Buildings and you.

Tarr · 2019-04-13 11:22:24

I've made them, you've made them, griefers have made them. Jason attempted to push buildings into being more important in the temperature rehaul and unfortunately, we've mostly just built them for aesthetics and organization since then. However, even with the buildings in an unbuffed state most buildings can either be designed to be useful or be created in a way that improves village they're located in.

Size Matters

If you want a building to be as useful as possible it needs to be designed correctly from the start of the project to the finish. Generally speaking if the room you are building will have a fire in it you do not want the workers every being further than two tiles away from the rooms fire or else the fire isn't doing too much to help them. This means a perfectly sized room with no storage will end up being a 5x5 room with the fire being dead center in the room. Generally speaking, something like this would be a small bakery or a nursery where you don't plan on storing clothing for the kids. Unfortunately, if someone decides to add boxes to a room of this size however, it will end up decrease the available work tiles which obviously makes working or setting items down harder within the walls of your bakery/nursery. Other good design ideas are 7x7 with all walls having boxes around them in an attempt to corral players into the warm zones or 5x6 where you place boxes along the longer wall thus reducing the actual work space to 5x5.

Where you build matters

Yaira was absolutely ahead of their time trying to stuff buildings inside of jungles at the start of the update. Where as buildings in a cold neutral are basically useless without a fire, buildings within a hot neutral are absolutely excellent without need of a fire. However, these things have a few drawbacks when compared to their neutral counterparts. Hot neutrals (referred to as jungles from now on) basically require every single tile to be properly covered or they'll do nothing to block out the heat. Jungle buildings also require the door to be shut at all times or else the temperature will start to shoot up until the door is closed again. They also do not play well with fires within the building meaning you either need to open the door to do fire related tasks or do some sort of gimmick such as firebrand juggling to prevent overheating.

The biggest thing about jungle buildings however is that they have much MUCH better passive temperature compared to neutral buildings. As long as players aren't flipping the door open and closed 24/7 you shouldn't be suffering rising temperature, and even if this happens you can always just take your shirt off for a few seconds after the door closes to cool off faster. A jungle building makes for a great small town nursery, storage, or personal bakery. A jungle building doesn't require specialized room design to capitalize on a fires heat distribution to a room so a 1x1 is as well heated as a 7x7 which means you have much more options of what you can do within the building. At the very least, this type of building can be used to create heated sheep pens.

Adobe or stone?

This is more of a preference thing but either material is valuable for creating your villages first building. Adobe is easier to move around with a maximum of 24 being movable at a time (upgraded cart with six baskets, backpack, shorts, apron) which means you can technically move 12 walls of adobe at a time vs a cut stones which is four at a time. Adobe also can be started from any age where as cut stone has a requirement age of fourteen before being able to pick it up. Stone has the advantage of not requiring a touch up every ten hour or plaster to make sure it won't decay. Depending on the technique used to collect adobe the shovel usable will be equal or lean towards adobe being the better building option. If you only use reed tops for adobe (or straw) an adobe building will use no shovel charges what so ever while it will match shovel uses if you do a 1:1 tops + stumps to make each wall. The only time a stone building is better shovel wise is when you are only digging up reed stumps (whyyyy).

This mostly comes down to a preference on what you use but honestly adobe is generally the better building material IF you make sure to plaster it yourself or can actually trust your children to do it. Stone is the better building material if lazy or potentially wanting a more aesthetic building.

General rules of building:

-If it has a fire in it you want the players at max two tiles away from the fire for maximum toastiness.
-If a building is built for warmth, babies go beside the fire and not on it.
-Springy doors should be installed after you crack an iron vein. Each building should have 2-3 doors depending on size and where it is located.
-If you have jungles nearby you should have jungle buildings, if not normal buildings should be designed to purposely keep players within effective fire distance.

Last edited by Tarr (2019-04-14 06:44:40)

Spoonwood · 2019-04-13 12:06:37

No, I haven't made buildings.

Edit: I have helped to make bulidings in other people's towns. But, that's not a project that I've started, and I've only done it when I know that's what someone else wants done. It's more of a favor than anything else.

Tarr wrote:

Unfortunately, if someone decides to add boxes to a room of this size however, it will end up decrease the available work tiles which obviously makes working or setting items down harder within the walls of your bakery/nursery.

Sledges can get moved through.

Tarr wrote:

As long as players aren't flipping the door open and closed 24/7 you shouldn't be suffering rising temperature, and even if this happens you can always just take your shirt off for a few seconds after the door closes to cool off faster.

Have you done that with someone else opening and shutting the door? Because when I've passed into hot biomes with clothing I just notice that I'm less insulated from the shock, with clothing just making me less vulnerable to the shock. I thought he changed it so that clothing doesn't heat you in hot biomes.

Tarr wrote:

A jungle building makes for a great small town nursery, storage, or personal bakery.

I do NOT think that you can get as close to the center with a jungle building as you can with fire.

Heated sheep pends sounds nice... but a building for a sheep pen comes as slow. So does there exist enough benefit to justify a second sheep? Also, won't you need an airlock system for a heated sheep pen, or do the corners of a building not end up needed for the wall and flooring effect to work (in Rimworld, corners for buildings aren't needed)? I've consistently found airlock animal pens more difficulty to use than sheep pens with corner berry bushes.

It takes less time to dig up reed stumps than any other method, given that you have enough reed stumps. You also lose the adobe if no one digs them up.

The set up period for a jungle building also ends up worse, because of mosquitoes (alright... maybe it's a small jungle... maybe they don't exist in that area), but also because of the potential of clothing to heat you towards the middle immediately instead of having to wait for the effect with a jungle building.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-04-13 13:43:28)

Tarr · 2019-04-13 13:01:27

Spoonwood wrote:

Tarr wrote:
Unfortunately, if someone decides to add boxes to a room of this size however, it will end up decrease the available work tiles which obviously makes working or setting items down harder within the walls of your bakery/nursery.
Sledges can get moved through.

