Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

futurebird · 2019-05-06 01:14:03

Have you ever been Eve or one of her daughters and the /die babies almost killed you? You have a kid, pick it up, stop gathering food, loose a few pips, it dies, you put the bone down outside of camp, (more time lost) go for the food-- but have another kid, you pick it up, hunger drains more, the bonging noise starts you run with the kid for a berry bush or onion (can't hold a stone limited food options) make it, eat, THAT baby dies too.

Now you can't even remember what you were doing before being interrupted by two people who were just looking around at your camp and went "nope not for me"

Really the frequency with which babies use /die, is so high that it's a drain on your food bar just to pick them up and name them. The bone spam can get wild. I once had triplets who died, then two more kids. Five sets of bones all over the camp.

It has an impact on how people act as parents. Ever get a mother who seems ... distant and grouchy? She probably just had a sting of /die babies.

I know infant mortality was high, but this is absurd. It's bad enough that young kids die so often when they are TRYING to live. But that at least you can try to change by taking better care of them.

There are changes that could make this issue better, maybe none of them are practical. Maybe some are, the one I promote most often is this one:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OneLifeSuggest … die_issue/

But I'm curious if there are others?
Or maybe I should just not pick up kids if I don't want one for a bit? But that seems dubious, I'm worried I'll miss the good player who wants to stay.

Bob 101 · 2019-05-06 02:11:46

Sometimes I feel it is better not to stop for babies, Least not until they run towards you. I too get sick of scrambling to feed newborns only for them to be /die kids.

Just save for the moment you find out that your baby wants to stay.

Last edited by Bob 101 (2019-05-06 02:22:14)

pein · 2019-05-06 02:23:22

sometimes i get tired of them and just dump them to the nursery

there is always that naked old woman who kidnaps your kid and feeds them berry acting so nice, giving scavenged clothes and feeding her pie
and the newbees fall for it, pseudo griefers who just cannot accept that they are old and they should work so they start shittalking and swaying people against you

Dodge · 2019-05-06 06:00:01

What if using /die didnt kill the baby but only it's soul? Which then would be available for another soul.

You has the player that did /die could get reborn in another town but the other baby would be available for another player to spawn.

If nobody spawns in then the baby stays in a coma/afk and eventually dies.

There could be a limit of age where you cant spawn so you dont spawn as an adult or old person.

Sukallinen · 2019-05-06 06:30:05

pein wrote:

sometimes i get tired of them and just dump them to the nursery
there is always that naked old woman who kidnaps your kid and feeds them berry acting so nice, giving scavenged clothes and feeding her pie
and the newbees fall for it, pseudo griefers who just cannot accept that they are old and they should work so they start shittalking and swaying people against you

Well, keeping an hour of janitorial duties gives elderly some privileges in my mind. I don't mind sitting there with my irl fingers hurting already after an hour (yea I know, my good kb broke), feeding berries to kids and providing high value service by telling where everything is.

This doesn't include few areas, I always go 1-3 adventures so I know where prairie or something a kid is interested in IS.

I know you have some different values, I've never built a completed car, just newcomen, sewed wounds, done something that makes your ambitious projects to be able to complete. Well, not specifially yours but someone's.

That's why old ppl have low food pips, so they'd sit at fire and tell babies stories about where stuff are OR teach basics. I think it is one of the best working mechanics in OHOL.

Sukallinen · 2019-05-06 06:35:02

Dodge wrote:

What if using /die didnt kill the baby but only it's soul? Which then would be available for another soul.
You has the player that did /die could get reborn in another town but the other baby would be available for another player to spawn.
If nobody spawns in then the baby stays in a coma/afk and eventually dies.
There could be a limit of age where you cant spawn so you dont spawn as an adult or old person.

