The Architect's Hat

Dodge · 2019-04-04 05:19:51

How about making actual houses that you can enter in (loads a separate part of the map)

1. Helps solve the issue of clutter

2. You cant see what's in it unless you go in it and you could lock the house (personnal property, each family could have their house)

3. You can have private conversations and make plans without everyone seeing what you say if they use zoom

4. Doesn't require building rights or some magical hat

Last edited by Dodge (2019-04-04 05:20:22)

MultiLife · 2019-04-04 05:42:16

Having no decay inside buildings could inspire me to build large buildings for storage and shelter. And silos would be awesome.
And easier resources for buildings. It's a pain in the butt to get large stones... and flat stones. So much running back and forth...

But yeah no for hat, causes a weird strategy to emerge and building without a hat would feel useless and punishing.
I'd rather have people build up strength through their lives so building becomes faster as they become adults. They could carry heavy things and move faster as they carry them, or carry more things (stacked building materials needed for this? Carrying stacked flat stones?).

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-04-04 05:49:18)

Tea · 2019-04-04 05:45:03

Does it has to be a magic hat ? Can't it be a special tool, like a slightly bigger hammer & usable by everyone, to be able to built houses ? Or like a tool that marks a certain area where a house can be build ?

Maybe only the town eldest can use it at 40 or 50 and can plan where one can built their house ?

I like Dodge idea that you can't read the conversation others when they are in their house. Would be a shame not be able to see the insight of the house since it would be interesting to see the different designs of every player.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-04 05:49:55

The "second layer" houses is an interesting idea, and something that I haven't ever thought of before. Like each house is a secret cave that you can invite people into, but it only takes up one tile on the map (or however it looks on the map). But maybe 10x10 on an invisible "second level map" that you can only see when you're in the house.

I'm still trying to make it work on the actual map, before I go down such an extreme route.

I'm currently leaning toward elders (50+) being the ones who control/bless planning and building efforts. They can't build stuff themselves (too weak to lift heavy building materials), but they are the only ones who can plant the stakes. So an elder and a young person would build together. The elder would then die, and the young person would then reap the benefit of the well-planned building for the rest of their life, and pass the building on to their offspring.

There are certainly plenty of reasons to build walls in this game. The reasons just aren't big enough to motivate the costs of the walls. I don't need to give you more reasons to build walls for shelter. We build walls in real life for a lot more reasons than just shelter. There are outdoor walls all over my city. There's a fence around my yard. There's a barbed wire fence behind almost every industrial building in town. Every garden has a fence.

There are 30 houses on my block, and more than 30 fences to go with them (some have fences in both front and back). People park their bikes behind their fences. They plant their fruit trees behind their fences.

Many fruit trees that grow near the sidewalk have signs on them: "Please do not pick the fruit"

Since the tree is not behind a fence, it's not obvious enough that the tree is private property. But if your tree is behind a fence, you don't need a sign.

Heck, even the graveyard in town has a wall around it.

It's astounding to me that people don't see the potential benefits to control over resources that would come from private property. Throughout the history of the game, the biggest complaint has been about "leech" players who waste food, lose tools, drain the well, plant the wrong thing, pick all the seeding carrots, take milkweed without replanting, drive off with the car, etc. The other big complaint is about griefers who do all of these things on purpose.

Can you not imagine why someone would want to wall their milkweed farm, and keep the necessary tools for tending it in there?

Good fences make good neighbors. Good barbed wire keeps out the griefers.

If I have a specific plan for these tools and these resources, I'd better lock them up. How many times have I had all my ducks in a row for some in-game project, only to return to find some of my precious and hard-won ingredients missing?

But with things as they stand, it would take me a whole lifetime (or more) to build a proper lockup. I'd be dead before I actually even got to start on the real project that the lockup would enable.

What if "well-planned wall" was a fundamental atom of the game? What if "locked" was fundamental nature of pretty much every well-planned door that was built?

There are very few unlocked doors in my city... if you see a door, the safe assumption is that it is locked, and that you can't pass through it. And sheesh, there are a lot of doors around. Doors are like one of the main things we interact with in my city on a daily basis. We open and close doors all day long.

MultiLife · 2019-04-04 05:58:44

It kinda sounds like a forced responsibility for elders.