Sure, but how many people are going to move the boxes out of the way? They put them there to store items and not just be dragged out of the room.

Tarr wrote:

As long as players aren't flipping the door open and closed 24/7 you shouldn't be suffering rising temperature, and even if this happens you can always just take your shirt off for a few seconds after the door closes to cool off faster.

Spoonwood wrote:

Have you done that with someone else opening and shutting the door? Because when I've passed into hot biomes with clothing I just notice that I'm less insulated from the shock, with clothing just making me less vulnerable to the shock. I thought he changed it so that clothing doesn't heat you in hot biomes.

This isn't shock occurring whenever you have the door open it's more akin to moving on top of a fire whenever the door open. You'll shock whenever you first step into the room but as long as the door shuts behind you you'll start losing temperature just about as rapidly as you'd gain it from having an open door. Door opening = gaining temperature until you reach what you normally would within the biome. Closing door = lowering temperature until you reach the jungle room min.

Tarr wrote:

A jungle building makes for a great small town nursery, storage, or personal bakery.

Spoonwood wrote:

I do NOT think that you can get as close to the center with a jungle building as you can with fire.

You're right but there's a few things. For a jungle room to be beat by a heated room nude you have to be within one tile of the fire which greatly limits your work space at a better temperature. With full nondecaying clothing you'll be slightly better than a jungle room at up to two tiles away from the fire, and at three tiles away from the fire the jungle room wins. A jungle room also is better for babies since most mothers are going to set their baby on the fire instead of next to it which is too hot for a baby rather than standing nude in a jungle room. Jungle rooms also have the advantage of not costing firewood while giving a bonus so put your nursery in a jungle, fire in a bakery, and let bakers and moms not mingle.

Spoonwood wrote:

Heated sheep pends sounds nice... but a building for a sheep pen comes as slow. So does there exist enough benefit to justify a second sheep? Also, won't you need an airlock system for a heated sheep pen, or do the corners of a building not end up needed for the wall and flooring effect to work (in Rimworld, corners for buildings aren't needed)? I've consistently found airlock animal pens more difficulty to use than sheep pens with corner berry bushes.

You can build door locks in various methods to prevent sheep from escaping from a heated sheep pen just like you would a normal sheep pen. One method for example is setting up two one way doors, one which would be the entrance and the other would be your exit. A second heated sheep pen would likely be a mid to late game project as an upgrade over your normal cold pen as the people wanting clothes would burn less food and what not.

Spoonwood wrote:

It takes less time to dig up reed stumps than any other method, given that you have enough reed stumps. You also lose the adobe if no one digs them up.

I don't really put too much value on the stumps as reeds and wheat are both pretty common in their respective biomes to not have to worry if you lose stumps here and there.

Spoonwood wrote:

The set up period for a jungle building also ends up worse, because of mosquitoes (alright... maybe it's a small jungle... maybe they don't exist in that area), but also because of the potential of clothing to heat you towards the middle immediately instead of having to wait for the effect with a jungle building.

For jungle building you just scatter items along the area you are going to build in to prevent mosquitoes from moving into any of the open tiles. Clothing wise you'll likely shock a little before either gaining a bit of heat as you were too well dressed (BiS clothing basically) or end up losing temperature as the area starts to cool you off.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-13 13:59:18

Tarr wrote:

For jungle building you just scatter items along the area you are going to build in to prevent mosquitoes from moving into any of the open tiles. Clothing wise you'll likely shock a little before either gaining a bit of heat as you were too well dressed (BiS clothing basically) or end up losing temperature as the area starts to cool you off.

If I recall correctly, it's 6 tiles deep that animals can't move. So you need a bunch of junk there. If it's like a 6x6 pen, you almost surely want a cooked rabbit, which you might not have before trying to set this project up. The person setting it up also needs to know to make the building walls before the flooring, because though items block mosquitoes, flooring does not. Where is this building also? The edge of the jungle, unless you're lucky, correct? But, then getting palm oil can become more dangerous since the ratio of mosquitoes to tiles is smaller, and you have to go further into the jungle for palm oil. Then again, if you have it elsewhere, that's not a problem.

If playing on the bigserver, I'd rather just make everyone wooden shoes with those butt logs. It's quicker and immediately effective for everyone everywhere. The person shoveling dung from the sheep pen to the compost pile, probably benefits more from wooden shoes than a better temperature sheep pen, since farming in jungle is inferior to farming in a neutral biome with clothes.

futurebird · 2019-04-13 14:12:24

I feel like there is a lot of talk of the utility of buildings for warmth and saving food, but not enough focus on what I view as their more important purposes:

-Organization of workspaces
-Preventing unneeded traffic in workspaces
-Giving a town a sense of place and identity

A forge can benefit from walls, but the area must be very large to allow for further expansion. Having a floor in such spaces is nice, but don't let the floor set a limit on the size. 8x8 can work but it might need to be larger. Bakeries tend to be much too large. A width of 5 with storage boxes is ideal since bakers work in sets of 4. 5x5 to 5x7 works nicely with the oven near the center. Fishing shacks can be quite tiny. 2x3 or 2x1. Nurseries can be adjoined to the bakery but need to be their own room. Smaller sizes help the fire to work better so storage boxes help keep people in the warm zone.

Tarr · 2019-04-13 15:20:31

In one life I ended up cobbling together a 6x5 which is fine for a solo project. Was a bit too far away for this bakery to actually be any use but it's proof of concept anyways.

