How did the combat become so shit

JasonZ · 2021-09-23 04:58:22

I miss just being able to stab people.

fug · 2021-09-23 05:09:03

Basically Jason figured a butter knife weapon existing was better than having a skill based combat. He decided a big he had two fix twice (both on his vacation time) was prime content and refused to budge on nerfing the sword until being shown video proof of why the sword was an absolute menace to the game.

His conclusion was that being able to click people was the problem and not zero cool down weapons (which were phased out in earlier patches) instead of the sword. 60 second cooldown weapons were fine. Sure it was annoying when noobs attacked you without thinking but damn would I rather be able to remove a problem instead of praying to god or the afk guy on the fire to fix things.

JasonZ · 2021-09-23 06:26:25

fug wrote:

Basically Jason figured a butter knife weapon existing was better than having a skill based combat. He decided a big he had two fix twice (both on his vacation time) was prime content and refused to budge on nerfing the sword until being shown video proof of why the sword was an absolute menace to the game.
His conclusion was that being able to click people was the problem and not zero cool down weapons (which were phased out in earlier patches) instead of the sword. 60 second cooldown weapons were fine. Sure it was annoying when noobs attacked you without thinking but damn would I rather be able to remove a problem instead of praying to god or the afk guy on the fire to fix things.

The old system of clicking people with cooldown was much better in hindsight. Imo the game would've been better with that plus the current curse mechanic. I know Jason's pretty much got his head in the clouds but I don't get how he thought this current system was supposed to solve any issues.

At this point i'm wondering if anyones made a clear time line of all Jasons fuck ups.

fug · 2021-09-23 21:19:12

Current system is supposed to solve issues by having a """good""" player decide to remove issues. The game assumes someone who can afk by a fire is able to play the game and deal with people are being disruptive.

Old system I would just deal with trolls and problems whenever they showed up in town. Now I just suicide as unless I've lived a 20 minute life recently, not had someone follow my leader, and prayed to Jebus I can't deal with the situation.

A strong curse system + old system would be a much better solution in my opinion as well. PVP died for the sins of the sword and Jason's lack of giving us ever a reason to ever have conflict with other families which is a huge design flaw of the game. Racial restrictions are honestly the inverse of how restrictions should play out as they encourage needing all four families or lower game population which is counterintuitive. If I ever see the game population around 30~ I know it's better to not play to make the game more playable for others which is frankly dumb as shit.

Node types should be family locked like well springs which either forces you to be charitable or forces you to need to claim the resource via force from other towns. Of course, this doesn't solve everyone playing cooperatively but at least gives value towards conflict with others.

Spoonwood · 2021-09-24 05:11:11

I think the leadership system and posse system for killing better than the older systems (all of them). You don't have the stupid killing over petty shit, or as many plain jerks who simply don't want to play a multiplayer survival game and thus end the life of other characters. Instead they tend to whine on reddit or discord or in a post like this these days about the game needing more senseless killing which shows how little they have always cared about civilization building, parenting, and multiplayer survival. When I think about it, their level of honesty seems as about as good as Mr. Rohrer's since they play a game designed for one purpose and want to go around thwarting that purpose for other people intentionally and easily.

A story I remember since the changes was some villager coming to me when I was leader saying that someone was running around with a knife trying to stab people. I was like so what? He/she can't do anything. Just ignore them. And I didn't exile that person, as all they had done was make a bunch of sounds that had stupidly distracted other players, unlike how in the old days someone innocent would have gotten killed by such a jerk. That was *not* better. It was worse, since players who didn't want to play a multiplayer survival game of civilization building and parenting would *more often* ruin it for players who wanted to play a multiplayer survival game of civilization building and parenting or make their experience worse.

I do agree with fug that removing bad apples is potentially bad with the current leadership system, but I didn't see it. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but just that I haven't seen it. And yeah, the leadership system based on genetic score has it's flaws, since genetic score is just too darn flawed in how it plays out.

Oh yea... and again, so what you miss being able to stab people JasonZ?

