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#26 2019-05-30 17:46:00

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,779

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Also, back to the original post and one point in particular:

jasonrohrer wrote:

You're here playing OHOL right now because I coded up this crazy engine, and I stuck with my crazy vision for the game.

Because of some coding, sure.  But, because of your vision?  You're kidding yourself here Jason.  People don't play games because of someone's vision.  They play games because of how they work.  And I don't think you understand why people have find OHOL appealing exactly.  You had visions for buildings in the trailer, but PLENTY of people haven't played for the sake of buildings for a very long time.  And many people have said that they were bad, and have had doubts about their utility even with recent changes, because of spacing concerns.  What comes to mind when I think about why people have found OHOL appealing, and I say this in part on the basis of having watched Twitch streamers, comes more along these lines:

1. The game has good sounds.

2. The graphics look fairly good.

3. People like having a family.

4. There can be a sense of people working together even without saying anything to each other.

5. There's a sense of teamwork, because a lot more can get done faster than with a single person just building a town.

6. There can be a sense of providing for other people or more in low population play producing so much that you could easily provide for other people were they around.

7. The crafting system of making tools and technology can be fun and appeals to a lot of people.

You can say that's part of your vision and that's fine.  But, it's clear that it's not your whole vision.  And again, people play the game because of how the game works.  The game working isn't your vision completely and won't ever be that way, especially because players have choices in the game, and those choices will be different from what you envision to some extent.

And oh Dodge if you're reading this comes as one way as to how Jason is unduly arrogant.  It's not his vision as to why people play or do not play OHOL.  It's because of how the game works.  To make an analogy, what I type, is NOT what I think exactly, since words can't capture thoughts exactly.

Edit: And the other question looming in the background with respect to the statement above is... why are so many people no longer playing OHOL who once were?  Sure has a lot of red here... and no green at all: https://steamcharts.com/app/595690#All

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-30 17:47:43)

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#27 2019-05-30 18:42:09

WalrusesConquer
Member
Registered: 2018-07-11
Posts: 492

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Why. Does. Every. Single. Constructive. Thread. End. With. Spoonwood.


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#28 2019-05-30 20:16:15

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Spoonwood wrote:

And oh Dodge if you're reading this comes as one way as to how Jason is unduly arrogant.  It's not his vision as to why people play or do not play OHOL.  It's because of how the game works.  To make an analogy, what I type, is NOT what I think exactly, since words can't capture thoughts exactly.


And who made the game the way it works?

243789.png DUH

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#29 2019-05-30 20:45:55

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

@Spoonwood Do you think you're better at designing games than Jason?

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#30 2019-05-30 20:49:22

denriguez
Member
Registered: 2018-03-09
Posts: 251

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

WalrusesConquer wrote:

Why. Does. Every. Single. Constructive. Thread. End. With. Spoonwood.

For real. I don't post often, but I lurk quite a bit, and I get the sense that Spoon just plays and posts because he gets his jollies shouting at an indie game developer on the internet. Move on, man! It's open source--take it and go make the game you want to play if you're so dissatisfied with this one. If you need a refund, I'm sure we could find any number of folks who'll volunteer $20 if you delete your forum account and stay gone.

It's a game, man. IT. IS. A. GAME.

Spoonwood wrote:

And in the end, art is still there to get consumed by people.  It's NOT necessarily about money.  The consumption could be seeing a painting and thinking about it.  But, it's still there for other people than the artist.  And if the artist doesn't resonate with people, well, then it's not even art, it's just material like any other matter.  Or code as the case may be.

You know what normal, well-adjusted people do with art they don't appreciate? They ignore it. They don't accuse the artist of being an arrogant egomaniac because he won't change his art to suit the audience's taste.

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#31 2019-05-30 21:37:28

MrChuckleteeth
Member
Registered: 2019-05-30
Posts: 5

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Spoonwood I've read most of the recent threads and you're a little bit delusional imo.