Spoonwood wrote:

Tarr wrote:
For jungle building you just scatter items along the area you are going to build in to prevent mosquitoes from moving into any of the open tiles. Clothing wise you'll likely shock a little before either gaining a bit of heat as you were too well dressed (BiS clothing basically) or end up losing temperature as the area starts to cool you off.
If I recall correctly, it's 6 tiles deep that animals can't move. So you need a bunch of junk there. If it's like a 6x6 pen, you almost surely want a cooked rabbit, which you might not have before trying to set this project up. The person setting it up also needs to know to make the building walls before the flooring, because though items block mosquitoes, flooring does not. Where is this building also? The edge of the jungle, unless you're lucky, correct? But, then getting palm oil can become more dangerous since the ratio of mosquitoes to tiles is smaller, and you have to go further into the jungle for palm oil. Then again, if you have it elsewhere, that's not a problem.
If playing on the bigserver, I'd rather just make everyone wooden shoes with those butt logs. It's quicker and immediately effective for everyone everywhere. The person shoveling dung from the sheep pen to the compost pile, probably benefits more from wooden shoes than a better temperature sheep pen, since farming in jungle is inferior to farming in a neutral biome with clothes.

The only time you ever need junk is when you're moving the mosquitoes out of an area and if you're doing that you can even trap them if you want. For animals you make a special lock they cannot walk through which will end up looking like > or < depending on which side you are entering/closing from. If you care about making the butt logs into shoes then make your nearly broken mallets into clogs instead of wasting a full mallet to make shoes. Jungle buildings also have the advantage of being able to be a series of rooms which all get the heated effect of a jungle vs having a bunch of solo rooms which would require fires AND be colder than the jungle unless you were right up on the fire.

futurebird wrote:

I feel like there is a lot of talk of the utility of buildings for warmth and saving food, but not enough focus on what I view as their more important purposes:
-Organization of workspaces
-Preventing unneeded traffic in workspaces
-Giving a town a sense of place and identity
A forge can benefit from walls, but the area must be very large to allow for further expansion. Having a floor in such spaces is nice, but don't let the floor set a limit on the size. 8x8 can work but it might need to be larger. Bakeries tend to be much too large. A width of 5 with storage boxes is ideal since bakers work in sets of 4. 5x5 to 5x7 works nicely with the oven near the center. Fishing shacks can be quite tiny. 2x3 or 2x1. Nurseries can be adjoined to the bakery but need to be their own room. Smaller sizes help the fire to work better so storage boxes help keep people in the warm zone.

Sure, this is an actual valid concern. I am mostly looking to use buildings as Jason wanted them to be used in the first place since he hasn't exactly decided on buffing them yet or figured something to make normal neutral buildings useful.

On both an organization level and flow of traffic you can make complex buildings when making things in a neutral biome unlike how you would do in a normal neutral. You are not punished for making a hallway (as it'll be heated) so long as you are making sure to shut doors (use spring doors duh) so you are able to keep buildings both separated from each other and still connected at the same time.

In regards to regular buildings anytime you get away from that center of the room fire you are worse off than having built a jungle building. Naked you need to be around one tile away, and with clothes once you get three tiles away the normal jungle temperature will beat out a heated room.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-13 16:19:24

Tarr wrote:

In regards to regular buildings anytime you get away from that center of the room fire you are worse off than having built a jungle building. Naked you need to be around one tile away, and with clothes once you get three tiles away the normal jungle temperature will beat out a heated room.

I have a strong preference for "open air" nurseries for this very reason. Fires are only really useful in the immediate area around them due to radiant heat. The convection heat is just too weak and too unevenly distributed across the room to justify making indoor work spaces. The heated area is not large enough to allow a nice work area for a smithy, bakery, or the like. And the workers will constantly go in and out of the area, exposing themselves to outside air and potentially leaving the door open. The only useful heating application is for making a small nursery, since babies can just stand around in one spot until grown. But you don't even need a building for that.

If you set-up two large slow fires, separated by one tile, the center tile is essentially perfect temp for babies without any walls or floors required. Since babies can stack onto a single tile, you don't need all the tiles around the fire to be a good temp. One tile is enough. Building an entire room to contain the warmth means you can achieve something similar with a single fire to reduce firewood consumption, but the amount of labor and material that go into making a 5x5 building is significantly greater. And it is a big project that takes a long time to finish. Also, since you MUST have the door closed to gain the benefits of an enclosed space, all rooms suffer from constant foot-traffic. The doors block movement, making it harder to move from inside to outside, but leaving the doors open defeats the purpose of building the enclosed room. Even worse, a building is much more grief-able than an open space. I've seen too many people die because the bakery/smithy/nursery door(s) were locked by griefers, trapping everyone inside. I have been in too many towns with buildings that have holes broken in the walls and locks on the original doors - clear signs of past griefing attempts. I don't trust walls. They don't do enough good to make up for the potential for harm.

Open-air nurseries are possible in any town with adequate access to firewood. You can make one as soon as you have an ax. There is almost always an abundance of firewood (or potential firewood) within a few screens of your town. By the time you run out of nearby trees, you should have a cart or upgraded cart or horse-cart. If you are running low on trees close enough for carting, you should be planting them for future generations. Pine trees for firewood, maple for long shafts, lobar poplars for kindling, and a couple juniper for tender. Running out of firewood is not a real concern, in my opinion.

I have no problem with defining spaces using wooden floors and boxes. These can be easily rearranged or moved if the needs of the town change. But I don't build enclosed spaces. They are pointless death-traps. If you must have walls, build them out of sugar cane. Beautiful and tasty!

