I think the new map is too easy (too full of resources)

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-11 19:44:03

So... the old map placement alg had a bug in it that would essentially avoid placing any "short" object in the two tiles to the north of any other object.

This bug effectively kept the grid of small objects scattered, and never "stacked" vertically, while still allowing trees (which are tall) to form tight, nice-looking clusters.

We got used to this over the past year. The Eve game was tuned around it, etc.

Also, I think it might look better.

Here's a "slider" that you can use to compare the new to the old layout:

https://cdn.knightlab.com/libs/juxtapos … daf8f81e27

You can also study the images directly:

https://i.imgur.com/ZWt4IXb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/K5s8cda.jpg

Now, obviously, this was an accident, but the truth is that small objects don't look great when "stacked" like that anyway.

It is possible to tune the likelihood of each object, but the problem is that it's all relative. So, in "dense" areas of the map, something is going to be clustered. If the small objects are made less likely, then they will be less likely everywhere, and trees will become more likely everywhere. I.e., it will be very hard to balance the numbers to get the old "sparse" map of small objects back.

As I'm thinking about resource contention for nearby villages, the game is simply too easy right now... 12 rabbits on one screen, sheesh.

Thus, I'm going to reintroduce the bug, but make it an intentional feature this time. Short natural objects cannot be placed in the two tiles to the north of any other object, short or tall. Thus, the map will be sparse again, with no short-object vertical stacking.

InSpace · 2019-05-11 20:03:25

jasonrohrer wrote:

Thus, I'm going to reintroduce the bug, but make it an intentional feature this time.

Game developing, amiright

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-11 20:15:37

InSpace wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
Thus, I'm going to reintroduce the bug, but make it an intentional feature this time.
Game developing, amiright

LOL

+1

Last edited by FeignedSanity (2019-05-11 20:15:44)

Spoonwood · 2019-05-11 20:27:52

jasonrohrer wrote:

As I'm thinking about resource contention for nearby villages, the game is simply too easy right now... 12 rabbits on one screen, sheesh.

I don't agree. I didn't find dozens of buckets on bigserver2 this past week. Actually, I was STILL finding a bucket shortage even in towns with milkweed farms around, which suggests that there was not too much wild milkweed. I would still get into towns and usually it was like 'oh, we need more iron and rope to complete the tech'. Were you actually going out and getting resources such as rope and iron to build a diesel water pump this past week Jason when you came to this conclusion about things being too easy?

Also, no, the pond update happened simultaneously as the "short" object bug getting fixed. It made for a good combination of things happening simultaneously.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-11 20:28:12)

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-11 20:31:07

You can grow milkweed.

Iron doesn't block neighboring iron, and never did, so that hasn't changed.

What changed was semi-short objects like milkweed, berry bushes, ponds, big hard rocks, etc. They were clustering vertically when they didn't used to before. This also affected all wild foods, ruining the tight balance of the Eve game.

lychee · 2019-05-11 20:36:40

I think there will always be bucket shortages -- never enough milkweed no matter how much there is.

As for me, I'm fairly neutral about how the resources are distributed. I think the main issue right now is still water over everything else.

@Jason: Is it possible to give different resources different frequencies?

I like the current frequency of round rocks and things like that -- and I think it makes sense this way. There should be rocks everywhere.

I'm fine with other resources being more sparse, like wild food, but there should be lots of rocks XD

Last edited by lychee (2019-05-11 20:38:14)

futurebird · 2019-05-11 20:47:44

I agree since that bug was removed there are too many rabbits, and it was fun to go nuts catching them but it feels off.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-11 22:48:40

jasonrohrer wrote:

You can grow milkweed.
Iron doesn't block neighboring iron, and never did, so that hasn't changed.
What changed was semi-short objects like milkweed, berry bushes, ponds, big hard rocks, etc. They were clustering vertically when they didn't used to before. This also affected all wild foods, ruining the tight balance of the Eve game.

Milkweed requires water to grow.

Anyways though, you left out one big example which I just saw on server12. Springs won't spawn with that system in place even though they should. Saw a spring in a grassland. Walked 40 tiles to the left, using the hetuw mod I was sure I was 40 tiles away, and I see a juniper tree in a yellow biome/prairie/savannah, but there's no spring in the tile above the juniper tree. I'll try and double check.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-11 22:48:57)

Spoonwood · 2019-05-11 22:59:05

I've seen a second example now. The spring should have been one tile above a rubber tree. I was able to throw my banana right down on the tile there as there was no spring there. Unless that's intended. Should springs appear ever 40 tiles if not in arctic or desert? Or should springs appear 40 tiles away only if there's no other object below where the spring will go and there is no arctic or desert? Like, which should be the case?

