OHOL as a model of human society

BerrypickerAF · 2019-05-07 21:06:10

I've been wanting to write something along these lines for a while now, but I have a hard time putting my thoughts into words. I'll give it a try though. There's nothing in particular I'm hoping to accomplish here, but feel free to chime in with your own theories.

After playing OHOL for a while I found myself looking at the game and the 'societies' it creates through a philosophical lens. It is utterly fascinating to me how the game allows human morality and mentality to show itself in it's rawest form. I applaud Jason for having created such a platform, allowing us to interact with such anonymity to let the true human spirit show.

I started to pay more and more attention to the 'unspoken rules' that tend to emerge when camps hit a certain level of population. There are some things that people just tend to do out of personal morality, for example not murdering someone who hasn't done any wrong (I'll get to griefers later). How curious is it though, that as soon as someone goes against this unspoken moral, the victim of a unjust murder will have droves of villagers come to their aide, regardless of relation to the victim.
Now you might think to yourself 'duh of course' - but think again, nobody told you that's what you had to do. Nobody told you it was wrong to kill someone without reason.
It's a game after all, there are no real consequences. This is how griefers play, and it is just as valid as the game's code allows for it, but somehow we still perceive it as wrong and that such an action is worthy of punishment.
Okay so got it, killing is morally wrong, even in a simulated society. Pretty basic stuff.

Delving deeper I focused more on the traditions that seem to contradict IRL morals in some ways. It becomes apparent very quickly that females tend to run the show, girls are the most valuable resource and if there are none left the town is doomed. Occasionally you might even come across 'amazon' camps where males are exiled or executed.
Makes sense in the game, girls die - town dies. But isn't it the same with humankind as well?
So why does OHOL mainly produce matriarchal societies, whereas humanity skewed heavily towards patriarchy? I am sure it's mostly just due to numbers and lack of physical differences between genders (no pregnancy/related complications), but it makes me wonder if early human tribes actually were ruled by women, as the death of all females would lead to the death of the tribe.

Another thing I pondered about was why people are more likely to grief in larger towns and how boredom and lack of purpose leads people to 'immoral' decisions.
Your only goal is survival, but you only have one life. If you are born into a small village your purpose is usually clear, as it's easy to find something to do that helps secure the survival of yourself and your tribe. These lives usually tend to be 'fun', as you always feel that you contribute and it hardly gets boring.
But be born into a large town that is superfluous with food and littered with half-finished projects, you usually find yourself wandering about looking for stuff to do. Survival isn't important anymore, you get bored and don't have much motivation to finish other people's work or start a long-term building project yourself. Some might just busy themselves doing odd things here and there, some just talk shit by the berries for an hour, some kill themselves, and some start taking out their boredom on others and become destructive. But none of it ever feels like it has any meaning or makes any difference.

It's almost eerie how this game acts as a small-scale exhibition of the human mind, as we're seeing this happen in our world right now with increases in depression, anxiety and suicide due to people lacking any purpose in life and not having any feeling of worth or contribution. The only true 'reason' we are born for is survival, evolution hasn't caught up in our monkey brains yet, so having this problem 'solved' from the start by being born into the first world creates all kinds of new problems as our primitive brains grasp for any sense of reason or meaning.
I seriously think this game should be pitched to various universities as a method of studying the human mind and how our environment affects our decisions and mental health. I'm just some nerd with too much time to think about stuff and can't do anything with all this information, but this could be a valuable tool in the hands of the right minds.

All grievances over fences, balancing, temperature, etc aside, this is still by far the most interesting game I ever had the pleasure to play. No other video game has sparked such deep interest in anthropology in me, and I doubt anything will ever come close to it.

Last edited by BerrypickerAF (2019-05-07 22:09:29)

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-07 21:55:12

Thank you.

futurebird · 2019-05-07 22:30:47

I agree it's a super interesting game and it's why I get so loud about "change this! make that!" Worry, Jason if the suggestions ever dry up. People don't think about ways to improve something that boring.

wio · 2019-05-07 22:56:04

BerrypickerAF wrote:

Nobody told you it was wrong to kill someone without reason.

Everyone plays OHOL bringing their understanding of morality into the game, so I have to disagree on this point. Also the game also imposes penalties to killing, since player loses interaction capabilities temporarily. There is also far less incentive to kill in OHOL.