No, I've been in several towns where we fed our afk-only-fertile and thus saved town. This would probably be great waste of food in town. I kind of feel its good town doesn't die so I'd feed the fertile young kids too, though with berrybowl/berry to get chain going.

ps. Love your idealistic long-term txt, Jason should read it and make another good day for him:
http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewto … 020#p57020

Dodge · 2019-05-06 06:45:02

Sukallinen wrote:

Dodge wrote:
What if using /die didnt kill the baby but only it's soul? Which then would be available for another soul.
You has the player that did /die could get reborn in another town but the other baby would be available for another player to spawn.
If nobody spawns in then the baby stays in a coma/afk and eventually dies.
There could be a limit of age where you cant spawn so you dont spawn as an adult or old person.
No, I've been in several towns where we fed our afk-only-fertile and thus saved town. This would probably be great waste of food in town. I kind of feel its good town doesn't die so I'd feed the fertile young kids too, though with berrybowl/berry to get chain going.
ps. Love your idealistic long-term txt, Jason should read it and make another good day for him:
http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewto … 020#p57020

Is having afk people really a problem?

Plus most of the time they get stabbed at one point when someone continuously feed them.

Also if a baby has no player spawn until 3 years old it could die of SID.

So not really an issue

Sukallinen · 2019-05-06 06:57:16

Dodge wrote:

Is having afk people really a problem?
Plus most of the time they get stabbed at one point when someone continuously feed them.
Also if a baby has no player spawn until 3 years old it could die of SID.
So not really an issue

I'd still feel obliged to feed'em from berrybowl, wasting my time. I've never seen a afk kid stabbed if someone is nearby with berrybowl-might be they don't want to tackle me b/c by that time I usually have knife or few. They'd know what happens to them very quickly (I've modified from total pacifist to this already, now imagine five babies to feed in town for three years-yuch).

JonySky · 2019-05-06 06:59:42

futurebird wrote:

Have you ever been Eve or one of her daughters and the /die babies almost killed you? You have a kid, pick it up, stop gathering food, loose a few pips, it dies, you put the bone down outside of camp, (more time lost) go for the food-- but have another kid, you pick it up, hunger drains more, the bonging noise starts you run with the kid for a berry bush or onion (can't hold a stone limited food options) make it, eat, THAT baby dies too.
Now you can't even remember what you were doing before being interrupted by two people who were just looking around at your camp and went "nope not for me"
Really the frequency with which babies use /die, is so high that it's a drain on your food bar just to pick them up and name them. The bone spam can get wild. I once had triplets who died, then two more kids. Five sets of bones all over the camp.

It has an impact on how people act as parents. Ever get a mother who seems ... distant and grouchy? She probably just had a sting of /die babies.
I know infant mortality was high, but this is absurd. It's bad enough that young kids die so often when they are TRYING to live. But that at least you can try to change by taking better care of them.
There are changes that could make this issue better, maybe none of them are practical. Maybe some are, the one I promote most often is this one:
https://www.reddit.com/r/OneLifeSuggest … die_issue/
But I'm curious if there are others?
Or maybe I should just not pick up kids if I don't want one for a bit? But that seems dubious, I'm worried I'll miss the good player who wants to stay.

I do not want to be annoying, but I've spent time explaining this myself!
Apparently many people in this forum defend this / die practice
but it has become a method to travel to other cities and the way I see this practice is killing the game

Sukallinen · 2019-05-06 07:09:37

JonySky wrote:

I do not want to be annoying, but I've spent time explaining this myself!
Apparently many people in this forum defend this / die practice
but it has become a method to travel to other cities and the way I see this practice is killing the game

w/o /die they'd starve themselves to travel. And that's the way they like to play the game, so be it. But there should be solution (like family line one or something with burying people properly) - not sure what kind of solution will be found best.

Right now about 2 out of 9-11 babies of mine die, so I try not to pick'em up before they say/move/emote. Still often when I show them town then they /die, so I should drop'em first to local nursery fire for three minutes (looking like total newbie, wherein I'm just newbie lol) and stick around a bit.

Dodge · 2019-05-06 07:10:14

Sukallinen wrote:

Dodge wrote:
Is having afk people really a problem?
Plus most of the time they get stabbed at one point when someone continuously feed them.
Also if a baby has no player spawn until 3 years old it could die of SID.
So not really an issue
I'd still feel obliged to feed'em from berrybowl, wasting my time. I've never seen a afk kid stabbed if someone is nearby with berrybowl-might be they don't want to tackle me b/c by that time I usually have knife or few. They'd know what happens to them very quickly (I've modified from total pacifist to this already, now imagine five babies to feed in town for three years-yuch).