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-04-13 16:19:48)

pein · 2019-04-13 16:41:13

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=3933

one way doors
simply just diagonally blocked, so other side they cnat enter, it's good to control the flow of people

i was talking with yaira, small nuances about building and airspace
but i kinda forgot about building on jungles

naturally you put the edge of building on the outside of biome, then the back, on the jungle, a pen type entrance prevents mosquitoes and can have a door as well
now that you want a loom anyway, you can make 4 copper rods instead of 2 only, then you need 2 more copper and you get two copper hammer thingies, combined with boards on top of floor you get the spark gap thingy which is like a bush for a pen but on flooring

the pen can still be near, or outside, also combined with the berry farm, just have a full diagonal line of berry exiting the pen, it actually cost the same as the normal pen, so you just combine the berry farm with the sheep pen

this one has 12 spaces, like a normal 3x4, 18 walls, 18-4=14, 2x3+2x4= 14
you can put x shape or several diagonal stripes of berry
gotta try convert some berry farm to this type

the overall heat works well on jungle, as the fire is mainly for radiant heat anyway
with springy doors this can work, i would suggest putting all the walls flat, you cnat even click on door properly sideways, also adobe has more surface to it for paint

we should do an experiment on s2 or some other server where we can go back a few times

Last edited by pein (2019-04-14 05:47:10)

Tarr · 2019-04-13 17:37:14

DestinyCall wrote:

...

Not a huge fan of the idea of using two fires for a baby but I know that was just a point on how you can produce perfect temperature without building actual buildings. The fact that babies have the ability to regulate their own temperature by wobbling back and forth on a fire means any sort of temperature adventure is moot for them. However, the building does give the mother extra warmth if she is going to be a helicopter mom and just stare at the babies in the middle of the fire.

And yeah, buildings are absolutely death traps with jungle buildings being no exception. Instead of the classic locking of the doors someone ripping the door off the hinges would crank the temperature up to the point where everyone would be considered naked in a cold neutral until the door was put back down and shut. This of course ignores all the normal ways of griefing a building like busting walls, blocking doors, or locking doors. Having fooled around a bit more with buildings in general today made me realize that doors need to be much harder to just pull up otherwise even with lock removal people will eventually just start stealing doors (again.)

Once again I come to the same conclusion I came to week one after fooling with buildings. They're just not usable and really do require some sort of buff. Cold neutral buildings basically do nothing without a fire meaning each one needs a fire to be useful and that's only useful if its a correctly sized building while hot neutral basically becomes an oven should a door be opened up. Complex building designs just aren't worth the time or effort put into them.

pein wrote:

...

Heated buildings/sheep pens are definitely a superior upgrade over their normal counterparts but they can't use any sort of planted items to block the animals due to not being able to grow on floored tiles. The only real issue I could see if having to go outside to dump bones but the advantage of having all your animals in a heated area seems worth it even with that flaw. I would have used a horizontal door for my other bakery picture but I didn't want to run off the people I was trying to sell the concept on.

One way doors would certainly be great with springy doors for directing traffic through a busy big building but for normal stuff like a sheep pen I feel like it ends up being a waste of time.

TL;DR: Even the best passive building is terrible.

futurebird · 2019-04-13 18:05:46

Will sugarcane keep you warm?

futurebird · 2019-04-13 18:07:20

If sugarcane helps with warmth I like the idea of using it for the smith that way you can quickly remove any wall that blocking up the work space and it looks nice.

DestinyCall · 2019-04-13 19:20:32

futurebird wrote:

Will sugarcane keep you warm?

I assume that it does not. But I have not tested in-game. I suggested sugarcane walls as a better choice for defining spaces. I have already given up on using buildings to keep proper temp. The current heating mechanic is just too limited and broken. The optimally heated space is too small, heat spreads unevenly, leaving the door open breaks the room, but closing the door breaks pathing, and every heated room must have its own fire while in use (in cold biome). It is a big waste of time.

However, if an enclosed airspace is calculated based on blocked movement, that opens up all kinds of possibilities for better buildings. And by better buildings, I mean crazy "buildings" made out of graves, ponds, and oven bases, obviously. I suspect that the main issue with using non-walls for walls is that you must put flooring under the tile to gain the max room bonus. Open floors are bad. So that would suggest that natural objects (ponds, reeds, sugarcane) won't work. But blocking items, like oven bases or wooden boxes MIGHT work if you floor the tile before crafting the item.. Has anyone tested this?

Personally, I like to use doors. Doors everywhere. Not just one door per wall. The doors ARE the walls. The corners can be made from stone, but everything else is just a lot of doors. You can't trap me in a building made entirely from doors! Muhahahahaa!

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-04-13 19:37:48)

Booklat1 · 2019-04-14 04:25:01

sometimes i wish tarr was the one developing ohol

pein · 2019-04-14 05:55:45

yeah i suggested before, and thinking about it logically:
a wall is just blocks
pine wall vs pine door: pine wall placed incorrectly, and you need to make kindling out of the wall. while the door can be cut and replaced
a door is a fully functional wall when closed
having multiple doors just helps on navigation, especially if it's placed on EW stakes. also makes the whole building portable
with the extra lasso bug i hoped i could live a life making pine doors and moving base as we go find new place to live and scavenge more lasso but was patched fast

Tarr · 2019-04-14 06:48:29

pein wrote:

yeah i suggested before, and thinking about it logically:
a wall is just blocks
pine wall vs pine door: pine wall placed incorrectly, and you need to make kindling out of the wall. while the door can be cut and replaced
a door is a fully functional wall when closed
having multiple doors just helps on navigation, especially if it's placed on EW stakes. also makes the whole building portable
with the extra lasso bug i hoped i could live a life making pine doors and moving base as we go find new place to live and scavenge more lasso but was patched fast

Yeah, doors definitely make better walls since if someone messes it up it can easily be fixed. I think from a design point you should do north side/south side doors to rooms to prevent people from fixing horizontal doors for rooms that are east/west of the main area.