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#32 2019-05-30 22:52:06

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,779

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Dodge wrote:

@Spoonwood Do you think you're better at designing games than Jason?

Is my answer relevant to whether Jason listens to people and takes their feedback duly into account?  Is it relevant to people expressing concerns about the game?

In both cases the answer is no.  So, it doesn't really matter what I think with respect to that, because it's simply not relevant.

The customer is always right, and Jason doesn't seem to understand that.

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#33 2019-05-30 22:55:53

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,779

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

denriguez wrote:

You know what normal, well-adjusted people do with art they don't appreciate? They ignore it. They don't accuse the artist of being an arrogant egomaniac because he won't change his art to suit the audience's taste.

I don't think it works that way with architecture.  Additionally, customers complain plenty in other venues.  Customers have a right to complain.

Anyways, you saying that Jason won't change his 'art' to suit his audience tastes should logically speak volumes about him as a game designer (given that such is true also, of course).  It means that he's a poor designer regardless of his programming ability.  After all, the game is made for people.

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#34 2019-05-30 23:39:51

Cookie
Member
Registered: 2019-05-16
Posts: 34

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

This most likely has been discussed before, but what exactly is Jason's vision?

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#35 2019-05-31 00:23:20

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,779

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Cookie wrote:

This most likely has been discussed before, but what exactly is Jason's vision?

Here's a relevant thread:

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6524

In that thread Jason comments:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Did you watch the trailer?

I'm killed at the end of my own trailer by a defensive robot who was guarding a city gate.

...

But there are other things in that trailer that you currently don't see very much of in the game.  Buildings.  City walls and gates.  Specialization.

...

My vision for the game is to have those things occurring in the game, almost always.

This indicates a good portion of why Jason saying that his vision as to why people are here doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.  Plenty of players have come and gone WITHOUT those things, and some stuck around without those things, and some critiqued buildings entirely (the spacing issue... Jason has said he would need to rework the engine to make it so that buildings don't take up space... suggesting such a non-minor change).  Some people haven't liked city walls and city gates also.

Also, I had hopes for buildings, but it looks like they aren't as good as I thought they would be.  Not at present.  Could be misunderstanding of the system, could be a bug, I don't know.  See here for details: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6743

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#36 2019-05-31 10:04:30

MultiLife
Member
Registered: 2018-07-24
Posts: 851

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Guys, people have their opinions, and the right to have them. If Spoon was doing unacceptable things, he wouldn't be here anymore. In his opinion Jason and OHOL is this and that, and he provides a lot explanations to that. And that is his opinion. I think it's great how much passion there is that makes him tirelessly debate and bring forth his thoughts and opinions.

As someone said about ignoring, let him talk his part and you talk yours, no need to get tangled up into "no u" reply wars.

Anyways I am a game designer and my concepts and ideas were just like anyone else's until I got customers and colleagues to point me directions to enhance the game experience. I saw the game through a blindfold of someone who knows the game, but people who played more than me saw different things.

Lots of stuff to say about things in the original post and lots of people to quote but I'm tired right now.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-05-31 11:23:43)


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#37 2019-05-31 10:38:23

Tarr
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 1,546

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

jasonrohrer wrote:

Tarr's recent videos are a great example of what I need:  clear demonstrations of a problem.

Don't just shout REMOVE THE WAR SWORD (a solution).  Explain the problem that you're experiencing.  Oh, one guy came in and wiped a whole village in 20 seconds, and got away unscathed.  That is a problem.  Maybe I can come up with a solution for that (a sword cool-down, and you can't hide the sword in a pack, etc.)

Even then, people just kept saying, "REMOVE THE WAR SWORD, IT RUINS THE GAME."  Really?  Hmm... that can't be right.  The war sword itself can't be the problem.  It must be something else.

And sure enough, the problem was the griefer dance, which has been with us for a whole year, but never really highlighted to me in a clear way.  I mean, a year ago, people were telling me to just remove knives.

