changed on the server.
Power-gaming/macro based clients will be the future of the game, the open source nature allows it to a very high degree. And the mod development will hopefully keep pushing the game to the limits, and I think personally that's a great thing. As for the unfair complaints, The rules are set by the server, everything else by the clients is fair game. I think quasi rule setting by the community is not how the game grows and adapts. I'm right there with Jason with letting things play out and having rough edges.

schmloo · 2019-07-19 21:17:05

pein wrote:

lol
the game turns slowly into a visual novel or penguin club
it's not griefers dance when it can be used defensively
i for one, dodged 80% of noob shots, and killed the griefers who lurked around camp
was a skill based matchup where the element of surprise was present, yet you could have minimal chance to retaliate
now evwery moron who cant fill a bowl with berries under 1 mintue, can shoot anyone who is moving
didn't made lag better, didn't made anything better
there are even more griefers, just now they don't even need skill, just bad intention
if a survival game doesn't reward skills, is no longer a survival game, not like is hard to step away or aim a tile
there is no xp system or skill system either so having basic understanding of which of the clicks you use on which tile isn't a high requirement

the higher zoom should be default

I’m very happy with the idea that the “combat” system does not require skill. I agree with the logic that if you want a family member dead, you should have an unobstructed chance at killing them. If the masses disagree with you, they should be healed. Mistakes are made, but that is in the game’s nature — it’s down to the players to form and develop society. If you want to combat these mistakes, think up a way utilising the in-game tools you’re given to both make allowances for people who don’t properly assess a situation and just want to try out the pads because they haven’t yet, and issue a fair judgement on a killer/potential griefer. As far as I’m aware, if you do, it’d be the same as discovering fire at this point. As for swords, I personally believe there should be a potential second chance, like being able to block with a sword.

The “skill” involved should be ensuring supplies are both in abundance and easier to come by for future generations. Two of the big ones in late-game cities are people being bothered to supply rabbits to a huge populace, and supply of firewood. Unfortunately it’s difficult to find people who don’t have their own preplanned goals to set up businesses such as lumber mills (and composting for this, for that matter, would be very inefficient).

I’m aware that I digressed a little bit at the end of this but I believe it all ties in together.

Last edited by schmloo (2019-07-20 03:47:02)

DiscardedSlinky · 2019-07-19 21:22:06

Listen I have a see through Trees "mod" that I made myself in Photoshop. I made it because my town got griefed by twins hiding things behind trees and I've had that happen waayyy too much. It's not fair that they are able to so freely hide things and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

I know it's easier to see this "mod" as evil, but I've stopped 3 tree griefings and returned COUNTLESS tools and clothes to town. Griefers are going to grief no mater what the community thinks is right or wrong and I'm not going to put myself at their mercy by not using a tool available.

ollj · 2019-07-19 21:31:44

how dare you to steal those tools and from the trees!

Last edited by ollj (2019-07-19 21:32:03)

Tarr · 2019-07-19 21:46:01

Jojigirl wrote:

What is the transparent trees mod? Haven't heard of that one.

It's a mod to see behind trees. There also exists a tiny tree mod but it isn't distributed because people with bad intentions would just use it to hide things even more than they do.

Basically it exists to fight back against people hiding shit and what not.

pein · 2019-07-21 09:03:08

yet healing system requires skill, and preparation what people don't have

the bad thing when arguing with morons is that once you go down to their level they beat you cause they got more experience
i seen people who got healed then they shoot you cause they butthurt
there is a reason why people get shot, and there was a reason why people didnt
just because you are angry, doesn't mean you are right
that's why skill based combat is needed
if you are unskilled on everythign else, you are unskilled to decide who deserves to be killed or who not
you are unskilled to lead a town and you got no right to order people around

and as far as this game goes, all clothes, weapons go to females and 90% of people believe a female griefer over a male worker
mostly males are cursed and people troll males
if you remove the skill from killing you remove the justice too
this is also very dumb cause you cant even outrun a griefer, once you make a turn inside a building you are already dead
so even if you see it comign you are dead

and the biggest reason jason changed it cause he "tried it out" and couldnt stab others
in a world where every noofuck can kill you and you cant do anythign about it, every person who carries an open weapon or jokes about killing or any of that, needs to be dealt with but then a chain of noobfuckness goes around and a lot of people die