I think the biggest thing I realize from all this testing is how could normal buildings could have been. Having hallways or a central road throughout your building seems viable with how little it will end up increasing your temperature by having roads inside vs doing boards. Also bear flooring is incredibly useful for jungle buildings as it ends up bringing the natural heat down to about full nondecaying clothing two tiles away from a fire which is pretty damn good imo.

original post has been updated to show the difference between flooring in a jungle building.

Psykout · 2019-04-14 08:58:57

From reading through all of this it has become very apparent that buildings are struggling for identity.

On an organizational point, they have strengths if they are designed well to suit their purpose. The downside is that if they see any overlfow they are confined and it breaks the system. This is why one side of the fence says they just take of room you could use.

On the functional side, the constraints of getting optimal value requires a significant effort or planning. The building has to be this size with a fire this many tiles away. Other choice is to build in an uncommon terrain dealing with the mosquitos and heat until you are done.

My thoughts are to either make buildings more temperature friendly, or cheapen their cost heavily.

If they end up being treated purely for aesthetics or organization, let them go up faster or able to be sized whatever the architect decides. Get rid of half adobe walls and one adobe is a wall. Add another resource to plaster to balance it out. Make a way to get two walls out of a single rock. Froe and mallet on a log is a big stack of boards not a single stack.

If made more functional, better heat without fire. A plaster walled, wood floored room is a decent shelter by most survival standards. With any heat source you are optimal temp; fire, oven, kiln, etc. When in an enclosed room clothes bonus is negligible. If there is a fire in the room, or at least farther than a few squares, naked or not both at the same temp. Out in the wilderness, clothed versus naked is a big difference. Sitting around a fire indoors not as big of a difference.

Tarr · 2019-04-14 10:13:20

Still playing around with the jungle building and what not. Each life it gets a little bigger thanks to the help of people who come around the place.

Psykout wrote:

From reading through all of this it has become very apparent that buildings are struggling for identity.
On an organizational point, they have strengths if they are designed well to suit their purpose. The downside is that if they see any overlfow they are confined and it breaks the system. This is why one side of the fence says they just take of room you could use.
On the functional side, the constraints of getting optimal value requires a significant effort or planning. The building has to be this size with a fire this many tiles away. Other choice is to build in an uncommon terrain dealing with the mosquitos and heat until you are done.
My thoughts are to either make buildings more temperature friendly, or cheapen their cost heavily.
If they end up being treated purely for aesthetics or organization, let them go up faster or able to be sized whatever the architect decides. Get rid of half adobe walls and one adobe is a wall. Add another resource to plaster to balance it out. Make a way to get two walls out of a single rock. Froe and mallet on a log is a big stack of boards not a single stack.
If made more functional, better heat without fire. A plaster walled, wood floored room is a decent shelter by most survival standards. With any heat source you are optimal temp; fire, oven, kiln, etc. When in an enclosed room clothes bonus is negligible. If there is a fire in the room, or at least farther than a few squares, naked or not both at the same temp. Out in the wilderness, clothed versus naked is a big difference. Sitting around a fire indoors not as big of a difference.

I think this hits the nail right on the head. If you (Jason) want buildings to just be decorations we throw up to help organize ourselves on where what goes in a village making them cheaper would make more buildings appear, however these buildings would just be cosmetic. Not too much different than choosing to pick a blue hat instead of just picking a red or green hat. Cheap buildings allow players to put them up easier but they'll never be anything more than something you make because you're bored. This is what normal neutral biome buildings are essentially.

If you would rather buildings be put up because you want people to use them for actual shelter then they need to be closer to what hot biomes (the jungle) buildings are. All of these rooms are built in mind with the temperature grid to prevent accidentally producing a room too hot to properly use and thus, anyone in these rooms are going to be benefiting from being inside either naked or dressed. Unlike their cold cousins, the jungle buildings actually do something for having them put up. Instead of the magic hat idea like option one, this option gives people a reason to build buildings in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, buildings are deathtraps in one sense or another but this little project has been fun.

breezeknight · 2019-04-14 10:15:40

Tarr wrote:

a fine example of bad bakery space design

it might be enough functionality for a single player
but it's the overkill of dysfunctionality in a chaotic multiplayer, OHOL

an oven or kiln put directly under a wall makes it inaccessible from above
put near a corner makes the working space unnecessarily crowded, while the whole space remains empty

then two doors from side but not accessible from above & under
again, in a single player it might be enough
but in a busy town it's just a time waster
if you want to make this even more dysfunctional, surround that building with fast roads, no stop gaps on doors, lol

& then the nice looking idea of a fire "room"
i see immediately some mothers trying desparately to fit with their kids to that tiny room

why ? just why so little focus on the actual functionality of a bakery in a multiplayer game ?

what's the use of yum or warmth if the spaces are dysfunctional, stealing the limited in game time & making the production flow stuck ?

bad working space design

- - -

Last edited by breezeknight (2019-04-14 10:17:03)

Spoonwood · 2019-04-14 12:37:47

Tarr wrote:

I think this hits the nail right on the head. If you (Jason) want buildings to just be decorations we throw up to help organize ourselves on where what goes in a village making them cheaper would make more buildings appear, however these buildings would just be cosmetic. Not too much different than choosing to pick a blue hat instead of just picking a red or green hat. Cheap buildings allow players to put them up easier but they'll never be anything more than something you make because you're bored. This is what normal neutral biome buildings are essentially.
If you would rather buildings be put up because you want people to use them for actual shelter then they need to be closer to what hot biomes (the jungle) buildings are. All of these rooms are built in mind with the temperature grid to prevent accidentally producing a room too hot to properly use and thus, anyone in these rooms are going to be benefiting from being inside either naked or dressed. Unlike their cold cousins, the jungle buildings actually do something for having them put up. Instead of the magic hat idea like option one, this option gives people a reason to build buildings in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, buildings are deathtraps in one sense or another but this little project has been fun.