If someone had said, "Hey, by clicking all over the place, I become invincible when people are trying to kill me," I would have seen that as a clear problem.  Again, it wasn't until Tarr's second sword video that I saw the problem clearly.  Four people chasing him, and they couldn't get him.

So the sword wasn't actually a problem.  It just laid bare an lurking problem that existed for all weapons.  And removing the sword wouldn't have fixed the underlying problem---it just would have covered up the problem.

All that said, do you realize how much better the game is with that one little thing fixed?

People asked you to remove the sword because it brought the worst aspects of the game to light. Rampant griefing that you removed any ability to deal with while turning what has basically been a cooperative game into a terrible PVP game. You introduced a shitty mechanic (swords) to get people to use another shitty mechanic (fences) because you wanted people to use private property. PvP is still a joke after the fix due to you adding autoaim to ranged weapons because snowballs exist. Melee combat devolved into who grabs a snowball first because the autoaim will make the second player drop their weapon and allow for a slow that enables you to auto kill with a melee weapon. This of course is bugged and leaves the snowball/stabbed player in a bugged state where they'll live up to three minutes if fed unless you stack more snowballs on them. The only way for you to fix the issue with swords was to basically move everyone away and keep Eves from respawning. Swords really burnt me out of this game because of how terrible playing in a constant genocide simulator is.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I mean, heck, if I had listened to you about "shelving" without understanding the problem, I probably would have given you a shelf with four slots for four baskets!  Then you really would have thought I was an idiot.


Finally, there are some times when I'm really stuck on something and request ideas.  And that's what I use the Suggestions subreddit for---when I'm completely out of ideas, I look there for inspiration.

Honestly, shelving would have been better than slot boxes even as just a wall mounted box. Why? The slot box holds ten items while costing more iron usage per slot box and costing 1.5x the milkweed requirement of a regular box. This means the only use for a slot box is basically cutting out four clicks maximum which is one of those time saves that are not worth the effort at all. I get you can't put a million items in one container but between making baskets not decay, and being more expensive and less useful you basically released dead content. I am happy that you fixed all the bowl stuff since that was just a nightmare trying to figure out what's containable and what's not as that was valuable to making the game better (but doesn't help our clutter issues.) A shelf on the other hand, would have been useful because putting an impassible object on a wall means you could essentially double dip and remove some of the ground clutter inside a room. It is just fundamentally better for a player to make a second box from the thread of a slot box instead of having the slot box in the first place.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Clear statements of problems that you have encountered.  I don't need to hear dozens of solutions.  I need to understand the problem.

People try to give you solutions instead of just pointing out our problems because we see the game from two different viewpoints. Players say "We need something done about this wheat issue!" and you respond with "I'll make baskets be made with thread!" Players instantly looked at that idea and dismissed it instantly. Why? There's no sensible player going to grow two milkweed to make a basket if the choice to make baskets is either two reed or two straw. Your thought process behind the fix was if we remove the amount of wheat being produced that will fix the problem. While a good thought, the execution was a complete and utter miss. People suggesting storage wouldn't fix our grain problem as then we'd just end up with barrels of useless wheat which just makes your time wasted, and the players still bitch about too much wheat. Why not make the compost cycle require the whole thing instead of threshing the wheat? This means you aren't producing a bunch if grain unless you want to make baskets. That would be a much more sensible conclusion to come to when using the idea of how can we reduce grain without just making a special storage container or just making it decay.

Game balance is hard Jason, I really do get that but sometimes you need to not be so extreme when it comes to stuff. While players may not know exactly how everything works under the hood we can tell you when the car is missing a wheel, or that the car is on fire after an update turned sour. It's your game at the end of the day but players want to see ohol grow and be the very best it can be. We don't want to see the game back down to 20 players playing the game or anything crazy like that.

Last edited by Tarr (2019-05-31 16:13:06)


Days peppers/onions/tomatoes left unfixed: 103

Do your part and remind Jason to fix these damn vegetables.