the biggest problem with you people is that you cant think logically
you only take the only example where you are the good guy and everyone else is bad guy
you are not a good guy, no one is
everyone is subjective
everyone will think they are the good guy
and this system doesn't favor good guys or bad guys, it favors attackers
the one who thinks about backstabbing others first

ofc you happy when they remove skill cause you don't have any skill
people who had zero chance and had to moderate themselves, now out flexing how good they are

statistically speaking, there are more unskilled killers now, and more kills too
and it became a legit meta to kill others for the heck of it
is it a good story? no
is it a good experience? i don't know what you enjoy about killing civilians who don't even know you are there
back in the days i gave you weapons just to prove that the skill gap is so big that i even let you attack first
you cant call this combat, that would mean that everyoen has weapon and they somewhat agree upon a fight, and they got somewhat equal chance of winning
with no hp or turns, this is the dumbest unbalanced thing i ever seen
checkers has more strategy to it

and i cant see it how in the world would mean that people will heal the useful players
useful players are invisible cause they work
i never really seen successful heals

when a city has pads, it runs out quite quick when a murder spree comes
if you pay attention on who gets healed, well lot of them wont worth wasting a pad

last time we dealt with a swordman, i was healed twice and i healed others 3x in a duration of 3 min with 7 people involved, with 1 casuality on our side

the big dog fucks the small, that is a simple "combat system"

im still thinking jason is too lazy and too stubborn to make a proper dueling system
i don't even see why the heck there is combat in this game, like he said you must kill the griefers to get rid of them, guess what, they kill you first cause they got more time to do so, if not they are dumb as fuck they ever say their intentions
now that comes to the point where are weapons need to be taken, but that makes you a target, if you don't have a weapon you are a target
so basically if you don't have a weapon then get one, and if you have one, use it, hard to justify all this bullshit in this "system" otherwise
he tried to make the game 2d rust with all the bad elements of that game, leaving out all the good ones

and don't use the word "chance", as long as you attack first you are guaranteed to kill
there is no rng involved at all, it's just intention

btw i could fid a reason why one should be killed or not, i can track multiple people on what they work on, what they looking for, just i generally don't want to get involved, same goes for kills, i just don't want to be part of it

same goes to supplies, when the game cant tell apart who made pads, and who fed sheep, so who owns them and who should use them, then is no skill involved on that either
a griefer wont make pads to save others, they hide what others made , which is why your logic doesn't work that way
people lack the skill of healing you so the more skill you got, the more clothes you got, just makes you a bigger target
no one evercares who got those supplies, they save everyone or they stab everyone involved
then they run out of pads and cant save anyone
and most people wont make pads again

don't know about you but i don't play this way, i could lock myself up and deny all the supplies i make but then that would be the problem
i just don't see how it's a good gameplay to prepare for something that might or might not happen and still get fucked over just as easy

btw i didn't used the tiny tree mod at first, cause it's weird
but then one gmae i was a kdi in storm town, got 3 arrows as a kid, and gave to adults to deal with the bears
some griefer who acted like normal in front of others, just hide it and did more bullshit when no one was looking
that was the first i put the mod on, and i found carts of stuff around that town
sure can be used both ways but dumb people are dumb outside the game too, and smart people don't actually need it that much, but it makes it more convenient, so yeah, if you lack the technical skill, you probably lack the ability of judging others too
and this unbreakable morality bullshit is boring
jason isn't perect, his vision isn't perfect, the balance is far from perfect
he made mosquitoes that small so people wont see them
i don't know whats up with his denial for zoom either
his choices arent based on anything, they arent popular or based on any balancing
these mods arent game breaking or unfair, they are free and you can use it as well
and i don't really see why arent part of the game
for example, like 90% of people will quit when the last female is dead
just because you don't know or don't see, wont make your game least shitty when you realize it
the zoom is quite needed to build any decent size structure which can sustain a population density that big

the bigger a sheep pen is, the less materials it uses for the tiles, 3x3 has one tile in center, 5x5 has 9, center tiles don't need walls, simplified
now you need a 7x7 to have an inner size of 5x5, you cant even see a normal shaped structure without zoom
and if you drop items on tiles to navigate, you cause others a whole lot of trouble to clean it up
and the fast roads for short distances are even more annoying
basically just because some people cant imagine how it's possible, or do themselves, they just throw shit around

