Checking the content for this week

Spoonwood · 2019-05-04 14:29:56

FeignedSanity wrote:

Adding a kerosene wick burner to any newcomen machine turns it into a pump.
For example: newcomen lathe + kerosene wick burner = dry kerosene newcomen pump.
https://edge.onetech.info/2348-Kerosene-Wick-Burner

That seems odd, because the newcomen charcoal pump has to be in full wet stage for the wick burner to get attached to it: https://onehouronelife.gamepedia.com/Newcomen_Pump I also saw someone fail to put the wick burner on a charcoal pump until it was fully wet the other day also on a Twitch stream. So, I doubt onetech is correct there. It might have been at some point and just hasn't gotten updated.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-04 14:31:27

pein wrote:

grid lien will make cities generic
if it's a distinct visible line, people will follow it
the eve always runs EW
the line will be used as main road
the farms will be under or top of it
the horizontal or box shape biomes will be better than the amorf shaped
each city will feel more generic
running with a horse you will see a lot of those lines

So it will increase the feasibility of finding other towns? That could mean more roads between towns.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-04 14:42:11

futurebird wrote:

This will force some of us to learn some of the higher tech. I think it makes kerosine pumps kinda pointless...

I don't think it will make the kerosone pump pointless. Once you have a kerosone tank, it requires just one processed iron for wick housing and a rope for the wick burner. So, if the town doesn't have 18 iron (plus some more for replacing relevant steel tools or extra, relevant, steel tools laying around) when you get the rig up, the kerosone pump can pay off. Problem though is that you don't have any idea about it busting. One use nets you two more buckets of water than the charcoal pump, and that's not quite enough to justify the upgrade. 20 uses though sounds like enough.

That said if you can just skip the kerosone pump or think your descendants can skip the kerosone pump do it. Heck, if you can skip the charcoal pump, do it. You will need rubber for the engine, rig, pulley drive mechanism, and timing belt. And both the engine and the oil rig need buckets of water to run. Your family doesn't want a bucket? **** it.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-04 14:47:58

I think this change will be interesting. Does it make the game better? I don't know. It probably DOES in my opinion since people who play to make high tech stuff, which is going to happen, now have some reason to actually make a diesel engine and do oil. So, I think it will result in more players who end up playing for the survival of their lineage. It doesn't make tech more important than food or clothing, but tech shouldn't be that way anyways. That said, it changes the game and there might be some learning curve to this. Pein might also have a strong point as he almost always does having a deep understanding of game mechanics. But, I'm not so sure that generic towns are bad or having it so that it will be easier to find other towns will be bad. So, time will tell, but I suspect this will be a good change for the game.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-05-04 14:48:47)

Buggy · 2019-05-04 15:18:50

I agree with morti that these changes may be tough on the average player. While people who are active in the forums and read them every day have a lot of time to think about what to do when the patch goes live most other players just log in and everything is different. This experience can be frustrating when the change makes the gameplay more difficult like in the temperature update. While I am excited to see what will change in the game with this update you may want to consider adding a " warning big changes ahead" in a place where everyone will see it. This wouldn't be necessary for content like clothes and new fun foods and tech just for stuff like this.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-04 15:53:05

Morti wrote:

FeignedSanity wrote:
Small changes are boring. I believe the game to be more exciting this way.
Exciting... yeah, there is not enough EXCITEMENT in games.
We need more EXCITEMENT in parenting games.
More EXCITEMENT in city builders.
More EXCITEMENT in crafting games.
Right.
We're here for the EXCITEMENT!

Obviously, if you say it so. I wouldn't ever think to speak on everyone's behalf, I can only speak for myself and my opinions. But how nice of you to be the voice of the entire community of this game. I'm glad you can speak on everyone's behalf to confirm that EVERYONE IS HERE FOR THE EXCITEMENT. Gosh, it sure is nice to know that everyone who plays this game is of the same opinion. BRING ON THE EXCITEMENT!