That has zero to do with civilization building, parenting, and multiplayer survival when stated like that at least. Stabbing would need justified, and you haven't provided any, and don't have any interest in such so far as I can tell. Go play a game where players playing supposedly have agreed to play a combative game, instead of one where people expect others to play a multiplayer survival game (meaning people are trying to get or wanting others to survive), parenting, and/or civilization building game.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2021-09-24 05:13:38)

Spoonwood · 2021-09-24 05:20:29

Oh, I also agree with fug that the curse system for the game isn't powerful enough.

I mean, Jason has talked about the game needing a "death penalty", since in the real world all penaliziation systems ultimately have that sort of backing. But, there is no real correlate for this game and never has been, since there is no permanent banning of people from the game, or permanent removal of anyone/any accounts to DonkeyTown.

And again JasonZ, if you want to just go around stabbing people and have tried to do that, then you deserve permanent removal to DonkeyTown or banishment from the game permanently. Innocent people just looking to do things constructively shouldn't fall victim to your destructive tendencies.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2021-09-24 05:21:31)

JasonZ · 2021-09-25 01:02:20

Spoonwood wrote:

Oh, I also agree with fug that the curse system for the game isn't powerful enough.
I mean, Jason has talked about the game needing a "death penalty", since in the real world all penaliziation systems ultimately have that sort of backing. But, there is no real correlate for this game and never has been, since there is no permanent banning of people from the game, or permanent removal of anyone/any accounts to DonkeyTown.
And again JasonZ, if you want to just go around stabbing people and have tried to do that, then you deserve permanent removal to DonkeyTown or banishment from the game permanently. Innocent people just looking to do things constructively shouldn't fall victim to your destructive tendencies.

You are making lot's of assumptions.

I love that you think I just want to go around killing everyone, Rather then just the troll's luring armies of bears into town. Similar to irl, The strength of democracy can also be it's weakness. It is very difficult to stab any innocents which I agree is a good thing but not at the expense of the guilty getting away with it. As it stands, Trolls have ways of circumventing the system such as luring bears.

Troll's aren't really beholden to these rules as long as they are able to grief without directly killing people.

Last edited by JasonZ (2021-09-25 01:10:32)

Coconut Fruit · 2021-09-30 09:19:32

Spoonwood wrote:

as all they had done was make a bunch of sounds that had stupidly distracted other players, unlike how in the old days someone innocent would have gotten killed by such a jerk.

In the old days many people were wearing red cross aprons to heal good people and kill bad people. It was fun. Current system is so boring. Whole game is boring, no wonder it's dying so fast.

arkajalka · 2021-09-30 14:32:43

like it how you people are still discussing about how this game could be improved when there hasnt been any update for almost a year.

Arcurus · 2021-10-02 17:32:34

arkajalka wrote:

like it how you people are still discussing about how this game could be improved when there hasnt been any update for almost a year.

Its open source, so everyone can make an update. The hard part is more to bring enough players to join...

arkajalka · 2021-10-03 06:34:52

Yap. The thing i dont get is that Jason has several people this dedicated to his game and he just gonna abadon that. Like you dont get this level of commitment that often. You should cherish it.

Arcurus · 2021-10-03 10:53:24

arkajalka wrote:

Yap. The thing i dont get is that Jason has several people this dedicated to his game and he just gonna abadon that. Like you dont get this level of commitment that often. You should cherish it.

The last thing I heard from Jason was the he still wants to continue with updating OHOL after his house stuff is done...
But better ask him yourself...

oof · 2021-10-11 14:07:33

I just hope the game gets better, I don't have much time in the game but I want to learn and have tons of fun with the game.

Hopefully, Jason gets everything figured out and can start updating again maybe removing some of the bad systems and features to replace them with better ones.

jasonrohrer · 2021-10-28 22:42:55

Problem with the old system was that there were certain individuals who were running around killing HUNDREDS of people. That made the game really bad for those victims.