one example is a description of a life Jason gave:
he made a fence and planted some milkweed, then her daughter did a new one
and he became jelous of her daughter and took her hoe
and was thinking about murdering her out of jelousy
now this maybe interesting once, but this is sooo slow paced bullshit
it's one htign to take it slower, to be slower, or forced to be slower

and he basically balanced the whole milkweed farmign around this
and the ropes are part of everything

on the other hand, he blanced iron, on shortest route between veins and he popped in to a few games and seen a few stacks of iron, so he nerfed it into the ground
same goes for water, he popped in at a time in a few families, and nerfed t accordingly
now the oil

so basically the tech tree top is nerfed, the bottom is made easier, you can basically make unlimited food easily if you know where and what
the water, the tools, the ol is hard af, thegathering of resources is hard

so basically there are 2 groups: those who talk and stay in a small place for a whole life
and those who grind and work all life
the first group depends on the second or dies
the second keeps the first alive out of pity/entertainment
now killing is part of the first category, requires zero skill

i don't know about you guys, but if you already see you got griefers, and you cant defeat them by skill
then basically you got a choice of wasting your time, get killed, quit or run after them like an idiot
and even if you kill them, you gotta deal with others who think "killling is bad" but ruining a whole city is ok
how is different of not being able to kill anyone? they win anyway if they ruin your plans
the number of griefers is higher than before and the people are more annoying ever since the change

RodneyC86 · 2019-07-21 09:49:18

Much as I do agree with Pein, I don't like how the skill in combat comes from some wonky peculiarity in how the server handles a kill command and lag. As a person who played from a country with 250-300 ms lag it is infuriating. I never practiced combat skill but I don't think it takes a genius PVPer to say that sort of latency makes a big difference.

I don't even think the fact that attacks never miss is an issue, it's just that any hit at all is lethal. Even if a rudimentary hitpoints and attack damage system is introduced we will have a game more balanced against griefers.

Like say everyone starts with 20HP as a child, grows 100HP at adulthood, maybe give a small vitality edge to males. This is so we don't have to put up with 4 year olds who can somehow murder an entire village.

Attack damage depends on what you are holding, gender and age , bare fists maybe 4 per hit , limit to one hit per second. Straight shaft 8 per hit, knife 12 per hit, sword maybe even up to 20.

So at minimum it takes 5 seconds of engaged combat (players should be square locked when in combat with another player, ala RuneScape, but players have to stay in combat at least 3 seconds once engaged) , to kill a player in his/her prime . If combat sounds like sticks clashing, swords swishing and fists impacting are added, people can respond and aid

TLDR: Killing shouldn't be a one hit thing, there should be enough time to react by bystanders.

Eh I guess I still like this game, though I haven't played in a month since I found other games to play. I do hope this gets sorted someday..

Last edited by RodneyC86 (2019-07-21 09:51:29)

pein · 2019-07-21 16:40:44

well there are options

most simple would be a duel button, where the two people agree to kill each other, or just practice
when you accept it, you are transferred to an arena, and turn based, like 8 hits or KO
if you reject, you get debuffed, like your speed gets lower, and you lose health bars for 10 min
or even ambush like , no decline option

without skills and hp bar it wouldn't be much of a fight it's just randomness but still better than now
at the end you could spare a life or kill them

one of harry potter games i played, had spells and you could attack, dodge, reflect, it gained speed each reflect and was higher damage, kinda like a pong game, was simple, left and right click and movement

combat, fight, means it lasts a few seconds and both players got a chance
now if age, hp, and other stuff matters that's nice
if you want to kil lsomeone, at least wager with your life

AmberA · 2019-07-21 17:12:00

I'd love to see a less lethal combat system such as pushing or punching. Yesterday there was a little boy who came into the kitchen and spent his entire life taking on and off his hat to annoy people. In griefing this is minor since it's just clothes he's not hurting anyone but he's bothering many people for an extended amount of time. This continued till he was around eight till someone stabbed him and then I rushing and held the bowl of pads so no one could heal him. However if we could push him out of the room or do something that is non-leathal that maybe stuns him then that would solve the problem without having to murder a kid.