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-04 15:56:20

Spoonwood wrote:

FeignedSanity wrote:
Adding a kerosene wick burner to any newcomen machine turns it into a pump.
For example: newcomen lathe + kerosene wick burner = dry kerosene newcomen pump.
https://edge.onetech.info/2348-Kerosene-Wick-Burner
That seems odd, because the newcomen charcoal pump has to be in full wet stage for the wick burner to get attached to it: https://onehouronelife.gamepedia.com/Newcomen_Pump I also saw someone fail to put the wick burner on a charcoal pump until it was fully wet the other day also on a Twitch stream. So, I doubt onetech is correct there. It might have been at some point and just hasn't gotten updated.

Yes, that is how it works right now (i already submitted a github issue on this).

As far as the issue I layed out here, this is with the unreleased content. Click the link and check at the top. He asked for issues with the content that is going to be released this week. That was one of them.

Twisted · 2019-05-04 16:01:56

Spoonwood wrote:

FeignedSanity wrote:
Adding a kerosene wick burner to any newcomen machine turns it into a pump.
For example: newcomen lathe + kerosene wick burner = dry kerosene newcomen pump.
https://edge.onetech.info/2348-Kerosene-Wick-Burner
That seems odd, because the newcomen charcoal pump has to be in full wet stage for the wick burner to get attached to it: https://onehouronelife.gamepedia.com/Newcomen_Pump I also saw someone fail to put the wick burner on a charcoal pump until it was fully wet the other day also on a Twitch stream. So, I doubt onetech is correct there. It might have been at some point and just hasn't gotten updated.

Onetech is not wrong as it always pulls the data directly from the code. This was a bug that existed when the kerosene pump was first added, and Jason had to change it so you can only upgrade the wet pump. If the kerosene upgrade recipe is on the dry pump that makes it so any newcomen engine can be upgraded into a kerosene pump. Jason probably just forgot about it when he was changing the recipe.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-04 16:11:16

Twisted wrote:

Onetech is not wrong as it always pulls the data directly from the code. This was a bug that existed when the kerosene pump was first added, and Jason had to change it so you can only upgrade the wet pump. If the kerosene upgrade recipe is on the dry pump that makes it so any newcomen engine can be upgraded into a kerosene pump. Jason probably just forgot about it when he was changing the recipe.

How does that make any sense? The "Dry Newcomen Pump" and the "Multipurpose Newcomen Engine" are two different objects. How does being able to upgrade the pump when it's dry affect the newcomen engine?

Twisted · 2019-05-04 16:15:09

IIRC they're both in the Newcomen category and they share the recipe process of adding water/coal. There's a post or Discord message by Jason somewhere where he explained why the bug happened, but it was something along those lines.

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-04 16:39:10

FeignedSanity:

Yikes, you're right. Fixed that. Only wet pumps could be upgraded for a very good reason (this reason), but I couldn't remember the reason, so I changed it so that you could upgrade dry pumps. Big mistake.

And what a nightmare this would have been..... people could have made pump wells everywhere, undercutting the whole point of the update!

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-04 17:49:25

jasonrohrer wrote:

FeignedSanity:
Yikes, you're right. Fixed that. Only wet pumps could be upgraded for a very good reason (this reason), but I couldn't remember the reason, so I changed it so that you could upgrade dry pumps. Big mistake.
And what a nightmare this would have been..... people could have made pump wells everywhere, undercutting the whole point of the update!

Happy to help!

Although I still don't really get why. Seems like it would be something that could be fixed. Gonna really be annoying that you still can only upgrade wet pumps -_-

Spoonwood · 2019-05-04 18:26:50

FeignedSanity wrote:

Twisted wrote:
Onetech is not wrong as it always pulls the data directly from the code. This was a bug that existed when the kerosene pump was first added, and Jason had to change it so you can only upgrade the wet pump. If the kerosene upgrade recipe is on the dry pump that makes it so any newcomen engine can be upgraded into a kerosene pump. Jason probably just forgot about it when he was changing the recipe.
How does that make any sense? The "Dry Newcomen Pump" and the "Multipurpose Newcomen Engine" are two different objects. How does being able to upgrade the pump when it's dry affect the newcomen engine?