Tarr · 2019-05-11 23:12:43

Wipe has seemingly put stuff in the wrong biomes again.

https://clips.twitch.tv/SmoggyBraveArtichokeKreygasm

I personally had a spring on a desert tile (probably leaked off of a badlands tile right next to the desert or had a badlands tile under the desert tile.)

Last apocalypse also had the same effect where animals got moved to wrong biome tiles.

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-05-12 02:43:17

Oh, yeah, tonight when I found a Seal in the Jungle, there wasn't any ice anywhere near it.

Psykout · 2019-05-12 03:33:49

Could we have a compromise with less permanent items like rabbits and ponds, with slight increase to expendables like burdock and milkweed?

pein · 2019-05-12 06:52:22

since the start of the game you nerfed milkweed, reed and each addition of new usage for materials nerfs the usage of previous
so flat rocks, clay and milkweed shouldn't be nerfed back

the first photo i seen is, omg all those stone was supposed to be there

this approach is taxing the winnings, you could tax the rarity, but pls don't touch the jackpots

all those resources still need to be carried back so i havent seen much of a change on cities
lately i seen some nice spawns and made a team effort to make road there and outpost
we stil ldont really have anything that worth enough to move the whole city

the fact that you can walk 25 sec to another spring wont mean that average players will do so
even on a 40 grid i rarely seen more than 3 springs connected with a road

and your iron calculation also flawed cause people need to have the whole territory walked trough and remember they walked trough it, so like strategically walking in spirals to cover a few hundred square tiles, so not A to B straight line, more like a lot of spirals and clearing out everything until they brave enough to go further

so the 5 minute walk distance is not 5 minute, probably no one ever walked that far

we are still capped by distance a lot of times, back before, like gen 30+ people wont really find resources to build more buildings and floors
and average people wont really gather

so you just nerfing for the veterans

renewable could be nerfed a bit, like bushes, cacti and rabbit, ponds
but then add more non renewable like flat rock, clay and wild food

maybe think about some way of temporary resources. for example a rain and then 10 min people can find edible mushrooms
an earthquake brings up some iron to surface but then it gets covered again in 30 min
could be fun to actually mine up a whole badland, like pickaxe tiles multiple times for more resources, and instead of linking tech to iron, add some cycle where it eats more time and work but resources are there just need to be lucky

similar how in rust you can gather stone, wood and other stuff from time to time, but having better tools reduces the time for it

gathering is every ones job, not just for veterans, it's not fun to spend a life to find and bring home iron
you should balance it around average players
finding good spots can be harder but the good spots should be great and not many average ones, if you get what i mean

eventually you need even more great spots to claim, so trade can happen
the question is what is the amount of resources i would move a city?

right now we got many great spots, we need a few great spots, many bad spots, and not many average and some good and bad

Spoonwood · 2019-05-12 07:07:15

Pein is correct about the average player not moving that far out of camp. Also, the players who gather resources such as rope or iron I would expect usually have a zoom mod and aren't using the default cloistered view.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-19 14:48:48

I think that you should go back to how things were the week before you turned the bug into a feature. I'm assuming that there don't exist major computational problems with doing that, of course. Villages are less vulnerable to griefing if they have more resources, unless there exist other concerns like clutter in general, in my opinion. That Eve game as much you like it, is fragile. It isn't hard to find people talking about how it would be easy to grief an Eve camp, and they aren't wrong. And it's no doubt even worse when there's a huge influx of new players.

I personally remember saying that the map looked more beautiful during the week when we had more resources. Less like some sort of picked over barren wasteland. It had more potential for player growth, and new players probably wouldn't overwhelm towns as much with more resources.

Rabbits also require bait now, and burdock makes for the best source of bait. Players using a bowl of berries and a carrot from a town increases water pressure, and plenty of people have said recently that water pressure makes for a serious concern... even going so far to say that towns should forget about trying to make it past the deep well stage (ugh... forget 'iphones' I guess) and migrate. Water pressure would be less than as things are currently with more ponds around.

People would still probably craft and build plenty of things with more resources out there.