If they only live to three then it's not an issue, plus why feed with berry bowl when you can breastfeed?

Also since they would still be available for someone to spawn in they could be potentially not be afk anymore, and if they die at 3 then they couldnt be fed after that.

There wouldnt be 5 babies afk in town, since if just one baby is afk then it's used by the next person as spawn and no new baby is made.

Sukallinen · 2019-05-06 07:18:49

Dodge wrote:

If they only live to three then it's not an issue, plus why feed with berry bowl when you can breastfeed?

Oh, before fertile I go adventure to the wilds, same after. Or as old male I sit by the fire, feeding berries and telling stories about surrounding areas, asking what kids would do and at 55 I still can teach basics to newbies.

Dodge wrote:

There wouldnt be 5 babies afk in town, since if just one baby is afk then it's used by the next person as spawn and no new baby is made.

Yes, and the next person would /die at one after seeing more of town, so there would be several. Often they don't die until I've shown them around a bit and they see no colorful clothes but need to make loom or something and only then /die.

BTW: This kind of idea-throwing goes faster in discord if you're there. I use it without installing (from web-browser) so no need to install anything.

Last edited by Sukallinen (2019-05-06 07:20:10)

JonySky · 2019-05-06 07:24:15

the description of this game is "a multiplayer game of parenting and the construction of civilization"
The current number of baby suicides is so exaggerated that this description loses its meaning
It does not matter if you use the / die command or run to a bear ... the result is the same
I'm not in favor of punishing every action of a player, but this should be more "controlled" maybe you can only use 1 / die every 2 hours of play and penalize the deaths of certain ages

Dodge · 2019-05-06 07:41:39

Sukallinen wrote:

Dodge wrote:
If they only live to three then it's not an issue, plus why feed with berry bowl when you can breastfeed?
Oh, before fertile I go adventure to the wilds, same after. Or as old male I sit by the fire, feeding berries and telling stories about surrounding areas, asking what kids would do and at 55 I still can teach basics to newbies.
Dodge wrote:
There wouldnt be 5 babies afk in town, since if just one baby is afk then it's used by the next person as spawn and no new baby is made.
Yes, and the next person would /die at one after seeing more of town, so there would be several. Often they don't die until I've shown them around a bit and they see no colorful clothes but need to make loom or something and only then /die.
BTW: This kind of idea-throwing goes faster in discord if you're there. I use it without installing (from web-browser) so no need to install anything.

There wouldnt even be born as a new baby, they would take the place of the afk baby that is by the fire.

"The next person" would take the place of the available afk baby.

The only way there would be more than one afk baby is if two person do /die after they already where born as a new baby and no afk baby was available.

Sukallinen · 2019-05-06 07:45:41

Dodge wrote:

There wouldnt even be born as a new baby, they would take the place of the afk baby that is by the fire.

Sorry, I meant I carry a baby for a year or two showing stuff and then they decide to /die. Between these two years several similar things have happened, thus having 3-5 babies in coma (some near fire). If they die at three it still takes all time from one person since they'll be spawning again and again. Edit: or you are born as a baby that dies half a second later of hunger, nice to newbies ? I admit, giving baby some pips more food if not newly-born solves this mostly, but that's already lots of changes.

But yup, I don't have a solution.

Last edited by Sukallinen (2019-05-06 07:48:02)

MultiLife · 2019-05-06 15:37:35

Sukallinen wrote:

JonySky wrote:
I do not want to be annoying, but I've spent time explaining this myself!
Apparently many people in this forum defend this / die practice
but it has become a method to travel to other cities and the way I see this practice is killing the game
w/o /die they'd starve themselves to travel. And that's the way they like to play the game, so be it. But there should be solution (like family line one or something with burying people properly) - not sure what kind of solution will be found best.
Right now about 2 out of 9-11 babies of mine die, so I try not to pick'em up before they say/move/emote. Still often when I show them town then they /die, so I should drop'em first to local nursery fire for three minutes (looking like total newbie, wherein I'm just newbie lol) and stick around a bit.