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#38 2019-05-31 15:50:35

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,779

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Tarr wrote:

There's no sensible player going to grow two milkweed to make a basket if the choice to make baskets is either two adobe or two straw.

This post is at the top, so letting the slight error here slide probably isn't wise.

Baskets CANNOT get made out of adobe.  They can, however, get made out of straw or tule reeds.  And I'm sure Tarr just misspoke on this having made baskets from tule reeds dozens of times in game, while adobe also gets made from tule reeds and tule stumps can get dug up for adobe.

Tarr wrote:

Why not make the compost cycle require the whole thing instead of threshing the wheat?

I find that strange to ask, because then there's the issue of how people having enough material to make bread and pies.

I don't see why wheat couldn't get put in a crock pot or a special barrel.

Some people have proposed wheat decaying also, and if it can't do that because of the engine, that sure does seem strange since dung decays.

Actually, here's another idea:

Go back to baskets decaying if made from tule reeds or adobe.  Have a new object which holds three items like a basket, or maybe four, and is portable in the same way a basket is.  This new type of 'basket' does NOT decay.  And here's the kicker: make this new "basket" so that it requires a few grain to make. 

Oh... but I'm not a game designer, I don't know the engine, and my preferences don't matter since I don't have some magic "filter" that only the OHOL game designer has.  So, if you say that I wasted my time in making that suggestion, should have never wrote it on here, and just tried to get a kickstarter to find another game designer for OHOL, and put that idea forth for the other game designer to read, well, I wouldn't be arguing with you on those points.

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#39 2019-05-31 16:12:46

Tarr
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 1,546

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Spoonwood wrote:
Tarr wrote:

There's no sensible player going to grow two milkweed to make a basket if the choice to make baskets is either two adobe or two straw.

This post is at the top, so letting the slight error here slide probably isn't wise.

Baskets CANNOT get made out of adobe.  They can, however, get made out of straw or tule reeds.  And I'm sure Tarr just misspoke on this having made baskets from tule reeds dozens of times in game, while adobe also gets made from tule reeds and tule stumps can get dug up for adobe.

I'm sure everyone knows what I meant, I didn't even realize I put adobe instead of reeds until that was pointed out.

Tarr wrote:

Why not make the compost cycle require the whole thing instead of threshing the wheat?

I find that strange to ask, because then there's the issue of how people having enough material to make bread and pies.

I don't see why wheat couldn't get put in a crock pot or a special barrel.

Some people have proposed wheat decaying also, and if it can't do that because of the engine, that sure does seem strange since dung decays.

Actually, here's another idea:

Go back to baskets decaying if made from tule reeds or adobe.  Have a new object which holds three items like a basket, or maybe four, and is portable in the same way a basket is.  This new type of 'basket' does NOT decay.  And here's the kicker: make this new "basket" so that it requires a few grain to make. 

Oh... but I'm not a game designer, I don't know the engine, and my preferences don't matter since I don't have some magic "filter" that only the OHOL game designer has.  So, if you say that I wasted my time in making that suggestion, should have never wrote it on here, and just tried to get a kickstarter to find another game designer for OHOL, and put that idea forth for the other game designer to read, well, I wouldn't be arguing with you on those points.

The issue people have is from producing too much grain and Jason's line of thinking for fixing the problem was to reduce the amount of threshed wheat produced. Following his line of thinking it would be better to have the option to thresh the wheat for baskets + grain or just dump the whole thing in the compost pile and not produce any excess grain. Threshed wheat can decay he just hasn't decided to go that route and personally barrels or stacking wheat doesn't solve the root of the problem. If Jason just gave us stacks or barrels we would still be producing way too much wheat. His thinking when it came to the weird basket making was him trying to fix the root of the problem (players make too much threshed wheat piles).

I'm not sure how I feel about baskets lasting forever now but I've only played one life since the patch and I was just cleaning up a town. Either way, I think the stuff that actually needs fixed RIGHT NOW is being able to clear out bowls filled with garbage items, a legit fix to clutter like making tomatoes/peppers/onions despawn or just be edible, and I'd like to see slot boxes be an upgrade instead of a downgrade.