All of those run off of a newcomen atmospheric core, which is a crude piston with a rubber seal attached to a boiler with cylinder on it.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-04 18:44:36

@spoonwood

I am well aware of what an atmospheric core is and what it's made of. So it's not the newcomen pump that's being upgraded with the kerosene wick, but the atmospheric core? I don't see why that is. I guess it has to do with the spaghetti code, so it's all above my head. And it's probably ignorant to say that it shouldn't be a problem, but I feel like that should be fixable. Maybe it's just not worth it.

BladeWoods · 2019-05-04 18:59:24

I suppose making a Pump 20 that after firing and taking the water from turns into Pump 19 that turns into Pump 18 then into Pump 17... would be a little ridiculous?

Morti, doing 'small' changes like that would take 5 times as much work and 5 times as much time. And I think it would be even worse to have to get used to a different water balance every single week.

Doing something like a 10% to turn into drying and then a 10% to turn into exhausted, so there's two stages, would keep the average number of uses at 20, but the chance of becoming exhausted after one use would be impossible, and the chance of being exhausted after two tries would be down to 1% vs 4.75%. So there would be a lot less variability.

And idk if this hack is possible, but maybe you could use a random seed that always gets desired result after 20th generation?

Spoonwood · 2019-05-04 19:58:37

Buggy wrote:

I agree with morti that these changes may be tough on the average player. While people who are active in the forums and read them every day have a lot of time to think about what to do when the patch goes live most other players just log in and everything is different. This experience can be frustrating when the change makes the gameplay more difficult like in the temperature update. While I am excited to see what will change in the game with this update you may want to consider adding a " warning big changes ahead" in a place where everyone will see it. This wouldn't be necessary for content like clothes and new fun foods and tech just for stuff like this.

Resources such as milkweed and wild food are more abundant. But, you might be right. The water supply will be more challenging now, in significant part because well clusters are dead. Might want stone roads running along those fault lines, and might want to run buckets at least until a diesel water pump is up. A good group might get a diesel engine off of one deep well also getting used for farms and the kitchen (going to need buckets earlier!) before it runs dry, or not as challengning, a pump before it busts. But, I'm inclined to agree that this update will make later game more challenging. However, it barely affects Eve camps, as ponds and milkweed appear more frequently (the badlands I saw seemed to have more big hard rocks also, but I'm not so sure about iron... wasn't seeing new areas though).

Morti · 2019-05-04 19:58:43

Sukallinen wrote:

I think each change takes almost the same amount of time to code-install-bugfix, so for progress there needs to be sudden change, sad.

None of any of this needs to be any way.

If Jason wants to make a great game, he should be willing to spend 30 years on it if that's what it takes, and make it right.

It's not like he has to be making a new game after 3 years of working on this one.

Come to think of it, this is an entirely new type of game, in terms of the raising the family while surviving and building a village/town/city/culture/civilization.

This raising of other players while time is passing, and the players dying of old age, is something that should be done well and done right the first time, to set a precedence for games to come.

Could you imagine a game like World of Warcraft, where you are born to a family in Stormwind or Orgrimmar, or anywhere for that matter? The person who can choose to raise you or not, is directly responsible for the life you can potentially go on to live, whether that is a life of murdering the other faction, healing your own, raising your fallen faction members little orc children, fighting demons or making linen bags for other players.

Imagine if every day that passed in real life, was a year in WoW time, and you had to play for a week as a child, learning the ropes of the situation you were born into, while you struggled to survive until you were strong enough that you could kill small animals with a light weapon.

Different races, with different longevities, some living to 60 years old, 120, or hundreds of years. Different comparable mechanics for beings like the undead, where the magic responsible for their state, fades away, as health does for the races that age for more conventional reasons.

--

Imagine a game like Sid Meier's Civilization, where once the game starts, all players are born into the world as NPC's and have to work their way up the ranks of their civs before being able to make decisions like moving armies or giving orders to do simple things like building wells, houses or wonders to the NPCs of their nation. Now imagine other players can join into such games, born into the same nation, and can be raised by other players to continue the fight against the other tribes, nations or planets even.