RodneyC86 · 2019-07-21 22:40:18

AmberA wrote:

I'd love to see a less lethal combat system such as pushing or punching. Yesterday there was a little boy who came into the kitchen and spent his entire life taking on and off his hat to annoy people. In griefing this is minor since it's just clothes he's not hurting anyone but he's bothering many people for an extended amount of time. This continued till he was around eight till someone stabbed him and then I rushing and held the bowl of pads so no one could heal him. However if we could push him out of the room or do something that is non-leathal that maybe stuns him then that would solve the problem without having to murder a kid.

The cry for non lethal ways to deal with this shit has been asked for so many times I lost count. Living in OHOL now is basically dealing with people who escalate way too quickly just because there's no choice. (Like that meme)

Would be nice to sock these people in the face and give them a black eye that stays for 2 minutes that alert people some shit happened . Gives people a chance to ask what happened as well and not default to stabbing.

arkajalka · 2019-07-21 23:12:30

Deffinetly agree with the combat system needing to have some kinda "skill" based system. Its retarded that people who dont bring any of the iron, create any of the food or structures are allowed to destroy everything so easily.

Maybe you could do rock, paper, scissors type of fight.

Slash, poke, slam. one counters other etc. Two sames and you end up in draw. Add some kinda system to do the attacks. Instead of shift you would have to press arrow keys. Visual animations for each attack type so you could see how the offender is gonna attack and counter it with the opposing strike.

schmloo · 2019-07-22 00:21:04

pein wrote:

yet healing system requires skill, and preparation what people don't have
the bad thing when arguing with morons is that once you go down to their level they beat you cause they got more experience
i seen people who got healed then they shoot you cause they butthurt
there is a reason why people get shot, and there was a reason why people didnt
just because you are angry, doesn't mean you are right
that's why skill based combat is needed
if you are unskilled on everythign else, you are unskilled to decide who deserves to be killed or who not
you are unskilled to lead a town and you got no right to order people around
and as far as this game goes, all clothes, weapons go to females and 90% of people believe a female griefer over a male worker
mostly males are cursed and people troll males
if you remove the skill from killing you remove the justice too
this is also very dumb cause you cant even outrun a griefer, once you make a turn inside a building you are already dead
so even if you see it comign you are dead
and the biggest reason jason changed it cause he "tried it out" and couldnt stab others
in a world where every noofuck can kill you and you cant do anythign about it, every person who carries an open weapon or jokes about killing or any of that, needs to be dealt with but then a chain of noobfuckness goes around and a lot of people die
the biggest problem with you people is that you cant think logically
you only take the only example where you are the good guy and everyone else is bad guy
you are not a good guy, no one is
everyone is subjective
everyone will think they are the good guy
and this system doesn't favor good guys or bad guys, it favors attackers
the one who thinks about backstabbing others first
ofc you happy when they remove skill cause you don't have any skill
people who had zero chance and had to moderate themselves, now out flexing how good they are
statistically speaking, there are more unskilled killers now, and more kills too
and it became a legit meta to kill others for the heck of it
is it a good story? no
is it a good experience? i don't know what you enjoy about killing civilians who don't even know you are there
back in the days i gave you weapons just to prove that the skill gap is so big that i even let you attack first
you cant call this combat, that would mean that everyoen has weapon and they somewhat agree upon a fight, and they got somewhat equal chance of winning
with no hp or turns, this is the dumbest unbalanced thing i ever seen
checkers has more strategy to it
and i cant see it how in the world would mean that people will heal the useful players
useful players are invisible cause they work
i never really seen successful heals
when a city has pads, it runs out quite quick when a murder spree comes
if you pay attention on who gets healed, well lot of them wont worth wasting a pad
last time we dealt with a swordman, i was healed twice and i healed others 3x in a duration of 3 min with 7 people involved, with 1 casuality on our side
the big dog fucks the small, that is a simple "combat system"
im still thinking jason is too lazy and too stubborn to make a proper dueling system
i don't even see why the heck there is combat in this game, like he said you must kill the griefers to get rid of them, guess what, they kill you first cause they got more time to do so, if not they are dumb as fuck they ever say their intentions
now that comes to the point where are weapons need to be taken, but that makes you a target, if you don't have a weapon you are a target
so basically if you don't have a weapon then get one, and if you have one, use it, hard to justify all this bullshit in this "system" otherwise
he tried to make the game 2d rust with all the bad elements of that game, leaving out all the good ones
and don't use the word "chance", as long as you attack first you are guaranteed to kill
there is no rng involved at all, it's just intention
btw i could fid a reason why one should be killed or not, i can track multiple people on what they work on, what they looking for, just i generally don't want to get involved, same goes for kills, i just don't want to be part of it
same goes to supplies, when the game cant tell apart who made pads, and who fed sheep, so who owns them and who should use them, then is no skill involved on that either
a griefer wont make pads to save others, they hide what others made , which is why your logic doesn't work that way
people lack the skill of healing you so the more skill you got, the more clothes you got, just makes you a bigger target
no one evercares who got those supplies, they save everyone or they stab everyone involved
then they run out of pads and cant save anyone
and most people wont make pads again
don't know about you but i don't play this way, i could lock myself up and deny all the supplies i make but then that would be the problem
i just don't see how it's a good gameplay to prepare for something that might or might not happen and still get fucked over just as easy
btw i didn't used the tiny tree mod at first, cause it's weird
but then one gmae i was a kdi in storm town, got 3 arrows as a kid, and gave to adults to deal with the bears
some griefer who acted like normal in front of others, just hide it and did more bullshit when no one was looking
that was the first i put the mod on, and i found carts of stuff around that town
sure can be used both ways but dumb people are dumb outside the game too, and smart people don't actually need it that much, but it makes it more convenient, so yeah, if you lack the technical skill, you probably lack the ability of judging others too
and this unbreakable morality bullshit is boring
jason isn't perect, his vision isn't perfect, the balance is far from perfect
he made mosquitoes that small so people wont see them
i don't know whats up with his denial for zoom either
his choices arent based on anything, they arent popular or based on any balancing
these mods arent game breaking or unfair, they are free and you can use it as well
and i don't really see why arent part of the game
for example, like 90% of people will quit when the last female is dead
just because you don't know or don't see, wont make your game least shitty when you realize it
the zoom is quite needed to build any decent size structure which can sustain a population density that big
the bigger a sheep pen is, the less materials it uses for the tiles, 3x3 has one tile in center, 5x5 has 9, center tiles don't need walls, simplified
now you need a 7x7 to have an inner size of 5x5, you cant even see a normal shaped structure without zoom
and if you drop items on tiles to navigate, you cause others a whole lot of trouble to clean it up
and the fast roads for short distances are even more annoying
basically just because some people cant imagine how it's possible, or do themselves, they just throw shit around
one example is a description of a life Jason gave:
he made a fence and planted some milkweed, then her daughter did a new one
and he became jelous of her daughter and took her hoe
and was thinking about murdering her out of jelousy
now this maybe interesting once, but this is sooo slow paced bullshit
it's one htign to take it slower, to be slower, or forced to be slower
and he basically balanced the whole milkweed farmign around this
and the ropes are part of everything
on the other hand, he blanced iron, on shortest route between veins and he popped in to a few games and seen a few stacks of iron, so he nerfed it into the ground
same goes for water, he popped in at a time in a few families, and nerfed t accordingly
now the oil
so basically the tech tree top is nerfed, the bottom is made easier, you can basically make unlimited food easily if you know where and what
the water, the tools, the ol is hard af, thegathering of resources is hard
so basically there are 2 groups: those who talk and stay in a small place for a whole life
and those who grind and work all life
the first group depends on the second or dies
the second keeps the first alive out of pity/entertainment
now killing is part of the first category, requires zero skill
i don't know about you guys, but if you already see you got griefers, and you cant defeat them by skill
then basically you got a choice of wasting your time, get killed, quit or run after them like an idiot
and even if you kill them, you gotta deal with others who think "killling is bad" but ruining a whole city is ok
how is different of not being able to kill anyone? they win anyway if they ruin your plans
the number of griefers is higher than before and the people are more annoying ever since the change

Wow that was a long read. I like to respond to things as soon as I see em so I apologise if I overlook anything. I’ll edit as I go along in case I miss things out.

First of all I want to state that I do agree that the combat system is HEAVILY broken. But I don’t think skill requirement is the right way to go about fixing it.