Days peppers/onions/tomatoes left unfixed: 103

Do your part and remind Jason to fix these damn vegetables.

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#40 2019-05-31 18:20:31

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,287

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

it's not actually too much grain, dunno  i never had issue with clearing up dung and getting rid of wheat when i make it from the start


the issue is that the excess soil should be used on milkweed and saplings, trees
people don't do it cause it isn't too interesting

but why would people make bread if pies are much much better? still needs water and that's an issue for pies then it's an issue for bread
so maybe the grain need to be used in different ways
the only benefit is that uses less plates than pies
maybe buff the bread so it's something you want to do every time
but even grain decay is decent, feed grain to the pigs and make pig meat edible by cooking in oven
maybe horse breeding? it's quite hard to move all wild horses home
maybe feed grain so they produce offsprings and we could get more horses
sure can be harder than this, like 4 grain, 10 water maybe but we could use up extra grains fast if that's the case
maybe flour plus eggs could make pancakes, then it would be a fun way of getting rid of grain and maybe we would even feed goose some corn

reduce tree growth to 15 min then 15 again instead of 30 and 30 and 30 so you might be able to see the tree you planted as a kid
maybe just for some trees like pine or bamboo
they plant pine because it grows faster than other trees irl
so the wood industry can use them up

maybe allow us to build some plank walls, it might decay and needs fix but at least would be cheap
more focus on work less on gathering

so far people like the things that require work, like stew or plank making, but don't like going out to get adobe


https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7986 livestock pens 4.0
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4411 maxi guide

Playing OHOL optimally is like cosplaying a cactus: stand still and don't waste the water.

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#41 2019-05-31 18:23:17

Kamor
Member
Registered: 2019-05-14
Posts: 24

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

You want problems?

1. Game is no fun.
Midgame and Lategame sucks. Only early game is fun. No one kills you there. There are resources around. There is no chaos around.

2. This is your game. But i paid for it. You sold me a view, witch is currently not right. Perhaps 1 from 10 games come a little closer to this view. 9 from 10 games is watching griefing, insulting, killing shit or running around in mid and lategame without resources, mostly making some food and eating. I think i have the right to say, i feel a little cheated.

3. Your balancing is bad. But it´s your view here. So it´s right. If you like it, there is no need that players like it too or the majority of players. Each player can balance, you don't need to be a coder to be a good balancer. We all know 4 milkweed for a rope is crazy.

4. I can code. I know it´s four lines to make it non-pvp. One bool and 3 comparison on dagger, bow and sword. So from this view i can also say why not make a pvp and a non-pvp server. I know, that there is a little more work to run different server configuration, one with pvp=true other with pvp=false, but you strictly don't want this, because it's not your view.

5. Yeah you are right. The warsword is not the problem. The problem is one player kills other player and 9 from 10 players don`t like that. They want a peacefully game, build up stuff and this things like you describe on your home page. I don't want to be killed or read my childs are killed by other player again and again. I said it on other place here, your pvp sucks. You can make a cooldown on sword or try other things, but all you do, say the same answer. There are a lot of players don't like to be killed "unfair"! This is my first game, i have seen, where one player has a weapon and the other not. I have seen lots of game, where one player is op and other player has no chance, but this is the maximum of inbalance on pvp i have ever seen.

6. Finaly i have this feeling that you spend more time to make the minority happy instead of building stuff for the majority. I mean the majority, which never look in this forum, the majority which leaves you game without any commentary and go for another game, because your game was disapointing. If you want more active players, you better hear for the non speaking majority. You can find mirrors of the majority here in forum. If you want only players to buy your game and then make them leave continue your view. It works good that way.