Hit 50? Start building old man, that's your primary function now. You're a douche if you don't use your last 10 minutes to do this one thing you're granted to do.

What if I want to just chill those last moments? Someone would certainly be disappointed if I waste my last minutes like that while having a 'superpower' active...

Last edited by MultiLife (2019-04-04 05:59:55)

Tea · 2019-04-04 06:04:11

But couldn't anyone come with a lock and lock me in or out of my own house right now in the game ?

I would love to lock my house so nobody can steal my pads or pies I just baked but if some player comes around and puts a lock on my door and runs away with the key, what then ? How could my kids enter their home and get the cooked pies ?

Baker · 2019-04-04 06:04:29

jasonrohrer wrote:

The "second layer" houses is an interesting idea, and something that I haven't ever thought of before. Like each house is a secret cave that you can invite people into, but it only takes up one tile on the map (or however it looks on the map). But maybe 10x10 on an invisible "second level map" that you can only see when you're in the house.
I'm still trying to make it work on the actual map, before I go down such an extreme route.

I'm currently leaning toward elders (50+) being the ones who control/bless planning and building efforts. They can't build stuff themselves (too weak to lift heavy building materials), but they are the only ones who can plant the stakes. So an elder and a young person would build together. The elder would then die, and the young person would then reap the benefit of the well-planned building for the rest of their life, and pass the building on to their offspring.

There are certainly plenty of reasons to build walls in this game. The reasons just aren't big enough to motivate the costs of the walls. I don't need to give you more reasons to build walls for shelter. We build walls in real life for a lot more reasons than just shelter. There are outdoor walls all over my city. There's a fence around my yard. There's a barbed wire fence behind almost every industrial building in town. Every garden has a fence.
There are 30 houses on my block, and more than 30 fences to go with them (some have fences in both front and back). People park their bikes behind their fences. They plant their fruit trees behind their fences.
Many fruit trees that grow near the sidewalk have signs on them: "Please do not pick the fruit"
Since the tree is not behind a fence, it's not obvious enough that the tree is private property. But if your tree is behind a fence, you don't need a sign.
Heck, even the graveyard in town has a wall around it.

It's astounding to me that people don't see the potential benefits to control over resources that would come from private property. Throughout the history of the game, the biggest complaint has been about "leech" players who waste food, lose tools, drain the well, plant the wrong thing, pick all the seeding carrots, take milkweed without replanting, drive off with the car, etc. The other big complaint is about griefers who do all of these things on purpose.
Can you not imagine why someone would want to wall their milkweed farm, and keep the necessary tools for tending it in there?
Good fences make good neighbors. Good barbed wire keeps out the griefers.
If I have a specific plan for these tools and these resources, I'd better lock them up. How many times have I had all my ducks in a row for some in-game project, only to return to find some of my precious and hard-won ingredients missing?

But with things as they stand, it would take me a whole lifetime (or more) to build a proper lockup. I'd be dead before I actually even got to start on the real project that the lockup would enable.

What if "well-planned wall" was a fundamental atom of the game? What if "locked" was fundamental nature of pretty much every well-planned door that was built?
There are very few unlocked doors in my city... if you see a door, the safe assumption is that it is locked, and that you can't pass through it. And sheesh, there are a lot of doors around. Doors are like one of the main things we interact with in my city on a daily basis. We open and close doors all day long.

No offense but I don't really want some elder telling me what to build. In ohol, The elder isn't always the more experianced.

On a side note, I don't like the idea of a cheat hat. But I do like the idea of unique recipes for people wearing certain uniforms, Like a chef hat let's you cook more efficently.

Last edited by Baker (2019-04-04 06:07:18)

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-04 06:26:57

Well, I think there needs to be easy building, but limited by consensus from someone who has some kind of community trust. I think that is the most straight-forward springboard to sane limited property access, and thus emergent property rights.

And the limit, based on community trust, is really important. Try to build a wall across 5th avenue in NYC and see what happens. Building a wall is as easy as buying a truckload of bricks and a bag of mortar. Any idiot could do it.

My two ideas for establishing "community trust" are:

1. A crown conferring power, that is passed down. Unlikely to fall into the hands of an idiot or griefer, unless Eve is a griefer, in which case, good luck. This doesn't have to be a magic hat, but could just be some tool that Eve gets, that is needed to build stuff. Maybe it's even locked to her family (to prevent cities from hunting Eves to farm extra building tools).