I'm going to point out here that none of these buildings feature a kiln or forge, and I hope that's intentional. For a good forge with proper supplies you want at least two (I've always done three in low pop play, but haven't build a third kiln on the bigserver) kilns. Maybe vertically adjacent kilns can work if you're smart, but with horizontally adjacent kilns as seems conventional, and *at least* one space in between them (two I'm inclined to think works better) with multipurpose newcomen engine also, that's already 5 spaces horizontally. In Tarr's 6x5 bakery, that would render the left kiln (the engine should go to the right of the rightmost kiln) to the point of it just becoming for charcoal firing or just some plates and bowls also, since you can only use one side to place wet bowls and plates or crucibles. That's before consider all of the tools a good, later-game forge will have.

To try make a list of those tools, that includes at least one if not more kindling piles (could be outside, I suppose, but have to open the door to move that kindling then), adobe for each kilns, a round stone for hitting iron, two hammers (one can break while in the middle of say making a shovel head, and though there's some visual indication of a smithing hammer, it's kind of small), space for charcoal, space for plates and bowls, space for tongs... possibly two since you might get good help or be the helper, space for flat rocks, something to chop up branches, space for a basket, space for iron that hasn't had any processing, space for wrought iron once hit, space for steel, space above and below the multipurpose newcomen engine for piston blanks, pulleys, steel rods, steel pipes, etc. I've probably forgotten something.

breezeknight wrote:

it might be enough functionality for a single player

I think for a single player/low pop bakery the size of the bakery building could work and still work as rather efficient. You could just make a bunch of sledges (baskets decay too quickly to feel worth it) and cook from the sledges.

For a forge though I do NOT think it would work out as efficient even in low pop.

Tarr · 2019-04-14 14:23:26

Spoonwood wrote:

I'm going to point out here that none of these buildings feature a kiln or forge, and I hope that's intentional. For a good forge with proper supplies you want at least two (I've always done three in low pop play, but haven't build a third kiln on the bigserver) kilns. Maybe vertically adjacent kilns can work if you're smart, but with horizontally adjacent kilns as seems conventional, and *at least* one space in between them (two I'm inclined to think works better) with multipurpose newcomen engine also, that's already 5 spaces horizontally. In Tarr's 6x5 bakery, that would render the left kiln (the engine should go to the right of the rightmost kiln) to the point of it just becoming for charcoal firing or just some plates and bowls also, since you can only use one side to place wet bowls and plates or crucibles. That's before consider all of the tools a good, later-game forge will have.
To try make a list of those tools, that includes at least one if not more kindling piles (could be outside, I suppose, but have to open the door to move that kindling then), adobe for each kilns, a round stone for hitting iron, two hammers (one can break while in the middle of say making a shovel head, and though there's some visual indication of a smithing hammer, it's kind of small), space for charcoal, space for plates and bowls, space for tongs... possibly two since you might get good help or be the helper, space for flat rocks, something to chop up branches, space for a basket, space for iron that hasn't had any processing, space for wrought iron once hit, space for steel, space above and below the multipurpose newcomen engine for piston blanks, pulleys, steel rods, steel pipes, etc. I've probably forgotten something.

Yeah I'm not sure an 8x8 is too efficient for most high tech smithing. You can definitely however make an efficient forge room/pottery room in the rooms without too much overall hassle. I think you either devote "two" rooms to doing high level smithing at worse with something like a working forge + newcomen at the top side of the room and something like its charcoal producers/cisterns along the bottom side of the room.

Obviously the building I've been working on isn't 100% efficient as it's more of a fun little project while I work out the kinks. I really like the thought of having hallways between certain rooms as posted in the image since it makes the building less of a giant blob. One of the biggest issues I've been running into is that you basically need all springy doors otherwise players will just leave the door open and roast you and themselves.

Psykout · 2019-04-14 19:24:06

breezeknight wrote:

a fine example of bad bakery space design
it might be enough functionality for a single player
but it's the overkill of dysfunctionality in a chaotic multiplayer, OHOL
an oven or kiln put directly under a wall makes it inaccessible from above
put near a corner makes the working space unnecessarily crowded, while the whole space remains empty
then two doors from side but not accessible from above & under
again, in a single player it might be enough
but in a busy town it's just a time waster
if you want to make this even more dysfunctional, surround that building with fast roads, no stop gaps on doors, lol
& then the nice looking idea of a fire "room"
i see immediately some mothers trying desparately to fit with their kids to that tiny room
why ? just why so little focus on the actual functionality of a bakery in a multiplayer game ?
what's the use of yum or warmth if the spaces are dysfunctional, stealing the limited in game time & making the production flow stuck ?
bad working space design
- - -

Thats part of the point. We are so constrained on what a building needs to be shaped as for warmth, that artistic and functional freedom is out the window. Buildings are rather expensive because they are attempting to be a survival element. Tarr is heavily pointing out that they are failing miserable at that goal as well, and should be addressed. Every single room is just some ticky tacky little box that has only two differences, the walls are made out of adobe, or they are made out of stone. Why people are trying to shoot holes in a proof of concept, that jungle buildings are WAY more efficient than neutral biomes, is beyond me.

breezeknight wrote:

an oven or kiln put directly under a wall makes it inaccessible from above
put near a corner makes the working space unnecessarily crowded, while the whole space remains empty