Fundamentally, combat, or some form of forceful punishment, is needed to keep non-immersive antagonistic behaviour in check. This doesn’t mean I condone roleplay griefing, but whatever, I’ll play along until the realisation hits that it damages the game rather than adds a rich dynamic.

I understand that skill is the defining part of who deserves to live and who deserves to die. Survival of the fittest, or the big dog fucks the small, to carry on the metaphor. But pushing the combat system to requiring a degree of skill in PvP interaction also pushes the game into a direction where war and combat is heavily emphasised. Granted combat is definitely one of the biggest impacting factors on the development of human civilisation as we know it, but gameplay-wise it goes against the game’s core mechanic — rebuilding civilisation together. Not struggling against each other. Combat in my opinion should (even though it’s not, but we have many griefers and drama queens to thank for that) be political in nature, where actions are black or white, kill or save. People should use their heads, not their xbox 360 controllers.

I know I’ve suggested it before and I’m repeating it, but I have a rough idea of how a “survival of the fittest” mindset should be achieved. The people who work the hardest and complete more tasks for a town should have an upper hand against people who only play the game to munch berries until old enough to carry a sword, then head out and massacre an entire village. Or, parallel with this, people who live only to stalk the edges of town for 20 years, killing off stragglers/murdering the sheep/hiding important stuff from town behind trees. Note that it’s “tasks completed”; picking up a bowl 200 times before age 8/12 would be uh, very broken. Originally the idea was that people would be split into different categories or tiers, if you will, which defines that higher tiers can kill lower tiers (...easier?).

As for people who think killing is bad, they’re idiots. Extreme measures are required to suppress extreme damage. Pacifism doesn’t work like it does in the real word, as no griefer is going to get inspiration from them saying “make lov not warr heal evry one... guys how to make more pads?”. I’ll give you that one, dealing with someone with good intentions but bad consequence is a moral and situational difficulty.

I’m sorry I can’t remember who suggested it, but someone proposed a visible karma system. Bad players have red names or devil horns or red eyes, whatever fits, and good players have blue name, halos, angel wings... you get the gist of it. Only problem with it is redemption would be exceptionally difficult, and would encourage stabbing newborns, but overall it’d do less harm than good.

Last edited by schmloo (2019-07-22 00:23:23)

RodneyC86 · 2019-07-22 04:24:23

I don't think a karma system with visible marks will considered by J .

Come on Jason, you want rich dynamics right? I hardly call relationships between two villagers only being one of three states (Friends, Neutral, Killdeathmode) a rich dynamic

Where's the annoyance? Where's the fistfights? Grabbing by each other throat and wrestling for scarce food or disagreement on where to go with limited iron? But through it all maybe they can still de-escalate by bystanders and find reconciliation later? Those always make good stories.

Right now, if someone rubs you the wrong way, only next option after telling them off is stab them, and if you do decide to tell them off before you escalate to stabbing, you better not get stabbed first since you told them off, and we have hypersensitive jerkasses who think they are infallible.

Put in a proper combat system geezus. As someone above said, it probably shouldn't be skill based but should be political. Right now, one hit kills is not just political at all .paradoxically, when you can end an entity so easily politics collapse and chaos results.

Adding Healthpoints, combat being a bit more protracted and actions of people around you can influence the outcome, is far more interesting than ninja simulator.

If a griefer wants to murder they will actually have to lure person into a remote area no one can hear them scream. Think about it, isn't it weird someone can knife someone so easily around a campfire. In a non dysfunctional group. A scuffle would happen rather than everyone watching helplessly.

Tarr · 2019-07-22 04:34:35

RodneyC86 wrote:

I don't think a karma system with visible marks will considered by J .
Come on Jason, you want rich dynamics right? I hardly call relationships between two villagers only being one of three states (Friends, Neutral, Killdeathmode) a rich dynamic
Where's the annoyance? Where's the fistfights? Grabbing by each other throat and wrestling for scarce food or disagreement on where to go with limited iron? But through it all maybe they can still de-escalate by bystanders and find reconciliation later? Those always make good stories.
Right now, if someone rubs you the wrong way, only next option after telling them off is stab them, and if you do decide to tell them off before you escalate to stabbing, you better not get stabbed first since you told them off, and we have hypersensitive jerkasses who think they are infallible.
Put in a proper combat system geezus. As someone above said, it probably shouldn't be skill based but should be political. Right now, one hit kills is not just political at all .paradoxically, when you can end an entity so easily politics collapse and chaos results.
Adding Healthpoints, combat being a bit more protracted and actions of people around you can influence the outcome, is far more interesting than ninja simulator.
If a griefer wants to murder they will actually have to lure person into a remote area no one can hear them scream. Think about it, isn't it weird someone can knife someone so easily around a campfire. In a non dysfunctional group. A scuffle would happen rather than everyone watching helplessly.