DestinyCall had what I think an insightful comment about griefing here:

DestinyCall wrote:

There are a thousand ways to grief and the harder it is to survive, the easier the system becomes to sabotage. The more focused everyone is on survival, the less time we have to monitor the behavior of other players. Just like living in a very polite society provides you with a million ways to be rude, trying to survive in a game that wants you dead provides the griefer with a million ways to kill without lifting a blade.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … d=8720&p=4

Changing it so that we had the system we had that one week probably would enable people to have more time to monitor the behavior of other players.

jcwilk · 2019-12-19 16:34:29

Stop doing this

Spoonwood · 2019-12-19 16:55:52

jcwilk wrote:

Stop doing this

Start being more reflective and consider more possibilities.

ollj · 2019-12-19 17:20:06

goose conga!

Kinrany · 2019-12-19 17:49:06

Spoonwood, everyone assumes that the thread is recent. Even if we could continue the discussion, it's much better to start a new thread and quote and/or link the important parts. Otherwise people will be constantly confused by old comments that were made in a totally different context.

Toxolotl · 2019-12-19 18:09:20

I thought this thread was new and it scared me so much. Half expecting the rift to return.

Personally i think all this necro is hilarious.

You go spoonwood.

sigmen4020 · 2019-12-19 18:13:58

cordy wrote:

LOL, i thought this was a new forum thread!

Wow, phew. I thought Jason was about to implement more ressource contention than we already have.

Spoon, I don't usually have a problem with necroing, but this is getting incredibly confusing. As others have mentioned a lot of us thought this was a new thread by Jason, when it is in fact a thread from frigging may. If you wanna talk about something from old threads please do so in another/new thread, and then link to the older one and quote the important parts.

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2019-12-19 18:18:50)

Spoonwood · 2019-12-19 18:43:17

I made a thread about a month ago talking about this, but not in as much detail as I did above. See here: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8554

If I revived that thread, people would probably still think I was necromancing for its own sake or something.

Maybe it's confusing in spite of the dates existing, but some people are laughing too.

All that said, it'd be interesting if people studied the pictures and had an opinion about which would be better in the present context.

Saolin · 2019-12-19 19:17:19

Oh spoonwood, the one person who's made it his mission to gradually train everyone to check the date of the original post before reading a thread.

arkajalka · 2019-12-19 22:46:34

god damn necro threads!

DestinyCall · 2019-12-19 23:07:28

Jason from 7 months ago has a point. We don't deserve nice things. We need more scarcity. Fewer option. More invisible fences.

If the last seven months have taught me anything, it is that I have the most fun when I completely run out of valid options and have plenty of time to just sit down in the middle of a dying berry patch and really think about the meaning of life, the universe, and everything.

Why do we drill for oil? Why do we gather iron? Why do we make compost? Why do we catch sheep? Why do we feed sky babies? Why does any of this matter if nothing will remain in a few hours or a few days?

What is "realplay"? What is "real" if life itself is just a game? If real life is a game, are we the players or the ones getting played?

Deep thoughts ... deep berry-munching thoughts.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-05-11 19:44:03

I think the new map is too easy (too full of resources)

#2 2019-05-11 20:03:25

Re: I think the new map is too easy (too full of resources)

#3 2019-05-11 20:15:37

Re: I think the new map is too easy (too full of resources)

#4 2019-05-11 20:27:52

Re: I think the new map is too easy (too full of resources)

#5 2019-05-11 20:31:07

Re: I think the new map is too easy (too full of resources)

#6 2019-05-11 20:36:40

Re: I think the new map is too easy (too full of resources)

#7 2019-05-11 20:47:44

Re: I think the new map is too easy (too full of resources)

#8 2019-05-11 22:48:40

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#9 2019-05-11 22:59:05

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#10 2019-05-11 23:12:43

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#11 2019-05-12 02:43:17

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#12 2019-05-12 03:33:49

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#13 2019-05-12 06:52:22

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#14 2019-05-12 07:07:15

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#15 2019-12-19 14:48:48

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#16 2019-12-19 16:34:29

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#17 2019-12-19 16:55:52

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#18 2019-12-19 17:20:06

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#19 2019-12-19 17:49:06

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#20 2019-12-19 18:09:20

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#21 2019-12-19 18:13:58

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#22 2019-12-19 18:43:17

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#23 2019-12-19 19:17:19

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#24 2019-12-19 22:46:34

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#25 2019-12-19 23:07:28

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