If combat is "skilled" then who is going to get really good a combat? Griefers or bad guys? Obviously griefers, who are killing hundreds, will get the most practice, and be motivated to kill undetected, pick people off on the outskirts of town and run away, etc.

Killing is in the game for a reason---there has to be SOME way to remove troublesome people from your village. But there have to be strict systems around who can do the killing and when it can happen, or else those same troublesome people will use killing themselves to cause even more trouble.

Killing is actually a really big deal in this game. It completely ruins someone else's game. They're in the middle of building this house or whatever, and they have 30 minutes left to work on it, and then BAM, they get killed for no reason. In-progress project lost. It really is the worst experience imaginable.

So if you're going to ruin someone else's game like this, it really has to be justified and well-thought-out.

Spoonwood · 2021-10-28 22:51:51

jasonrohrer wrote:

If combat is "skilled" then who is going to get really good a combat? Griefers or bad guys?

Uh... griefers are bad guys, as implied by a later paragraph.

That would have been more convincing if it said "griefers or good guys?".

Coconut Fruit · 2021-10-28 23:52:15

I'm really sad you feel it this way Jason.

Old system gave us so many fun interactions
Yeah, maybe I died unfairly once or twice, but I didn't feel bad at all about it, not sure why you think it's so terrible experience... It's not. And it's a rare thing (I played a lot, am I lucky that I died so few times unfairly?)

Towns always had healers and tons of wool pads, good people could survive wounds in most cases, if good people died that means they didn't care enough about their protection.

I miss the old system where everyone could instant stab anyone
And I'm saying it as a person who was almost never killing people, and never without a good reason.

Spoonwood · 2021-10-29 00:27:32

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Towns always had healers and tons of wool pads, good people could survive wounds in most cases, if good people died that means they didn't care enough about their protection.

Assuming things were as good as you say, and I don't agree on that, but again assuming such, what could players do pre-sheep? It's significantly easier to make deadly weapons than to get a functioning wool production system in OHOL. Think about the tools needed to make pads, in comparison to the tools needed to make deadly weapons.

As an example, imagine the following: Born gen 3 or gen 4. Some ******* shoots or stabs you when you're 10 and you're planning the first town nursery. No sheep exist on the server even, as it was an arc reset. And if you think something like that couldn't happen... well there was that one person during a server restart (wasn't a wipe, I think) who got an Eve spawn and didn't feed a single child the whole time and just went around trying to mess up other people's towns according to Tarr.

Edit: It was Eve Revenaugh, and MrGold also observed their bad behavior: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9563

Last edited by Spoonwood (2021-10-29 01:06:28)

Coconut Fruit · 2021-10-29 02:09:47

Things like this did happen and there is nothing bad in it. And that's not the only way to get killed...
Sometimes moms abandoned their kids because there was not enough food to feed everyone
I loved it, even if it was sometimes me who was abandoned.

Arcurus · 2021-11-02 10:22:01

Coconut Fruit wrote:

I'm really sad you feel it this way Jason.
Old system gave us so many fun interactions
Yeah, maybe I died unfairly once or twice, but I didn't feel bad at all about it, not sure why you think it's so terrible experience... It's not. And it's a rare thing (I played a lot, am I lucky that I died so few times unfairly?)
Towns always had healers and tons of wool pads, good people could survive wounds in most cases, if good people died that means they didn't care enough about their protection.
I miss the old system where everyone could instant stab anyone
And I'm saying it as a person who was almost never killing people, and never without a good reason.

+100

Problems really started to come when posse became far too powerful. Of course also the war sword before it was nerfed...

@jason please make something like Saturnalia Saturdays to test out how the game is without that much restrictions around combat.

Spoonwood · 2021-11-02 13:01:47

Arcurus wrote:

Problems really started to come when posse became far too powerful. Of course also the war sword before it was nerfed...
@jason please make something like Saturnalia Saturdays to test out how the game is without that much restrictions around combat.