I mean you're definitely not wrong about a lot of this.

In the current game there's no reason to be telling someone off unless you're specifically doing it for DRAMA or because you're looking to get yourself stabbed. A one hit kill assassin simulator is not interesting as there's no reasonable escalation in game to want you to actually harm someone.

"Oh Greg moved my hoe so I can either yell at him and hope he doesn't stab me or kill him myself and not get stabbed." Who in their right mindset believes proper escalation in a game would be slight annoyance to straight murdering someone for a bit of an inconvenience. It doesn't make sense from a roleplay perspective or a gameplay perspective to shoot from 0 - 100 instantly.

While combat shouldn't be 100% skill on the flip side it also shouldn't be a 0% skill thing either. All skill makes it where new players are basically slaughtered by those who know the system while no skill makes it where everyone can slaughter. At least in a skilled system there's actually defensive moves available instead of just running until one of the two players starve to death... (which means if you starve sub 30 you can return and attempt to kill the same player again. Big old yikes there.)

Last edited by Tarr (2019-07-22 04:35:05)

RodneyC86 · 2019-07-22 04:47:54

Tarr wrote:

RodneyC86 wrote:
I don't think a karma system with visible marks will considered by J .
Come on Jason, you want rich dynamics right? I hardly call relationships between two villagers only being one of three states (Friends, Neutral, Killdeathmode) a rich dynamic
Where's the annoyance? Where's the fistfights? Grabbing by each other throat and wrestling for scarce food or disagreement on where to go with limited iron? But through it all maybe they can still de-escalate by bystanders and find reconciliation later? Those always make good stories.
Right now, if someone rubs you the wrong way, only next option after telling them off is stab them, and if you do decide to tell them off before you escalate to stabbing, you better not get stabbed first since you told them off, and we have hypersensitive jerkasses who think they are infallible.
Put in a proper combat system geezus. As someone above said, it probably shouldn't be skill based but should be political. Right now, one hit kills is not just political at all .paradoxically, when you can end an entity so easily politics collapse and chaos results.
Adding Healthpoints, combat being a bit more protracted and actions of people around you can influence the outcome, is far more interesting than ninja simulator.
If a griefer wants to murder they will actually have to lure person into a remote area no one can hear them scream. Think about it, isn't it weird someone can knife someone so easily around a campfire. In a non dysfunctional group. A scuffle would happen rather than everyone watching helplessly.
I mean you're definitely not wrong about a lot of this.
In the current game there's no reason to be telling someone off unless you're specifically doing it for DRAMA or because you're looking to get yourself stabbed. A one hit kill assassin simulator is not interesting as there's no reasonable escalation in game to want you to actually harm someone.
"Oh Greg moved my hoe so I can either yell at him and hope he doesn't stab me or kill him myself and not get stabbed." Who in their right mindset believes proper escalation in a game would be slight annoyance to straight murdering someone for a bit of an inconvenience. It doesn't make sense from a roleplay perspective or a gameplay perspective to shoot from 0 - 100 instantly.
While combat shouldn't be 100% skill on the flip side it also shouldn't be a 0% skill thing either. All skill makes it where new players are basically slaughtered by those who know the system while no skill makes it where everyone can slaughter. At least in a skilled system there's actually defensive moves available instead of just running until one of the two players starve to death... (which means if you starve sub 30 you can return and attempt to kill the same player again. Big old yikes there.)