I like the pregnancy one and the soul idea. I'd love to jump into the body of almost 3 year old baby and get to work without the first boring minutes of baby life. I don't mind missing my birth or naming or obtaining a body that already exists. Spawning in next to a fire with almost 3 year old baby body would be great.
Anyways I defend /die command and the freedom to use it. And I don't use it btw. I don't defend the playstyle of "I pick where I live and don't care about you drowning in bones", yeah it's not cool, but I'm not about punishing or restricting players like that. I don't mind.

And yes lineages and towns dying to SID sucks, but I rest easy knowing it ended to people not wanting to be there.
But, I'd like to give a chance for those last mothers (and men, why not) to come back to revive the place, if they really want to bring it back. Then maybe when you get back, you get kids who want to stay this time around.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-05-06 15:41:45)

Peaches · 2019-05-06 16:02:56

There at least needs to be a cooldown on /die. You could use it dozens of times within the span of a minute, as it is now, and it's starting to get ridiculous. I've lived lives where I have dozens of children, both in cities and even villages, and all but one died of SIDs.

Maybe only let people use three (or five) /dies in an hour. I get that sometimes, yeah, your baby IRL can just die, but I also definitely agree it's killing the game's vibe.

I'd also go so far as to lower baby run speeds, it'd make having them follow you home a pain and a half but it would put a damper on runners. Before /die was available and if I intended to not stick around, I was just a bit more likely to stay anyway just because I couldn't die on command and saw a project that needed working on.

Luniatji · 2019-05-06 16:24:47

The problem with taking cooldown on /die there is a huge stand that if you get a baby while on a cooldown, this kid would A. run away and suicide (and with that, not deleting my birthcooldown. While if they /die I don't have a cooldown) and B. if they decide to stay, they will gonna grief later. "Your stupid and I didn't like it hear, so I'm making sure you regret it!' that kinda stuff.

What I would suggest is to give people an indicator he wouldn't go back to his other life. Something like "You died from Starvation on age thirty - You won't come back here for ninety minutes." so that he wouldn't /die to ga back there. Would give an indicator that /die won't work.

Second, I would suggest that mothers won't get a birth cooldown the first ten seconds after a baby is born. That means that if I walk away to show Baby 1 a camp, I can put him down and pick Baby 2 up, without him already /die-ing on me so I get a cooldown. It now only counts when you pick it up, but at least 60% of the time I even can't pick it up (Because he dies in the first two seconds after birth.)

Beside that.. you can't push people to play a life he wouldn't want. The best way to work is with watching to the preferences/when someone /dies or run away. With that I mean this:
- Player A is not keen on playing as boy. If player A suicide by running/die-in enough the game would "learn" that and give him more chance to be a Girl in first change (So that he don't need to suicide.)
- Player B hates to be born in Eve-camps so as Eve or eve-kid. The game learns that and won't let player B born here. Or at least, far less. (So, player B would be born as gen 4 at least.)
- Player C hates the city with lots of people. Meaning that he will be more likely to be born in an Eve-camp or as eve's kids, because that's where he stays.
- Player D playes everywhere, always. Player D won't get a special role, but will be born in the cases where players A, B and C became less likely to be born.

^This is ofcourse not what the game stands for. The game stand for playing in whatever setting and whatever role (You will be born randomly), but it can work. If the different types go together, that means that there will be far less /die-ing, running or griefing by annoyed players (Because they are where they want to be.) and more cities surviving because they get people who wants to play there.

MultiLife · 2019-05-06 16:46:17

Luniatji wrote:

The problem with taking cooldown on /die there is a huge stand that if you get a baby while on a cooldown, this kid would A. run away and suicide (and with that, not deleting my birthcooldown. While if they /die I don't have a cooldown) and B. if they decide to stay, they will gonna grief later. "Your stupid and I didn't like it hear, so I'm making sure you regret it!' that kinda stuff.
What I would suggest is to give people an indicator he wouldn't go back to his other life. Something like "You died from Starvation on age thirty - You won't come back here for ninety minutes." so that he wouldn't /die to ga back there. Would give an indicator that /die won't work.
Second, I would suggest that mothers won't get a birth cooldown the first ten seconds after a baby is born. That means that if I walk away to show Baby 1 a camp, I can put him down and pick Baby 2 up, without him already /die-ing on me so I get a cooldown. It now only counts when you pick it up, but at least 60% of the time I even can't pick it up (Because he dies in the first two seconds after birth.)
Beside that.. you can't push people to play a life he wouldn't want. The best way to work is with watching to the preferences/when someone /dies or run away. With that I mean this:
- Player A is not keen on playing as boy. If player A suicide by running/die-in enough the game would "learn" that and give him more chance to be a Girl in first change (So that he don't need to suicide.)
- Player B hates to be born in Eve-camps so as Eve or eve-kid. The game learns that and won't let player B born here. Or at least, far less. (So, player B would be born as gen 4 at least.)
- Player C hates the city with lots of people. Meaning that he will be more likely to be born in an Eve-camp or as eve's kids, because that's where he stays.
- Player D playes everywhere, always. Player D won't get a special role, but will be born in the cases where players A, B and C became less likely to be born.
^This is ofcourse not what the game stands for. The game stand for playing in whatever setting and whatever role (You will be born randomly), but it can work. If the different types go together, that means that there will be far less /die-ing, running or griefing by annoyed players (Because they are where they want to be.) and more cities surviving because they get people who wants to play there.

I agree to this fully.

Yeah, limit /die, people will run, poke bears, sit in snow, whatever it takes they'll get out. We should not limit /die thinking that'll fix it. It won't. Not even if there is a 0.5% chance of the kid staying because they had to sit a bit longer there. No, I don't buy that. That's way too unlikely to be a reason to limit /die.
Indications of lineage bans: yes, tell the player what they did and what they caused. I bet many clueless people are doing /die thinking they can get back to a family where they died as over 30 years old. "You are now unavailable to be born as a >family name where you just /died out of OR died in as over 30 year old<".
Rebirth is the bane of the game in a sense, as it makes life cheap and enables player pickiness. However, it's still a game, and it's an amazing thing that we commit to it for ONE HOUR per session! You can't force someone to commit to a game for one hour if they don't like the game. They'll do whatever to end it or to play in ways that you aren't supposed to play as they desperately try to drag entertainment out of a forced session. Then they stop playing altogether.

So, yes, let's rather connect players with similar preferences than let community punish each other with abandonment, cooldowns and ruined gameplay experiences.
You can't force a player to enjoy things they won't enjoy. They always have the freedom to pull the plug or hit alt F4. You can't fight against that. Rather find ways to encourage NOT pulling plugs, hitting alt F4 and make your game so good that people have hard time picking what they like the best.

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-05-07 05:24:37)

JonySky · 2019-05-06 16:49:16

I recommend watching some twitch streaming ... I have seen a streamer committing suicide 10 times in a row, before staying in a city (she did not even look around to check the state of the city or his lineage)

I find it very sad, because this practice is doing a lot of damage to the players, to the lineages, and to OHOL

I'm sick of fighting to get a good level of YUM and temperature and get a lot of suicidal babies

MultiLife · 2019-05-06 16:53:16

JonySky wrote:

I recommend watching some twitch streaming ... I have seen a streamer committing suicide 10 times in a row, before staying in a city (she did not even look around to check the state of the city or his lineage)
I find it very sad, because this practice is doing a lot of damage to the players, to the lineages, and to OHOL
I'm sick of fighting to get a good level of YUM and temperature and get a lot of suicidal babies

I have heard you plenty of times and always the solution is "punish them, restrict them". Anything else?
I just can't speak for you or defend your solutions when I do not see them as the right way to fix it.

I'd love it if the game handed you babies who are very likely to stay, wherever you are in the generations.
However, there will never be enough players to keep every family going. There are too many families to save.

I still think SID is the best way a lineage can end. And then if that happens, maybe a second chance so the "loss" is not so bitter.

futurebird · 2019-05-06 17:35:13

MultiLife wrote:

JonySky wrote:
I recommend watching some twitch streaming ... I have seen a streamer committing suicide 10 times in a row, before staying in a city (she did not even look around to check the state of the city or his lineage)
I find it very sad, because this practice is doing a lot of damage to the players, to the lineages, and to OHOL
I'm sick of fighting to get a good level of YUM and temperature and get a lot of suicidal babies
I have heard you plenty of times and always the solution is "punish them, restrict them". Anything else?

this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/OneLifeSuggest … die_issue/

Also I think it's help if you use /die 3 times in a row you get a screen that says "you have been dying a lot are you sure right now is the best time to play for you?" and made you wait about 15 seconds. Just something to slow people down and get them out of the "rejected, rejected, rejected" cycle.