BerrypickerAF wrote:

Delving deeper I focused more on the traditions that seem to contradict IRL morals in some ways. It becomes apparent very quickly that females tend to run the show, girls are the most valuable resource and if there are none left the town is doomed. Occasionally you might even come across 'amazon' camps where males are exiled or executed.
Makes sense in the game, girls die - town dies. But isn't it the same with humankind as well?
So why does OHOL mainly produce matriarchal societies, whereas humanity skewed heavily towards patriarchy? I am sure it's mostly just due to numbers and lack of physical differences between genders (no pregnancy/related complications), but it makes me wonder if early human tribes actually were ruled by women, as the death of all females would lead to the death of the tribe.

Matriarchy does not encourage women to have children or to take better care of their children. The opposite is true. When women get power, they are more likely to see their children as a burden. This is because their matriarchal responsibilities are at odds with their parental responsibilities rather than being complementary. Countries with higher birth rates tend to be more patriarchal.

The mechanics of sex in OHOL make it unwise to compare its sexual phenomena to that of humans. Men are effectively barren women, and there is no sexual dimorphism beyond that. OHOL is closer to a polygynous ants than it is to humans regarding sexual mechanics.

BerrypickerAF wrote:

Another thing I pondered about was why people are more likely to grief in larger towns and how boredom and lack of purpose leads people to 'immoral' decisions.
Your only goal is survival, but you only have one life. If you are born into a small village your purpose is usually clear, as it's easy to find something to do that helps secure the survival of yourself and your tribe. These lives usually tend to be 'fun', as you always feel that you contribute and it hardly gets boring.
But be born into a large town that is superfluous with food and littered with half-finished projects, you usually find yourself wandering about looking for stuff to do. Survival isn't important anymore, you get bored and don't have much motivation to finish other people's work or start a long-term building project yourself. Some might just busy themselves doing odd things here and there, some just talk shit by the berries, some kill themselves, and others start taking out their boredom on others and become destructive. But none of it ever feels like it has any meaning or makes any difference.

I think there is truth in this observation, but it is mixing up separate things. Rates of crime and rates of suicide/depression are separate. Crime is going down while suicide is going up. I think abundance plays a role in some of the dysfunction, but I think ideology plays a bigger role. I don't think ideology plays a significant role in OHOL, though. That is to say, you don't have OHOL religions that give people a sense of community or lead to more generosity among the tribe.

BerrypickerAF · 2019-05-08 00:12:14

wio wrote:

BerrypickerAF wrote:
Another thing I pondered about was why people are more likely to grief in larger towns and how boredom and lack of purpose leads people to 'immoral' decisions.
Your only goal is survival, but you only have one life. If you are born into a small village your purpose is usually clear, as it's easy to find something to do that helps secure the survival of yourself and your tribe. These lives usually tend to be 'fun', as you always feel that you contribute and it hardly gets boring.
But be born into a large town that is superfluous with food and littered with half-finished projects, you usually find yourself wandering about looking for stuff to do. Survival isn't important anymore, you get bored and don't have much motivation to finish other people's work or start a long-term building project yourself. Some might just busy themselves doing odd things here and there, some just talk shit by the berries, some kill themselves, and others start taking out their boredom on others and become destructive. But none of it ever feels like it has any meaning or makes any difference.
I think there is truth in this observation, but it is mixing up separate things. Rates of crime and rates of suicide/depression are separate. Crime is going down while suicide is going up. I think abundance plays a role in some of the dysfunction, but I think ideology plays a bigger role. I don't think ideology plays a significant role in OHOL, though. That is to say, you don't have OHOL religions that give people a sense of community or lead to more generosity among the tribe.

Admittedly I mixed a few things up here, I didn't mention violence in the IRL part because I wasn't sure how/if it related to my statement. I want to address the lack of ideology/religion a bit, as it kind of sparked my post today but I didn't touch on it.
It's hard to talk about morality without bringing up religion as it has brought a lot of unity to the world, for better or worse. I think the closest OHOL can be compared to in these abundant late-stage cities though is existentialism. I argue that players are robbed of the original 'purpose' of the life in their game (survival), therefor have to create their own meaning.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but something the human mind seems to have a difficult time coping with in lack of guidance. Religion could arguably serve as this guiding purpose, as many people IRL chose to do. But currently in the game there doesn't seem to be much incentive to move away from this existential view (I exist to make my own purpose) and adopt ideologies instead (I exist for a pre-determined purpose).
I can't conceive of a way to entice people to do so either in the game's current state, as there doesn't seem to be anything that is out of the player's control aside of other players. Crops always grow, there are no droughts nor floods, no natural disasters, no plagues - the world is boringly safe and there is no need for faith to plead for prosperity and health. Even the only thing that could be considered a catastrophe (Apocalypse) is entirely controlled by the players.