I personally don't understand this. Why is it that important to access the oven from all four sides? A crowded workspace does not always mean it can not be efficient. There does NOT have to be two people baking if you are doing it right. The below picture was one of the designs I have played with for bakery, that is not another stupid rectangle box, that also can pump out a ton of pies. There is three rows that can hold full plating, and the three column spaces on the left side can hold plates/rock/water/bowl/etc while you are making the pies. When you are going to cook, you lay down three baskets, one from each loaded box, in the space between the two lower boxes. Little right click magic on the baskets, which you don't need to move a single square to access all three, again right click to rotate cooked baskets for raw (the other reason you take one raw basket from three different boxes to speed this swap up). A single person can cook about 36 pies ALONE. If a second person were to join in, which would indeed be rather unnecessary but for sake of argument, unless they are standing in prep row, they will not block the baskets/oven/boxes anymore than you are.

If you are in a town that needs more than 36 pies cooked in a single kindling burn of an oven, you have bigger problems I can not even fathom.

Tarr wrote:

Yeah I'm not sure an 8x8 is too efficient for most high tech smithing. You can definitely however make an efficient forge room/pottery room in the rooms without too much overall hassle. I think you either devote "two" rooms to doing high level smithing at worse with something like a working forge + newcomen at the top side of the room and something like its charcoal producers/cisterns along the bottom side of the room.
Obviously the building I've been working on isn't 100% efficient as it's more of a fun little project while I work out the kinks. I really like the thought of having hallways between certain rooms as posted in the image since it makes the building less of a giant blob. One of the biggest issues I've been running into is that you basically need all springy doors otherwise players will just leave the door open and roast you and themselves.

One, if buildings ended up being cheap, having a room just for pottery would not be a stab-able offense. You could end up with a room adjacent to another, that one is the regular smith, and one does newcommen and lathe stuff. Also very much yes on the hallways, there really is a lot that can be done with the building mechanics already in place, throne room hallway that is like six tiles wide with stone corner walls as pillars going down it, hell yes. We essentially can build castles that would look like Legend of Zelda, but don't because it takes enough resources to simply make an 8x8 room. As to the springy doors, honestly I just wish all doors worked like that and didn't need tech. People are more likely to close a door on someone walking right behind them IRL than they are to leave it open. Closing a door when walking through it is a basic reflex, and in game its such a tedious step.

P.S* In the bakery above I would not attempt to store food or have a fire inside of it. In a live environment I would maybe put boxes along the walls on the outside to store the food after it was cooked. Too much traffic in a workplace is super annoying, people are usually pretty good about staying out a smiths way, same should go for a baker. Lot of times people feel like they need to "help" when you start an oven, and that is not always true. Idealistically in a large town that is producing almost all the food available, a mess hall food storage room would be great. Signage and everything to denote all the different pies, crocks of stew and broth. But alas, settlements don't last long enough for this or are too disorganized for it. The game of telephone that is OHOL is a heck of a hurdle for ambitions such as this.

Last edited by Psykout (2019-04-14 19:33:21)

Spoonwood · 2019-04-14 21:46:30

Psykout wrote:

Why people are trying to shoot holes in a proof of concept, that jungle buildings are WAY more efficient than neutral biomes, is beyond me.

For the record in the discord like a week or two ago Tarr was saying something like "buildings are useless". I responded by saying that buildings in jungles were good. Even if you can move to a jungle though (seting up there is not something Tarr argued for), spacing ends up an issue. There's also things like all the wood flooring you need for a proper building. It's not so much the time and/or iron cost. It's more though that with all those butt logs you could have made wooden shoes for the whole village easily in a life, probably even if you were rather new at the game, as it's simple and quick.. if you have the butt logs close. Those butt logs won't end up so close with people doing that wooden flooring. The benefit of wooden shoes comes as clear and immediate. That doesn't hold with wood flooring for buildings or building projects.

Psykout wrote:

You could end up with a room adjacent to another, that one is the regular smith, and one does newcommen and lathe stuff.

I just don't like that idea. It's good for using the bore, lathe, or drill (which really could use more uses, since it's only one thing at present, so it ends up running without use). But, for the hammer or the roller, I don't. To review, the kiln runs for 30 seconds. The newcomen engine machines for 20 seconds. So, when using the bore or hammer it's possible (and I've done it) to get like 2 or 3 crucibles fired after the hammer or roller burns out by yourself. So, with a separate room and forge for the engine, either you just "eat" the effect of the kiln burning with you not trying to use the charcoal as much as you can, or you have more flat rocks in that room with iron and a round stone, or transport crucibles or something. So either you transport things to the second room or you have more resources before you set up to use those engines. And if you have that iron or steel, where are you going to further process it? Probably back in the dedicated blacksmithing room. But, that's opening the door and transporting stuff. No need for that with an open area forging area. Just regular smithing organization.

Oh... come to think of it... I've processed stuff using a second room dedicated room for the newcomen multpurpose engine on server12. It was not my town. As I've tried to say, it's not my preferred set up, and I don't see how the second room ends up that advantageous. Then again, it might be less food, but with a good clothing set and since you're moving to the fire anyways, I'm not sure how large the pip drain rate is for someone open air forging vs. someone working in a jungle. Those numbers would be interesting, but I would think it difficult to compute.

Tarr · 2019-04-14 23:32:09

Spoonwood wrote:

For the record in the discord like a week or two ago Tarr was saying something like "buildings are useless". I responded by saying that buildings in jungles were good. Even if you can move to a jungle though (seting up there is not something Tarr argued for), spacing ends up an issue. There's also things like all the wood flooring you need for a proper building. It's not so much the time and/or iron cost. It's more though that with all those butt logs you could have made wooden shoes for the whole village easily in a life, probably even if you were rather new at the game, as it's simple and quick.. if you have the butt logs close. Those butt logs won't end up so close with people doing that wooden flooring. The benefit of wooden shoes comes as clear and immediate. That doesn't hold with wood flooring for buildings or building projects.