And don´t think this is respectless here. I know you are skilled in coding, developing, server/client shit, game designing, organisation, ... But you are not a god. You are human. You make errors. And you have also this ego problem like every biologic living form on earth has. Perhaps my view can help to review you view. Ah that sentence is so viewable. And sorry my english is school english, it`s not my mother language.

This is my view.

Last edited by Kamor (2019-05-31 18:41:05)

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#42 2019-05-31 20:01:28

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,779

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

pein wrote:

they plant pine because it grows faster than other trees irl
so the wood industry can use them up

Rubber and palm trees don't regrow.  That's not exactly good.

Tarry spots are rare and immovable objects exist in the game.  That's not exactly good either.  But, that has really only mattered since the pump overhaul.

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#43 2019-05-31 20:45:44

pein
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 4,287

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

yrsh it's rare to find a spot with like 6 rubber trees aligned, plenty of palm and like 4-6 hot springs so rubebr makign would be viable activity in a predifined spot

we got a grid where the abd biomes are worse not havign water
desert and ice could have tarry spots in place of sprigns then at least they would be good having nearby rather than having none or too many tarry spots


https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7986 livestock pens 4.0
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4411 maxi guide

Playing OHOL optimally is like cosplaying a cactus: stand still and don't waste the water.

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#44 2019-05-31 20:56:14

MrChuckleteeth
Member
Registered: 2019-05-30
Posts: 5

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Spoonwood wrote:
Dodge wrote:

@Spoonwood Do you think you're better at designing games than Jason?

Is my answer relevant to whether Jason listens to people and takes their feedback duly into account?  Is it relevant to people expressing concerns about the game?

In both cases the answer is no.  So, it doesn't really matter what I think with respect to that, because it's simply not relevant.

The customer is always right, and Jason doesn't seem to understand that.

The customer isn't always right, if you believe this philosophy you're delusional and have 0 understanding of marketing, business, and let alone game design.

Just stop.

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#45 2019-05-31 22:28:22

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,779

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

MrChuckleteeth wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
Dodge wrote:

@Spoonwood Do you think you're better at designing games than Jason?

Is my answer relevant to whether Jason listens to people and takes their feedback duly into account?  Is it relevant to people expressing concerns about the game?

In both cases the answer is no.  So, it doesn't really matter what I think with respect to that, because it's simply not relevant.

The customer is always right, and Jason doesn't seem to understand that.

The customer isn't always right, if you believe this philosophy you're delusional and have 0 understanding of marketing, business, and let alone game design.

Just stop.

You're completely wrong.  The customer cannot be wrong about their preferences so long as that person knows their own self and is honest.  Customer service is paramount, and that includes respecting their preferences and desires beyond what Jason has conveyed with how to he respects other people's preferences.  I'll refer you to him talking about his 'vision'.  He's not the person buying the product, nor the person using the art in the end, so his preference just doesn't matter over others.  And really more strongly, his 'vision' does NOT matter more than the much larger number of people who play the game or could at some point in the future. 

Nonetheless, even throwing the phrase 'the customer is always right' my comments could still get supported by the phrase: "The Customer is not a moron.  She's your wife."  The above post shows an elitist attitude and implies customers/consumers of art and their opinions as not worth considering in multiple places.  There is no one person who has some magic filter as to how art should be.  There is no magic filter as to what makes something beautiful that anyone possesses.  Saying that one knows what good art is a priori over a bunch of other people is just arrogance, since what is and what is not art ends up subjective in the end.

And your begging me to stop just indicates that you haven't gotten a leg to stand on in terms of a serious opposing position... not with respect to this post at least.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-31 22:29:08)

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#46 2019-06-01 02:31:42

RedComb
Member
Registered: 2019-05-11
Posts: 57

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Good to know the time and effort I put into giving my genuine feedback was wasted because it didn't conform to some preconceived notion about what is useful and what isn't. And here I thought just giving my honest, heartfelt opinion would be worth something, but now I find out all you care about is what fits your narrow view about what is helpful.