Perhaps adding a little bit of RNG based chaos/disasters might spark some religion. Who knows, maybe that one tribe that prays to a warding sky god (or Twisted, IDK) by placing a pie on an altar just happens to never have been hit with floods. The rituals didn't actually do anything, it's RNG, not a craft recipe. Or maybe it DID work and the sky god is real? I sure as hell won't anger the village and tempt fate by taking that pie from the altar.

Last edited by BerrypickerAF (2019-05-08 00:44:34)

Potjeh · 2019-05-08 01:08:38

BerrypickerAF wrote:

but it makes me wonder if early human tribes actually were ruled by women, as the death of all females would lead to the death of the tribe.

I don't think so, bride kidnapping seems to be common in many tribal cultures. Heck, even in Roman mythology the rape of Sabine women is a very prominent myth (the word rape being used in an archaic meaning of abduction rather than sexual assault).

futurebird · 2019-05-08 01:14:08

Being a woman in a post industrial society is much much better than pre for the most part with some exceptions that are overrated IMO.

Technology generally is where you want to be regardless who you are. Most of all ya'll's ancestors were vassals, wards and slaves. Human history is ugly AF.

Potjeh · 2019-05-08 01:19:34

Modern world ain't all that great either. There's no metal shackles on us, but most people are shackled by debt at levels unprecedented in known history.

BerrypickerAF · 2019-05-08 01:59:58

Aight so I didn't mean for this to go that political, my mistake. I did not intend to romanticize the past and merely made some speculations born from a layman's mind.
Please don't make this a 'the world always sucked' or a feminist issue, I see now I provided a lot of fuel for such discussions, though my intentions were purely philosophical pondering of how OHOL is a fascinating, albeit not accurate, glance into human society.

futurebird · 2019-05-08 02:06:09

All philosophy is political. Don't worry about it.

BladeWoods · 2019-05-08 02:46:20

This has to be the most interesting game I've ever played, and I do enjoy it on a deeper level than other games. I feel like its given me perspective on my life irl.

Most societies present and historical do put the value of women at a higher level than men. In deadly scenarios the women and children are prioritized.
But the game is super one-sided towards females, if you wanted to maximize a villages chance of survival, then you should always slash die as a boy and ask any boys you have to slash die. There is only disadvantage to boys in the game. I wish males got some kind of benefit.

pein · 2019-05-08 08:11:37

it's not unspoken it's just long ago

most veterans know each other
i recognize the players who were old timer before steam update

we watch the city, we don't consider kills bad
we have our arguments but if someone is reasonable we let them live
no chain kills, no drama after, we might keep an eye and next time no mercy

2 vets will run a city without arguments and will stab anyone who messing around
i was playing with pharoh and 2 games in a row worked together and only the end of the life told our names
i was revenged by someone who knew im a good player, and my sisters defending the griefer for roleplay reasons (was their daughter)

it's also a rule that people make huge berry farms, it wont make it a good rule

breezeknight · 2019-05-08 08:15:10

the gameplay is skewed,
the players base is sieved through updates, players retention is low, only a narrowly selected group finds something positive to play it, so how has that a chance to form any RL resemblance ?

- - -

Astelon · 2019-05-08 11:53:16

There were very few societies in real life ruled by women in the past, the ones I heard about are in archipelagos in the Pacific. The reason why men were pretty much always "in power" is because they have the power. They are the ones who defend the settlement and who conquer lands. They are the ones with physical prowess. That's how we evolved as a species, the men go out hunting, the women tend for the home and children.

voy178 · 2019-05-08 12:14:08

Potjeh wrote:

BerrypickerAF wrote:
but it makes me wonder if early human tribes actually were ruled by women, as the death of all females would lead to the death of the tribe.
I don't think so, bride kidnapping seems to be common in many tribal cultures. Heck, even in Roman mythology the rape of Sabine women is a very prominent myth (the word rape being used in an archaic meaning of abduction rather than sexual assault).

What do you think happened with the women after they were abducted? Do you think consent was an option or a concern?

Answer: RAPE

Potjeh · 2019-05-08 12:17:21

Actually in the myth the women were persuaded to marry Romans by all sorts of promises. It was still abduction because their fathers were adamant against letting their daughters marry Romans. There certainly was actual rape in real historical bride kidnappings, but a lot of the time it was what we would today call eloping.

Last edited by Potjeh (2019-05-08 12:19:18)

MultiLife · 2019-05-13 06:23:16

wio wrote:

BerrypickerAF wrote:
Nobody told you it was wrong to kill someone without reason.
Everyone plays OHOL bringing their understanding of morality into the game, so I have to disagree on this point. Also the game also imposes penalties to killing, since player loses interaction capabilities temporarily. There is also far less incentive to kill in OHOL.