--

This mechanic of being born into a world, raised and dying of old age if nothing else kills you, is a game mechanic that can change so many genres and impact so many people, it's use should not be tarnished or shadowed by other mechanics.

Maybe in a decade it will catch on, and in a decade after that it will be a fad, but I highly doubt it, as it is so fundamental to life in general. This is the absolute opposite of all the killing we see in far, far too many games.

This is not what life is about; killing. It has become this, as cells began to cannibalize each other as a way to save time, before turning on other dying, weak and even healthy cells, before they started working together, in clusters and became multicellular organisms. It was all amazing, but the story of life's beginning, whether being born a helpless child, aging and dying at any stage along the way, or, the story of life's beginning billions of years ago, as a primary producer, which is still what the vast majority of living organisms on this planet are to this day, is a story; a mechanic, which people are yearning for, I guarantee it.

We should stop letting murderers dictate the mindset of the gaming industry. This aspect of life; being born and raised by others, who help us on our way to filling the role in society we are drawn to, by their influence, is an aspect that could easily change the world, through games. The real world, where people are still murdering each other, right this minute, where life is continuing to slaughter life, because that is all it knows to do to survive.

We've come so far, but a greater distance remains ahead. How that future unfolds will seem to be dictated by the mind of the present, and the choices they make, whether to love, and to care, for life itself, in as many forms as we can feasibly manage, or to remain selfish, to fight each other for survival and to kill off more than we are responsible for birthing and fostering, into the world.

I don't know where the best place to initiate such a radical shift in the mindset of humanity is, but games seem like a pretty good medium for reaching people's minds.

Now, I know Jason is not going to be capable of shifting the entire population of the planet's mindset in our lifetime, with one mechanic, or even, his entire life's work on all his games combined, but this game is a very good step in the right direction. It is a very good way to remind people of their beginning, and what it has taken, what it has taken for each of us to be, such that life may carry on. And not the murdering each other part, that's the part we have to realize is detrimental to our existence at this, and every age of technology yet to come.

I wish the other lessons that Jason wants to share via the game, didn't get in the way of the one regarding caring for each other. To me, it's not only the most important lesson that could be taught via this game, it's the most important lesson for life itself.
It is unfortunate the hundreds of millions of years of our ancestry has had to endure death by it's own hands, teeth and tools, but it wasn't like this, for billions of years, and if we can do the right thing and provide life with more than enough than it needs through our technology, than maybe in a billion years, and for all time after that, it will never have to be like this again.

All the space and resources in the universe, are out there, waiting, for life. How those resources are born into the world, and what mechanism they are born into, hinges, on the state of life that brings it into existence. We could turn every planet into a sextillion murderous people, that live to kill each other, or we can bring a sextillion people into existence from each world, each with it's role in the process of converting every planet into the chemistry to sustain a sextillion more and life from Earth can grow throughout the stars and galaxies, for more time than it has ever known.

Every step on that journey, is necessary. Every one we take, in the present, is the most important one we can take, at any time.

Here on Earth, the greatest highways began as space, between blades of grass. Where the smallest of creatures tread, making way for larger and larger animals, until people followed those paths, people that brought with them other animals and machines. Those paths became wider, and wider and were traveled by vehicles at ever increasing speeds, between each repaving. Every stone, every shovel of asphalt, every truckload of concrete, every bridge of wood and steel, each action initiated by a single person, at any time, part of a series of steps.

This game, these mechanics, of birth, care, and aging, these are steps in the right direction. The right direction being the one that is most beneficial to life itself, in the greatest number of it's forms. The one that brings the most of it into existence, in the largest volume, containing the greatest amount, and variety of resources, with all the ability and information capable to accelerate it's own process of growth.

This gave rise to us, and with every breath, this we carry on.