I think as far as skill goes it should be about timing your telling off and to at least ensure you are not in the middle of nowhere and have backup from the village folk. Or choosing a better time to tell off a guy with a knife in backpack, like when you can get at least another person to follow you to tell someone off. So if the knife guy gets aggressive it's 2v1 . now it feels like it is almost never a good idea to tell said person off. Even if the backup takes out the guy you are probably dead.

pein · 2019-07-22 07:17:40

i think i scrapped 6 broken tools and a few excessive ones, and a guy just took a blade when we wanted to make new shears
i commented on it, nothing awful, nothing offensive
later i was stabbed by him, dunno if he just wanted to kill anyone, and i was the one who was closer or just wanted my apron
but basically i should have killed him for picking up a blade?

other life a guy was running around with a bow for like straight 5 min inside city, got tired of it, he was even following me, i changed directions, so i was sure he follows
i stab him and then a dumb girl blamed on me that the sheep are dead
before i told that they were long dead before i was born, i was stabbed

every one of this lifes is the same, someone starts killing and you either run out of pads, or everyone dies
i seem to get on middle of bs all the time
if i kill a griefer i get kileld for it, if i ignore a killer i get blamed for his actions

healing isn't on the same level as killing, that would make that comparation equal
to kill, you need one tool, you don't even have to make it, you can just pick one up and you can do quite a lot of recipes with a knife
bow, you need it for goose, sheep then occasional bears
imagien you got to make your own weapon to be able to use it and when you die it turns back to skewer/steel blade
most of this killers are so lazy that they wont even get a kindling and start smithing for a knife they steal or beg for it

to heal someone, you need pads, you need a needle, others can also use it, needs the knowledge to use it, and people don't really have it, cause most of times they don't have to make it. it's like the pies. someone makes 24 pies at once, then it's all ok. for 30 min no one ever makes a pie. when all is gone, people start to make new pies. tree planting? milkweed farming? it's op, is good, no one does it cause it's boring.
same goes for fences. you could make a castle and defend but maybe no one is near you and you die in 60 min and just wasted your time.
so you are under stress, you need to know the location of pads, needle. it's consumed upon use while knives dont. you can store pads but you cant use on yourself. you cant even take the pads and needle from the victim.
and if you want new pads and needle with yarn, you got to feed 2 sheep, shear it, which needs time ,water, soil, tech level. Making a bow is possible on eve camp. Making pads on eve camps? no one does it. i could but i rather make apron.

so the deffensive side needs to be prepared, to work, to expect the attack, to keep the resources secure. the offensive side walks around chatting, spreads lies and waits for others busy. like efore at least they had to make you talk at least cause it meant when you type you wont move same time.

what you describe is a skill system
i suggested soemthing for jason and he even liked it, told me to work on it and post it on reddit but i wasn't in the mood
basically you would need to do simple tasks to archieve a proficiency
cook 1 pie, you become a trainee baker, easy enough? an icon would show near your name that you can cook
next would be 8 pies for adept baker. isn't hard, but for a mediocre player would be a good 20 min job or a a life to do it.
next woulf be 24 pies for Master Chef
now you can do much more than these, but isn't about competition, it's more like to show others what you are good at
if you see an old guy you call it old goosefucker, but maybe if you would see 15 icons next to his name then you would take back a step
anyway it shouldn't be too competitive, like you could stack 20 types of skills on you but wouldn't really matter in long run
like one life i do farming, other shepperd, other iron, sometimes just overall everything but idont mind that im not the main smith when i got the sheep for the city and i don't mind that others get sheep when i get the iron

bt just for comparison: we had duels as twins for fun, who kills who
whats the point now? the one who aims first kills the other
we had arenas- whats the point now? the one who aims first wins and no dodge is possible.
so basically removed from the game possibilities.

the issue with skill system is that multiple steps needed to make something and trackign each step is kinda impossible
you can make a raw pie and someone cooks it, then he made the pie?
even worst you got all the engine parts and you assemble it in 2 min. it takes a lifetime to make them even if you had steel, but it's a high tech recipe. now who would get the points?
someone gets adobe, you make a wall, someone gets fur you make clothes for everyone
even now is a problem, if completing recipes would give points, would make everything worse

so a non serious easy system might work
i think everyoen liked/suggested obesity system where people who work get thicc and the berry munchers get fat
could be clicks or could be overeating combined
if you new or lazy then you would not have a chance vs workers?
could be just a system where the 3 most common things you did in that life is shown

"tarr, professional bowl lifter"
"mirelli, seal skin sewer"
"aurora, ENTER key spammer"
i guess it would be funny and would indicate if someone is a griefer, like his top 3 activity would be weird ones

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