It's rather strange that you've mentioned that the war sword period while also calling for testing of the game without much restrictions around combat. One would think that such a period was already a test. And the periods before that. Originally there wasn't even players bleeding out, and no pads. Players got stabbed or shot and it was instant death. There was plenty of killing over petty things that didn't warrant it. And destructive players were empowered to kill, because it was so easy for them to kill, even with the dodge mechanics existing. They aren't so empowered to do so anymore. New griefers can figure out weapons. Them figuring out how to kill now is another story.

You seem to want more experiments when tests over and over again before came up negative.

When negative results get obtained on an experiment and that experiment gets replicated over and over again, why would one do testing with the same conditions and expect positive results? Good scientists, ceteris paribus, take into account negative or dis-confirming results from experiments. They don't run more experiments to prove the results of negative experiments wrong and insist that there must exist something positive when the evidence said otherwise. Doing such is more like dogmatism than anything else.

Spoonwood · 2021-11-02 16:06:29

Coconut Fruit wrote:

I'm really sad you feel it this way Jason.

He ends by saying:

jasonrohrer wrote:

So if you're going to ruin someone else's game like this, it really has to be justified and well-thought-out.

You're sad that killing has to be justified and well thought out? That killing comes with responsibility instead of just being shrugged off? That murder would be a big deal?

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Yeah, maybe I died unfairly once or twice, but I didn't feel bad at all about it, not sure why you think it's so terrible experience

A while back Jason made a change (I'm not defending that change, just referring to what got written) with notes that start as follows:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Life has been cheap in the game for a very long time. It always bugged me.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6891

Also if your character gets murdered and there's nothing bad in it, what value did that life have to you? There was nothing bad, so you didn't lose anything, one would think.

Jason talks about an individual getting killed and how it makes it impossible for them to complete their project, and how that can be a big deal for someone invested in that project. But also, if one wants to care for one's children, and then gets murdered, what of the children? What happens to them? And how is someone who wanted to care for others, but now can't due to murder, not a bad thing? Wouldn't it at least be unfortunate when/if those who want to care for others in the real world can't actually do so, because of criminals?

pein · 2022-03-13 03:52:09

jasonrohrer wrote:

Problem with the old system was that there were certain individuals who were running around killing HUNDREDS of people. That made the game really bad for those victims.
If combat is "skilled" then who is going to get really good a combat? Griefers or bad guys? Obviously griefers, who are killing hundreds, will get the most practice, and be motivated to kill undetected, pick people off on the outskirts of town and run away, etc.
Killing is in the game for a reason---there has to be SOME way to remove troublesome people from your village. But there have to be strict systems around who can do the killing and when it can happen, or else those same troublesome people will use killing themselves to cause even more trouble.
Killing is actually a really big deal in this game. It completely ruins someone else's game. They're in the middle of building this house or whatever, and they have 30 minutes left to work on it, and then BAM, they get killed for no reason. In-progress project lost. It really is the worst experience imaginable.
So if you're going to ruin someone else's game like this, it really has to be justified and well-thought-out.

true but also not true
people need a chance to defend themselves, irl there are systems set up for this, proof, judges, they are all controlled to not become corrupt or bureaucratic. somebody objective. in a game the system should be perfect. players are not perfect. games are not made to be perfect. gamers are not mentally ill or anything, I don't think they are like that in real life, but in games they roleplay, they don't limit themselves and they aren't afraid of others.
they just want to have fun, they won't take seriously the warnings or philosophies. especially in a 60 minute game you can't force or be forced to deal with issues for more than 10 minutes, if someone can't get over it then it's his fault. the game should not allow actions that annoy others or negatively impact others if they are not want to get involved. at least a perfect game. no game can be perfect but there could be some limitations of what you can do and what you can't. some people grabbed a knife as soon as they were able too and tried to stab the first person. I'm sure it could be easily tracked if they did anything useful across all their lives.
I don't think the number of victims got anything to do with it. ofc when it's super high then yes. But it also just means that they were probably in a duel that many times and they came out alive and the victim wanted to kill him but couldn't.