My view on this is that a kill is forcing someone's gaming session to an end without their consent. That's what grinds my gears. An innocent player who had no bad intentions does not deserve to be removed from their gaming session by some random drama and attention-thirsty unemphatetic >insert a word here<.

wio wrote:

BerrypickerAF wrote:
Delving deeper I focused more on the traditions that seem to contradict IRL morals in some ways. It becomes apparent very quickly that females tend to run the show, girls are the most valuable resource and if there are none left the town is doomed. Occasionally you might even come across 'amazon' camps where males are exiled or executed.
Makes sense in the game, girls die - town dies. But isn't it the same with humankind as well?
So why does OHOL mainly produce matriarchal societies, whereas humanity skewed heavily towards patriarchy? I am sure it's mostly just due to numbers and lack of physical differences between genders (no pregnancy/related complications), but it makes me wonder if early human tribes actually were ruled by women, as the death of all females would lead to the death of the tribe.
Matriarchy does not encourage women to have children or to take better care of their children. The opposite is true. When women get power, they are more likely to see their children as a burden. This is because their matriarchal responsibilities are at odds with their parental responsibilities rather than being complementary. Countries with higher birth rates tend to be more patriarchal.
The mechanics of sex in OHOL make it unwise to compare its sexual phenomena to that of humans. Men are effectively barren women, and there is no sexual dimorphism beyond that. OHOL is closer to a polygynous ants than it is to humans regarding sexual mechanics.

Yep. Ants. Ants whose kids are born with the mentality of an adult.

MultiLife · 2019-05-13 06:28:20

That said, imo the best OHOL has done is shown that people are ready to share and support each other when fighting for a common cause and become closer because of it. We will stick together ultimately. First as people, then as neighbors, then as families. That may cause prioritizing and even exclusion (males in some cases in OHOL) but still, usually for the common good.

OHOL also shows how things would work with rebirth and costly talking (sharing information via speech costs a lot time and food-wise). A member of a small society takes actions very independently as they are taught by being reborn enough of times how to work in the most beneficial way in the situation they are born to.

It's also interesting to see mayfly humans, living briefly and what they choose to invest their short time upon.

I appreciate the peaceful and heart-warming things OHOL has with its players, not the goddamn PvP drama. I will quit if this becomes a playground of sexists, racists, griefers and trolls. Oh goodie, what fun drama that brings and all that...

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-05-13 14:47:50)

Vexenie · 2019-05-13 12:50:04

BerrypickerAF wrote:

I seriously think this game should be pitched to various universities as a method of studying the human mind and how our environment affects our decisions and mental health.

A separate, specifically made for universities server, where all students, who play it at the moment, play in the same server, so there are different tribes of groups of students, who work together or destroy each other, depending what they want and have to explain why and how it resembles the real world.

Danquebec · 2019-05-13 18:04:10

BerrypickerAF wrote:

but it makes me wonder if early human tribes actually were ruled by women, as the death of all females would lead to the death of the tribe.

I always found it strange how people always assume hunter-gatherers don’t exist anymore, or haven’t been studied extensively in the recent past.

They still exist, there’s the !Kung bushmen, the Sentinelese… Several Australian aborigines bands have been studied, as were the Inuits, etc… If I’m not mistaken, it appears that the general conclusion is that the genders are somewhat egalitarian in these societies. They have quite clearly determined roles though. Comparatively, one in a modern developed country is more free to do what they want independently of their gender.

MultiLife wrote:

OHOL also shows how things would work with rebirth and costly talking (sharing information via speech costs a lot time and food-wise). A member of a small society takes actions very independently as they are taught by being reborn enough of times how to work in the most beneficial way in the situation they are born to.

Yea, I’ve always found this game somewhat simulated an ant colony.

I’ve found your observations on abundant societies and existentialism really interesting, BerrypickerAF.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-05-07 21:06:10

OHOL as a model of human society

#2 2019-05-07 21:55:12

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#3 2019-05-07 22:30:47

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#4 2019-05-07 22:56:04

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#5 2019-05-08 00:12:14

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#6 2019-05-08 01:08:38

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#7 2019-05-08 01:14:08

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#8 2019-05-08 01:19:34

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#9 2019-05-08 01:59:58

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#10 2019-05-08 02:06:09

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#11 2019-05-08 02:46:20

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#12 2019-05-08 08:11:37

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#13 2019-05-08 08:15:10

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#14 2019-05-08 11:53:16

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#15 2019-05-08 12:14:08

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#16 2019-05-08 12:17:21

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#17 2019-05-13 06:23:16

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#18 2019-05-13 06:28:20

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#19 2019-05-13 12:50:04

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

#20 2019-05-13 18:04:10

Re: OHOL as a model of human society

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