2. Elders, just because they've lived long enough. An elder is likely not an idiot or a griefer. Right? They also know the village better than anyone, and are the keepers of the plan. My thought here would be an "elder stone" that only elders can pick up, which is needed to pound building stakes. But building materials would be too heavy for elders. Just because you're old doesn't mean you can just build a wall across 5th avenue willy nilly.

Anyway, the idea would be that these trusted individuals would settle building and property disputes, serve as locksmiths, approve demolitions, etc.

These are both pretty janky ideas, each with their own weird side effects. I'm looking for other ideas along these lines. How can "putting up 30 walls" be easy if it's a good idea to put up 30 walls, but impossible if it's a bad idea to put up 30 walls?

That said, I'm pretty much gunning to give players SOME sane way to limit access to property. I feel like I gotta figure this one out. It's been bugging me for the entire life of the game. Walls seems like the most direct and emergent way to do this.

But there are of course other ways.

--Radius-based land acquisition, like Rust. You plant your stake on open land, and from then on, no one else can build there, and only you can open doors there. Maybe even forget walls and doors. Maybe any object there can only be touched by you. Maybe other people can't even set foot in there. But you can't plant land-ownership stakes on other people's land. Owned land is auto-passed to your children when you die, or maybe you grant them access with some phrase. If you die without offspring, it becomes common land again until someone else stakes a claim on it.

--Per-object property rights, based on who made it. There's an axe on the ground, but the owner is still living, so you can't grab it. Some mechanic for giving property from one person to another. Eco may do something more like this, though I haven't studied it in a while.

Anyway, there's just gotta be some sane way, in the game, to say:

"This is my milkweed farm. These are my plants, and these are my tools that I'm using to tend it. These are my compost piles, too. I've got plans for the resulting rope, so please don't help yourself to my milkweed stalks. If you'd like to come in and help me tend it, I might just invite you, and maybe even pay you with some rope eventually. But otherwise, stay the hell out please."

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-04 06:28:14

Tea wrote:

But couldn't anyone come with a lock and lock me in or out of my own house right now in the game ?
I would love to lock my house so nobody can steal my pads or pies I just baked but if some player comes around and puts a lock on my door and runs away with the key, what then ? How could my kids enter their home and get the cooked pies ?

Only elders could make locks. Elders could also remove locks easily.

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-04 06:35:36

Also, I'm getting the feeling that most of the people participating in this discussion have never played Rust.

That's really the starting point for any discussion about property in a multiplayer game.

It's also probably the greatest game created in the past 10 years.... maybe the greatest game ever.

breezeknight · 2019-04-04 07:01:27

before changes to who can build what can work in OHOL there has to be features in place which reward constructive behaviour
eg players have asked, me included, for a BLESSING SYSTEM

& i don't play Rust because i am not into pure survival games & also not into substitute of RL games
that's why i dislike to play RPGs
i play RTS mainly leaning towards management & town building
that's why the clutter situation in OHOL is so agreviating for me, i am unable to fix the functionality of the town because there are no tools or features in OHOL which would enable it, like craftable map & craftable zoom, stackability of everything
pickaxes breaking on one single ancient wall is the overkill atm since players build those with ease, i am starting to suspect even it's the current griefing opportunity, to build with ancient wall in a wrong way
sorry

- - -

Last edited by breezeknight (2019-04-04 07:08:26)

Whatever · 2019-04-04 07:05:24

You created a game which let people live in societies that share nearly everything.
People try to work together as good as they can to improve their village. (except for griefers)
This is awesome. You created a very unique game.
Focus on the strengths of this game, don't try to make it something which it doesn't want to be.

Grim_Arbiter · 2019-04-04 07:06:43

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, I'm getting the feeling that most of the people participating in this discussion have never played Rust.
That's really the starting point for any discussion about property in a multiplayer game.
It's also probably the greatest game created in the past 10 years.... maybe the greatest game ever.

Brendan Greene has.