I taught quite a few people how to deal with griefers, I didn't provoke anyone, I had lives where all was peaceful, I had lives where I had to kill multiple people as they disturbed the peace. I even gave a warning which makes no sense because you lose the surprise effect, but wanted to be fair with them. most people just laughed at it, or talked back, there were a few who didn't knew what they are doing or completely flawed logic, but then too many people started to play the newbie card.

your reasoning was that you wanted to kill someone and you couldn't do it, and 'if you want to kill someone you should be able to'. this made it one sided, it was entirely based on the surprise effect, and in lot of occasions predetermined, as a player was slowed down around the corners so he couldn't be out of range. also 0 risk for the attacker as long as he was quicker to take action. flawed system. if someone goes for a kill, he should be fully prepared to die too. if not then he should take other measures.

and with the leadership based on magic things, and random things (like really? you can't pester people for 60 minutes and you aren't the best player just because you keep all kids) the framing wars began. people making up reasons why to kill others. so if you ever argued or had a bad word they killed you because they could. even if I ignored them they kept wasting my time and provoke me.

There are times where nobody is right. It's not black and white. people want different things and some go as far as killing for it. Build a room left or right? owning a cart? stabby stab. there were some weird reasons why we were fighting. honestly in those cases the duel was best, as you wouldn't be able to work anyway so one of you had to go. so extrapolating that there are evil and nice people is just not right. in this community the most toxic players were that were fully convinced that they are nice people and nothing that they do or don't do could affect others negatively. it's completely subjective what people consider annoying. like some mothers spawning 30 kids without teaching or taking care of any of them. so others are the cruel who tell her not to. or all this 'no killing' people who let the griefer roam for years

that's why duels solved a lot of issues, the winner got to continue his game and the loser is forced to redraw. if anything , the game should force people to be honorable. for all the blame I got, half of it was based on no evidence and the same people with their self declared superior philosophy said that they wouldn't accept equal terms. so if you could force people to declare a reason and put something on the line, it could solve most of the issues. you say X is a griefer, invite him on a duel. it could require a 'building' made for this purpose. if they both accept then they teleport into the arena and fight. if one refuses, then the leadership could decide to banish him or check out the other player. there could be rights and privileges. like every item you make from scratch is yours until you share or for a period of time. people could have a private zone. people who are flagged and invited for duels, can refuse but then they couldn't take weapons or interact with other players items.
there could be pvp free zones, and there could be automatic arena fight if they ever return.
but the simplest thing would be a comparison between how many useful things they crafted that life. would be a bit more advantageous for people who prefer that playstyle and who are older, but then so what? if I would see a report of someone's life archievents, I could easily tell if he is the griefer or not. an entitled 4 year old running around to get revenge for the 'injustice' he suffered in all those 4 minutes? or the dumbass who spent 40 minutes cutting 10 trees and chatting with people. if somebody is really a griefer, won't just go and collect items to then be able to kill someone and get away with it. and if so, I wouldn't mind. we don't have a good metric that measures who is good at this game. heck, I wouldn't even mind that people chatting with others in their vicinity would generate points toward a 'social' descriptor. you would know that he is a rolelayer or just hanging around talking, and not a griefer.

you might think that someone is a griefer, but some people hate you because you hate them, because they want attention, and if you don't give it to them they just buffer themselves until you do, they don't lose anything because they don't care. some people were framing me for 2 hours because they weren't treated like a princess. some were just too bored and exaggerated every aspect and roleplayed vengeance.