Haven't played your game in weeks and still won't. My negative review on Steam, with 52 helpful votes, lays out what I think the problem is: a game that cynically exploits the worst aspects of human behavior is not fun and, in fact, is depressing to play.

The cooperative and nurturing side of the game is were the magic is, not war and xenophobic conflict, but since I'm just some lowly player and not some high and mighty Dev, wtf do I know and why even bother?

My feedback isn't valued and my brief participation in the community was meaningless. Thanks so much for hammering home just what a fool I was for taking the time to share my thoughts.

I realize a lot of people dislike spoonwood, but thanks for putting that Raph Koster quote, because I instantly thought of it when I read Jason's OP. I still believe it is correct, but obviously Jason doesn't, so there's no need to keep hoping just one of the things I've shared might be a pearl.

Last edited by RedComb (2019-06-01 02:33:59)

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#47 2019-06-01 05:00:02

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,779

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Thanks RedComb.  Someone else posted Ralph Koster's On Criticism in some other thread.  It sounds a bit strange at first with Koster saying that all dislike of work is correct.  But, when things boil down to matters of preference, it holds.  And you're welcome.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-06-01 05:30:49)

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#48 2019-06-01 05:40:33

Dantox
Member
Registered: 2019-04-28
Posts: 211

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

If there is a large group of players that keep shouting "THE SWORD RUINS THE GAME" or "WE NEED MORE STORAGE" and you cannot understand what the problem could be then i dont exactly get what are you expecting us to say on a playerbase level.

However it seems odd for me that you are trying to tweak every mechanic of the game to try to justify or control any new addition that you add like it was the war sword or the fences update, to this point in time it feels like the game is going to make a full circle in progress because your vision is not longer matching the one that you showed us first in the trailer which is leading just to a faction war or casual civil war.

Meanwhile i respect you as the developer of the game and probably a nice person i dont think because you are the creator of the game or have designed them for 15 years doesnt mean that all of your calls that you make for this game are the correct ones.


make bread, no war

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#49 2019-06-01 12:45:14

Erudaru
Member
Registered: 2018-03-19
Posts: 100

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Jason knows all game designers personally (at least the good ones) and they are the only ones he listens to.

I think that's the big problem, they don't give him honest critique. They probably don't want to hurt his feelings.


Eve Thunderhawk / Eve Dragon

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#50 2019-06-01 13:38:59

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,779

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

jasonrohrer wrote:

So what do I need from you, the player, mostly as feedback?

Clear statements of problems that you have encountered.  I don't need to hear dozens of solutions.  I need to understand the problem.

No, that's not a good rule for what you need Jason.

For evidence of why see here and look at your own interactions with other people when you asked for feedback:

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6301

People could NOT have given you what they had encountered as problems with such a system.  What you needed there came as a willingness to listen.  Of course, not everything proposed there would get implemented as you couldn't implement everything, and more importantly as not all ideas are equal in merit.  And no, those changes didn't result in people caring about their lineages more. 

And, NO, Tarr did not give you what was the fundamental "problem" with swords.  The 'problem', in so far as the 'problem' metaphor works and it really doesn't work out so well in the end for understanding things highly dependent on the nature of people, comes as better understood through this:

LostAlice wrote:

Now obviously the family raiders aren't as bad as eve raiders are, but it feel so common it can really ruin your enjoyment of the game it feels like there is a murder in every game for me lately and with raiders and griefrs both contributing to the murder pool *it leaves me feeling like every game is violent* [emphasis added] unless I'm lucky enough to born into an eve camp or I run away from my city to start my own camp.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 557#p62557

Having a feeling of every game being violent is not compatible with wanting to *build* civilization and roleplay parenting (I just don't acknowledge 'real play' of parenting in this game... people know the other player is not a baby... its roleplay and that's it).  People building buildings and/or making technology didn't feel like they would get stabbed or see a murder every day throughout history.  And women who choose to become mothers did NOT do so expecting to experience or see *deadly* violence every day of their lives... on the contrary, they expected to feel protected and secure.

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