--

Sorry if I typed a lot, or even, too much for you. I do this a lot, and most of the time I wind up deleting most of it or just closing the tab and forgetting that I had some kind of message to send at all.
I don't want to delete this one this time, I'm getting too old and too unhealthy to keep deleting messages because I thought I said too much. I'll submit it and leave it up to someone else, to erase what I say this time.

pein · 2019-05-04 23:51:16

Spoonwood wrote:

pein wrote:
grid lien will make cities generic
if it's a distinct visible line, people will follow it
the eve always runs EW
the line will be used as main road
the farms will be under or top of it
the horizontal or box shape biomes will be better than the amorf shaped
each city will feel more generic
running with a horse you will see a lot of those lines
So it will increase the feasibility of finding other towns? That could mean more roads between towns.

you don't need roads at all, you got them horizontally
so as long the two cities are horizontal then you follow the line

the springs are fixed so just upgrade them level 1, then one sign to show where is next
lets say you build a road under the springs and a tree line between the springs (pine so you can cut and make into wood floor under the spring

then a sign on the bottom means you need to turn that way, on top means the city is on top on right means that is on right
we don't have to make signs per say, just a human made object with a pointer
like one piece of fast road and a home marker

this can connect 40x40 area with other 40x40 area, just upgrade springs between towns, if not straight, you can choose a turn to good biomes

it will increase the probability that you build stuff horizontally

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-05 01:14:33

After poking around in the world and looking at some villages, I think that 40 is too close together.

Jk Howling · 2019-05-05 05:31:46

I like that you're finally making higher water tech required for progress, but I'd like to ask that you consider adjusting the iron spawn rates alongside this. A big reason as to why you nerfed them in the first place was because we had no true iron sink at the time. The only thing we really needed iron for was for tools. Railways were in the game but aren't and will never be true sinks for iron because they're (mostly) useless.

Now that we're actually required to upgrade our water tech, we're gonna need a lot of Iron to do it. With a proper iron sink now- and one we need to attain quite quickly for that matter- I think its time for the spawn rates to go back up. If not the mines, then at least the ground spawns, so we might reach mine levels quickly enough to sustain our water supply.

ruanna · 2019-05-05 10:20:35

Suggestion: new tech that allows for SPRINKLERS. but they must be linked to a diesel well. Honestly early game tasks can be tedious and (reality aside) I want a game progression that is satisfying in that it allows me to do more for less work.

futurebird · 2019-05-05 11:53:11

ruanna wrote:

Suggestion: new tech that allows for SPRINKLERS. but they must be linked to a diesel well. Honestly early game tasks can be tedious and (reality aside) I want a game progression that is satisfying in that it allows me to do more for less work.

Sprinkler would be an attachment for the siesel well, watters plants in a 5x5 around the well when you run it to get buckets of water, returns fewer buckets of water due to the watering. So for berries you still need to do soil or with other plants plant seeds, but it would be fun to use.

Booklat1 · 2019-05-05 15:11:57

Jk Howling wrote:

I like that you're finally making higher water tech required for progress, but I'd like to ask that you consider adjusting the iron spawn rates alongside this. A big reason as to why you nerfed them in the first place was because we had no true iron sink at the time. The only thing we really needed iron for was for tools. Railways were in the game but aren't and will never be true sinks for iron because they're (mostly) useless.
Now that we're actually required to upgrade our water tech, we're gonna need a lot of Iron to do it. With a proper iron sink now- and one we need to attain quite quickly for that matter- I think its time for the spawn rates to go back up. If not the mines, then at least the ground spawns, so we might reach mine levels quickly enough to sustain our water supply.

let us make newcomen pumps in mines so we get some extra iron + makes mines useful long term

thundersen · 2019-05-05 15:41:43

Booklat1 wrote:

let us make newcomen pumps in mines so we get some extra iron + makes mines useful long term

This person who shamelessly engages in off-topic content suggestions is goddamn right!

antking:]# · 2019-05-05 16:20:46

jasonrohrer wrote:

After poking around in the world and looking at some villages, I think that 40 is too close together.

defiantly just 40 tiles apart is very close together since you can walk 4 tiles per second I personally think they should be very far apart to encourage people to advance in travailing teck.

the farthest a person can walk in one life is 14400 tiles this isn't recommended for spring distance

but I think that 1200 tiles = 5 min would be prime because its close enough for people to walk to and far enouph for people to want to advance in the travel teck tree!

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