The screen could even say:

"The next mom you will be born too has been using yum so she wants a child badly. Can you help her?" then push that person to the server yum queen at that moment.

TofuInjection · 2019-05-07 05:06:53

Using /die resets the birth cooldown. So whats the problem? People who didn't want to play with you didn't play with you. There is no good way to force people to play with you. That isn't how games work.

I would suggest not logging the SID babies in the lineage screen so your cool family tree isn't clogged up with players who didn't want to play and won't ever care to look at that tree. I've also seen it suggested that using /die should make the baby crumble to dust so mom doesn't have to clean up bones, which is a great idea; Mom shouldn't be punished for another player using /die.

Limiting player choice further creates way larger problems than it solves.

futurebird · 2019-05-07 06:52:07

TofuInjection wrote:

Using /die resets the birth cooldown. So whats the problem? People who didn't want to play with you didn't play with you. There is no good way to force people to play with you. That isn't how games work.
I would suggest not logging the SID babies in the lineage screen so your cool family tree isn't clogged up with players who didn't want to play and won't ever care to look at that tree. I've also seen it suggested that using /die should make the baby crumble to dust so mom doesn't have to clean up bones, which is a great idea; Mom shouldn't be punished for another player using /die.
Limiting player choice further creates way larger problems than it solves.

IDK if you are responding to the original post because this isn't about limiting the use of /die, but changing the ways that people using it hurts mothers in the game. Picking up /die babies uses food, it stops you in the middle of your work and litters your area with bone spam. If it happened once in a life it would not be a big deal but it happens 3-8 times per a life in most of the lives I lead. That's 5 pointless interruptions. 5 piles of bones (more if its twins) 5 times stoping to type "you are..." only to have the kid die.

There has to be a way to give players some choice and the ability to reject towns they really don't want without annoying other players in the process.

TofuInjection · 2019-05-07 08:02:14

futurebird wrote:

IDK if you are responding to the original post because this isn't about limiting the use of /die, but changing the ways that people using it hurts mothers in the game. Picking up /die babies uses food, it stops you in the middle of your work and litters your area with bone spam. If it happened once in a life it would not be a big deal but it happens 3-8 times per a life in most of the lives I lead. That's 5 pointless interruptions. 5 piles of bones (more if its twins) 5 times stoping to type "you are..." only to have the kid die.
There has to be a way to give players some choice and the ability to reject towns they really don't want without annoying other players in the process.

Right, like I said, I think /die babies shouldn't leave bones. I also think they shouldn't be logged on the family tree. Beyond that, I'm not sure what could really be done about making mom lose hunger pips, or having to pause to pick a baby up. It annoys me too, but I think without some other major rebalancing, it's not really a solvable thing.

The rest of my post was more a response to others suggesting limiting /die usage or doing away with it entirely, which seems kind of ridiculous to me.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-05-06 01:14:03

Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#2 2019-05-06 02:11:46

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#3 2019-05-06 02:23:22

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#4 2019-05-06 06:00:01

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

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Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

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Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

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Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#8 2019-05-06 06:57:16

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#9 2019-05-06 06:59:42

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#10 2019-05-06 07:09:37

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#11 2019-05-06 07:10:14

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#12 2019-05-06 07:18:49

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#13 2019-05-06 07:24:15

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#14 2019-05-06 07:41:39

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#15 2019-05-06 07:45:41

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#16 2019-05-06 15:37:35

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#17 2019-05-06 16:02:56

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#18 2019-05-06 16:24:47

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#19 2019-05-06 16:46:17

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#20 2019-05-06 16:49:16

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#21 2019-05-06 16:53:16

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#22 2019-05-06 17:35:13

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#23 2019-05-07 05:06:53

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#24 2019-05-07 06:52:07

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

#25 2019-05-07 08:02:14

Re: Having a child should be a moment of joy... not like getting spam

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