*edit
ohol > rust

Last edited by Grim_Arbiter (2019-04-04 07:14:58)

breezeknight · 2019-04-04 07:11:50

Whatever wrote:

You created a game which let people live in societies that share nearly everything.
People try to work together as good as they can to improve their village. (except for griefers)
This is awesome. You created a very unique game.
Focus on the strengths of this game, don't try to make it something which it doesn't want to be.

THIS

trying to mimic Rust now will destroy what OHOL already is

so maybe the better idea would be
to analyze what does actually function in OHOL & why
what doesn't & why

- - -

Last edited by breezeknight (2019-04-04 07:12:31)

Dodge · 2019-04-04 07:19:09

I played Rust, 500+ hours and counting

But in Rust they have code locks, key locks are the first of course but having the key on you or even hidden is a constant fear of getting your base looted so rushing code lock is one of the first thing people do in game.

Since we dont have that complex electronic system at the moment it could be a mechanical code lock

And to avoid losing code and locking house forever the lock could rust after a few generations.

Regarding the second layer houses, they could use only one tile (less realistic, could look kinda cute) but they could also take multiple tiles like 4x4 for a log house for example and when you go in it you have access to a larger area like 15x15 or wathever

My reasoning is that if we ever get skyscrapers or any larger building in game at one point, a 1x1 skyscraper would look kinda ridiculous but if it takes 10x10 or more it would give a real feeling of a massive structure.

Tarr · 2019-04-04 07:20:53

I mean sure for some things in game it certainly makes sense to want to have ownership over them such as cars/planes/horse/radios/knives/etc but how chaotic is it going to be when some person decides to starts taking all the random items that make the towns wheels spin? Well we can't compost because this baby owns all the town shit and sheep so I guess we have to make a new sheep pen with new sheep. Can't make a fire because someone walking through the town decided to claim all the trees while searching for iron and passed the rights to his great nephew who has no idea he owns 300 trees in the middle of nowhere. Better yet, someone going around not collecting resources but instead claiming them and leaving them in the wilderness so no one can pick them up in the first place.

Seems like it would be better at that point to tell people to specifically not claim items and start stabbing anyone who is going against the villages best interests by claiming ownership over items as it's easier for everyone to work when they're not trying to convince their neighbor to let them use the town hoe.

Glassius · 2019-04-04 07:31:52

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm currently leaning toward elders (50+) being the ones who control/bless planning and building efforts.

But why elders? Experience is gathered trough multiple lifetimes. Not one, like IRL

jasonrohrer wrote:

It's astounding to me that people don't see the potential benefits to control over resources that would come from private property.

It's astounding me you don't see a real problems buildings are causing.
1. It benefit griefers too much. Players learned the hard way not to close building and not to attach doors, because it encourages griefer to come from nowhere and lock it for himself. Even if you lock it, unlocking it is also very fast, so your property is poorly protected. To fight it, putting lock on doors must become a long, complicated and loud process, so the real owner can react on it in tine. The same with taking lock off, players need time to react.

2. You cannot duplicate keys, so you cannot share locked building with friends or family. Every locked bulding becomes a storage or a prison, but not a home. And this is poor storage, because taking lock off is so easy and fast. Give a way to copy keys, we will have homes.

3. Even if keys are reproducable and you share it with your family members, the next time you come to the village, you may not receive keys to the your work from previous life. Therefore, every long term project you want to work trough multiple lifes, must be processed outside! If you rework spawn system not only to allow stick to lineage, but also yo be reborn as direct descendant of your kids, you can work multiple lifes on one project inside.

Regarding second layer: it may work! Make a one tile of space outside a 3x3 space inside, so it would still be beneficial to make bigger buildings. Second layer would decrease the time spend on travelling between workshops. Also, it can be a foundation for future cave, camps, public transport, massive airplanes and ships

Last edited by Glassius (2019-04-04 07:37:13)

Tarr · 2019-04-04 07:42:03

Glassius wrote:

2. You cannot duplicate keys, so you cannot share locked building with friends or family. Every locked bulding becomes a storage or a prison, but not a home. And this is poor storage, because taking lock off is so easy and fast. Give a way to copy keys, we will have homes.

https://onetech.info/928-Duplicate-Keys-10

You can very easily duplicate keys and without much effort.

Also you can just hide your keys if you're worried about someone not passing you a duplicate. I know for a fact I had a key hidden for 24+ hours right under the towns folks noses because the spot was so good.