90% of the time when one player was more vehement about accusing someone, the players sided with him. like old players were disadvantaged because they couldn't flip out on some small bullshit the other player got offended upon. and 90% of the time where you offered that you will ignore him if he does something useful, gameplay related, they refused to go back to work if they ever even worked. because the game requires zero personal involvement toward personal usefulness, and some people can convince themselves that they deserve to just take take take and never give anything for their sole existence. I'm not fully against role-players, but in a survival game people should really produce enough for them to eat on base minimum.

and actually one of the most important factor is skill. because you should never give power to players that are new and already bad intended. I saw griefers that couldn't take a knife out a basket but tried to kill others. so yes, I don't say that there should be an order of who can kill who, but there is a huge divide where people don't even know the controls, the game rules or the whole concept of why doing what, and if they aren't even flexible to learn it then they deserve getting killed for it or at least not to put them in leading positions.

but all could be solved with just a personal blacklist/whitelist where people who don't like each other wouldn't be put near each other often. I had plenty of friends and quite a few butthurt kids I didn't care about but they had some personal vendetta against me while I didn't even know what the hell they are on about. And I had some hostile people becoming friends (tho most of people who I was fighting with never ever were hostile). but probably there isn't enough of a playerbase to split apart kids and low iq people and menstruating werewolves from people who genuinely wanted to play the game and create things inside it.

your justification was one sided and not that well thought out. just because someone is pissed, doesn't mean he is right.

Spoonwood · 2022-03-13 05:21:00

pein wrote:

just because someone is pissed, doesn't mean he is right.

*laughs* It's interesting that you're the one saying this pein.

Anyways, the current system is still better than the old one. I don't mean it's better for combat. It's better than the previous one at making it so that people who don't want to engage in combat don't have to. Like I remember you pein saying that some idiot killed you once or twice for no reason. There was something wrong with that and something bad in that. And like if someone does something which is "small infraction" like taking one board to make a bucket when someone else expected that board would be there for useless flooring (at least for a very long time, and then barely useful later on), well, there's no longer or less often a stupid stabbing that happens afterwards.

I also think it's better in that murderous players don't get the opportunity *as often* to kill someone than before. The death by murder rate went down for a reason.

pein · 2022-03-13 15:16:32

Spoonwood wrote:

pein wrote:
just because someone is pissed, doesn't mean he is right.
*laughs* It's interesting that you're the one saying this pein.
Anyways, the current system is still better than the old one. I don't mean it's better for combat. It's better than the previous one at making it so that people who don't want to engage in combat don't have to. Like I remember you pein saying that some idiot killed you once or twice for no reason. There was something wrong with that and something bad in that. And like if someone does something which is "small infraction" like taking one board to make a bucket when someone else expected that board would be there for useless flooring (at least for a very long time, and then barely useful later on), well, there's no longer or less often a stupid stabbing that happens afterwards.
I also think it's better in that murderous players don't get the opportunity *as often* to kill someone than before. The death by murder rate went down for a reason.

for a conflict you need two people. one of them will die. one of them will have his murder counter higher. you can't assume which one is which. if you play the game for fun, to create, you don't bother with others. if they still insist on their grudge it forces you to deal with them. if you can't than that is demotivating. if people don't care about the game and what they do that life, they got all time time in the world to frame you and collect allies. I'm not pissed, I'm the most calm person ever, I kill you with a smile and you are forgotten. some people want to kill you and spend a whole life doing it and days talking about it.

that's the thing, people die all the time. graveyard simulator. how can people care more for the dead than the living? some people ask for 10 minutes straight to be buried. Same efforts could be spent to feed the living ones. of course, if you cant kill others then there are less people killed. but putting noobs in charge and removing the ability to do justice isn't the same as reducing conflicts. something fun was removed and replaced with nothing. the game is less ever since.

I would be fine with no killing at all but reduce the ways people can interact with your items. less killing but way more grifiefers who annoy you.

Spoonwood · 2022-03-13 16:58:32

pein wrote:

less killing but way more grifiefers who annoy you.

No. My experience is quite different. There exist fewer griefers. And less annoyance, since someone targeting me with a knife who cannot stab me often isn't all that annoying. Or at the least, it's less annoying than someone who could kill me, and may have done so already when I was trying to fire clay or something.

Also, I'm often enough leader these days that I can exile those people or kill them. But, I also often don't see them, or they don't target me.

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#1 2021-09-23 04:58:22

How did the combat become so shit

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