The only reason I credited Yaira for the idea instead of you is because they did a LOT of testing with jungle buildings during the first or so week of the temperature overhaul. In relation to just making wooden clogs I turned any of my cracked mallets into shoes instantly to prevent butt log waste. I still think it's better to just hunt like 10 rabbits or so to give everyone shoes since they're both cheaper and better overall. Also, just like a swamp the jungle is absolutely loaded (at times) with rubber trees you can use for butt logs without feeling too guilty as you only need a few rubber trees anyways.

Cold neutral buildings are basically useless in the current system as not having them is pretty much the same as having them, just now you've got a space issue because you popped walls up.

Spoonwood wrote:

I just don't like that idea. It's good for using the bore, lathe, or drill (which really could use more uses, since it's only one thing at present, so it ends up running without use). But, for the hammer or the roller, I don't. To review, the kiln runs for 30 seconds. The newcomen engine machines for 20 seconds. So, when using the bore or hammer it's possible (and I've done it) to get like 2 or 3 crucibles fired after the hammer or roller burns out by yourself. So, with a separate room and forge for the engine, either you just "eat" the effect of the kiln burning with you not trying to use the charcoal as much as you can, or you have more flat rocks in that room with iron and a round stone, or transport crucibles or something. So either you transport things to the second room or you have more resources before you set up to use those engines. And if you have that iron or steel, where are you going to further process it? Probably back in the dedicated blacksmithing room. But, that's opening the door and transporting stuff. No need for that with an open area forging area. Just regular smithing organization.
Oh... come to think of it... I've processed stuff using a second room dedicated room for the newcomen multpurpose engine on server12. It was not my town. As I've tried to say, it's not my preferred set up, and I don't see how the second room ends up that advantageous. Then again, it might be less food, but with a good clothing set and since you're moving to the fire anyways, I'm not sure how large the pip drain rate is for someone open air forging vs. someone working in a jungle. Those numbers would be interesting, but I would think it difficult to compute.

The second room idea is fine in my opinion. As long as you either have a fire pit room somewhere close enough to them you shouldn't have to fret too much. Either have the main forge room have a charcoal area or devote the bottom of the newcomen room to charcoal production + cisterns to run the thing. Most things can be properly stored without it being the biggest of deals since an 8x8 (or two) should be more than enough to handle general smithing/pottery/newcomen stuff.

The idea isn't you are running back and forth between two rooms to use a forge but that you just move the steel over from once side to the other whenever you are ready to start doing newcomen stuff. I'm sure once a room is set up it'll make much more sense than trying to explain what it could potentially end up looking like.

Spoonwood · 2019-04-15 00:15:55

Tarr wrote:

The only reason I credited Yaira for the idea instead of you is because they did a LOT of testing with jungle buildings during the first or so week of the temperature overhaul.

I had read Yaira's post. I didn't know if things had changed when snowmen foundations would melt. Frost on server12 built flooring in his/her bakery after the temperature overhaul, and I checked it out one time. I think I checked out nude in the jungle, and clothed in neutral, but I'm not entirely sure on my clothing set as I haven't been consistent with that, other than having a part for every body part post sheep. I might have had the most insulating clothing set on, I don't recall. I do think that Yaira deserves the credit, but thanks for the thought anyways.

Tarr wrote:

I still think it's better to just hunt like 10 rabbits or so to give everyone shoes since they're both cheaper and better overall.

I think it depends on how far rabbits lie away. If you're right next to a prairie, maybe. If not, probably not. I did the whole thing bringing butt logs with a rubber cart that we had and tried to get my child in on the whole shoemaking project in my last life and it seemed like my child had some interest in doing that as she didn't walk away and made some. Could work until the adze breaks. It's seven shoes which is three and a half people up to seven one foot person before a sheep needs fed. Then the beast has to grow up or regrow it's wool. Clogs take less time to get more people outfitted, but don't provide any meat and aren't as insulating.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-04-15 00:38:30)

Tarr · 2019-04-15 02:01:03

Spoonwood wrote:

I think it depends on how far rabbits lie away. If you're right next to a prairie, maybe. If not, probably not. I did the whole thing bringing butt logs with a rubber cart that we had and tried to get my child in on the whole shoemaking project in my last life and it seemed like my child had some interest in doing that as she didn't walk away and made some. Could work until the adze breaks. It's seven shoes which is three and a half people up to seven one foot person before a sheep needs fed. Then the beast has to grow up or regrow it's wool. Clogs take less time to get more people outfitted, but don't provide any meat and aren't as insulating.

I think clogs vs rabbits just has a lot of different variables based on which you should do one or the other. Rabbit shoes are much easier for a child to mass produce since you can actively carry up to seven rabbits around from area to area. Snares are easily contained in either a basket or backpack to move around and generally speaking there should almost always be rabbit holes to go collect from. To effectively make clogs you'll need to find an area with trees, bring over the axe, bring over the adze, then proceed to move the clogs back to the people in BP + basket.

Each rabbit takes a total of 25 seconds to catch or longer depending on if the stupid bunny gets stuck in one of its transitions which means with few snares mass producing shoes is going to be a slow task. With a few snares this greatly increases the amount of bunnies you can produce meaning quicker clothing, more shoes, and more meat.

Basically, make clogs if there are a bunch of useless tree types around camp and out of nearly broken mallets. Make rabbit shoes if you've got sheep and the rabbit field is either large enough or close enough to not be a waste of time to collect from.

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