In regards to removing locks it surely takes longer to remove a lock than it does to forge one due to needing a dummy object to lock and having to go through potentially ten different lock combinations. Putting a lock on now specifically makes a sound so anyone near the door can specifically hear when some starts locking them in the first place as a warning that someone is messing with your building.

However, the one thing I can agree on is the fact that buildings are bad lel.

Glassius · 2019-04-04 07:47:14

It's good to know. I was never taught about it, and I believe most players ingame neither. Spread this information You are right making lock is long. But locking is super fast and you almost cannot prevent it.

Regarding hidden keys: did you give a duplicate to your kids? Or made a big clutter object in town just for yourself?

Last edited by Glassius (2019-04-04 07:47:57)

Tarr · 2019-04-04 07:58:51

Glassius wrote:

It's good to know. I was never taught about it, and I believe most players ingame neither. Spread this information You are right making lock is long. But locking is super fast and you almost cannot prevent it.
Regarding hidden keys: did you give a duplicate to your kids? Or made a big clutter object in town just for yourself?

Nah, I just kept it somewhere that was near invisible and where people wouldn't look. Hidden behind a diesel well. The key sprite lines up almost perfectly with the top part of the engine sticking out of the well so unless people are actively swapping items behind a diesel well (it looks like a blocked tile anyways) no one is ever going to look there for a key.

There's other good hiding spots near/around a town but I can't give away all my secrets. I would have duplicated the key to give to someone else but it was specifically for an apocalypse endtower so I wasn't really wanting to give access out to a building like that.

breezeknight · 2019-04-04 08:01:06

Glassius wrote:

2. You cannot duplicate keys, ...
3. Even if keys are reproducable and you share it with your family members, ...

family relation is in OHOL even less worth than IRL

your kid or your mother could be your killer or griefer

in OHOL being someone's kid or mother doesn't mean a thing
every other relation is a title, has no value of any kind !!!
there is no emotional attachement involved, especially agreviated by the one hour limitation
IRL you get years, decades to get attached
IRL a new baby is good by heart spending already nine months in mothers belly, thus feels gratefully attached,
in OHOL a baby might be just an experienced & skilled griefer & killer
i've been killed by my own son already, i reared griefers & insulting jerks

- - -

breezeknight · 2019-04-04 08:10:06

what OHOL needs are tools & features empowering, encouraging & rewarding those players who work constructively
i've been asking for this since months

i made a profession suggestion months ago,
a profession system based on experience & ACTUAL work done

claiming ownership because of something unrelated to constructivity just plays into the hands of griefers

- - -

pein · 2019-04-04 09:07:08

yeah i guess we getting somewhere, read my post in trading topic, jason
quite similar to what you suggest and what are my concerns toward building and rights

i didn't play rust but i watched too many hours of it, not sure why but some streamers can be fun at it, so i know the concepts well enough

yeah i really think, action per minute and recipes completed (when it's not some dummy task to boost your score)
can determine the better players more
i don't say it should be totalitarian, like you could vote from the city veterans, or "rule" for a few years
at age 3 i can be more useful than the village elders and i already know what tools we missing or where to make the pen, and see who the other hard workers are, i also suggested quests and icons near name, doesn't have to be too competitive
cook 4 pies for apprentice cook reward
a pie icon appear near your name
for 20 you get advanced chef and for 50 a master chef
even a medium skill person can do it, it might create some competition but it's only an icon, obviously when someone has 10 icons and the 11 year old boy who says "im a hunter" with no icons, makes it clear who is the griefer

breezeknight · 2019-04-04 09:43:48

pein wrote:

yeah i guess we getting somewhere, ...

if it's only a token next to name, then those people will be probably the first targetted by killers, next to fertile females & girls

but in general i agree
don't have a much better suggestion
& i would love finally to get rewarded with something for what i am doing in game

that combined with a blessing system & the gameplay for working players will improve significantly

also probably finally there would be the end to the question "are you new ?", can't stand it anymore

- - -

Guppy · 2019-04-04 09:45:30

Really like the idea to replace the key locks with "code locks" and to make them rust after some time if not used.

Keys are very impractical and this way, they wouldnt be such a griefing tool anymore that doom a town forever

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