a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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I've had my camera hijacked by another player twice now as well. No idea how to reproduce it, though.
Maybe just pay your taxes?
The problem with berry planting isn't that the berries are an inefficient food source, its that they deplete soil if left untended for a single generation when the bush inevitably dies.
Its not as prevalent now (partly I hope because of law awareness), but in week 1 it was common to see huge fields of dead berry bushes when scouting locations. Plots like that are no longer viable, hence the inclusion in the laws-- it screws the next people through the area.
Now, if you're producing 1+ compost for each domestic berry bush you plant, suddenly they become worth it. That's why the law goes on to say `Only plant if composting`.
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Geese never respawn, so should never be hunted for food. They are necessary for advanced smithing, though, so there's no getting around depleting them for that.
Thanks for going above and beyond over launch week!
I like the idea of a call and response! We're definitely seeing play patterns spread based on catchy phrases/rules, as with the infamously terrible one carrot rule.
I'm wondering though if 'one mother one daughter' is too dogmatic.
Mothers should have more than one daughter each, because the mortality rates are so high; a single unbroken mother-daughter line is very vulnerable to being disrupted by a random bear attack or just plain bad luck.
The ideal should be "one mother one daughter-- per hamlet". Surplus daughters should head east to greener pastures so they can help spread the milkweed way.
How about just "once a hamlet is full" -> "head east of eden"?
I don't see how being born to the same settlement follows from the first point. Does the birth selection algorithm prefer to put you in a family line you are already connected to? If so, that's awesome.
I might go cpp spelunking...
Are you intentionally trolling me?
Yes, you can make compost, but compost is very expensive to produce (due to the berry requirement).
My question is: given a supply of water (which is more or less fixed for a location, unless you engage in long distance trade), what's an effective mix of carrots, milkweed, and wheat to plant?
Maybe wheat is only effective if you have a controlled berry supply, and can manage to produce the compost.
The soil limitation starts to comes into play when you want to make pies, though.
I added some short justifications to each law at TyrantNomad's recommendation; he pointed out that he didn't realize that fruiting milkweed actually grew back!
Teach your children.
I'd like some feedback from people on what actually kind of hamlet actually works in game.
I think that to support a family of four with a small carrot seed surplus, you need somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 plots of carrot, with 2-3 reserved for seed. I know that to fully support on carrots you need a little higher, but I'm assuming a supplemented diet with berries and rabbits-- could someone else who has had a successful hamlet experience confirm?
I've had the most success getting people to leave when I scout out the next location myself, and show them where to set up. This encourages lots of small communities close together, which I think is ideal. Please respond with real world results!
How much milkweed and how much wheat should be cultivated in a given hamlet? In the long run, the limiting factor is soil. Both pies and clothes are huge efficiency boots, but both require a huuuuge commitment of soil to reap any single-generational.
Great info!
This is more evidence for forming small hamlets instead of centralized villages.
Some additional variables to consider are rabbit meat and pies. I haven't done the math, but pies are *significantly* more efficient than individual carrots. Rabbit meat is an excellent supplement to a pure carrot diet.
We still need to figure out what kinds of play patterns lead to success. At this point, we still haven't really had *any* successful civilizations.
The spread of the sustainability laws has had a direct impact on the amount of available milkweed & filled ponds.
I've been advocating away from building centralized villages with the current tech level, and encouraging people to adopt a hamlet and migratory approach
I'm inclined to deal with carrots in a second cultural layer (tenets) since they comparably easy to produce...
That is reinforced by my third proposed cultural layer, the MILKWEED PEOPLE.
So we have:
1) Sustainability Laws - these get new players behaving in a way that prevents ecological catastrophe as they learn the game
2) Tenets - social norms; guidelines for single generational success
3) Milkweed People - migratory pattern; guidelines for multi-generational success
I think its actually an advantage to be nomadic young (especially if you have a basket of food), because you have more time before you need to raise a baby.
Lets all experiment! Then we can codify
We've hit a max of 12 generations so far.
We need to figure out a more robust social pattern before we worry about maxing tech.
The root problem right now is that large carrot farms are almost impossible to get to work.
Small carrot farms are ridiculously successful.
Central hubs are not the right model for success with our current tech options.
Each new generation striking out east can be supported in part by their original home; it can help them bootstrap.
But yeah-- it'll be risky to be the kid striking out east.
The alternative though is to overpopulate and wipe out the hamlet, which is what has happened within 12 gens to every village so far.
The mission of the MILKWEED PEOPLE is simple: cross-generational survival.
First and foremost, The MILKWEED PEOPLE follow thesustainability laws, also known as the FOUR LAWS. Any adherent of the LAWS are friends of the Milkweed People.
The MILKWEED PEOPLE have three central RESPONSIBILITIES.
1) Obey & teach the LAWS
2) Help Develop & Follow the TENETS
3) Survive to Next Generation & Spread East
The MILKWEED PEOPLE shall form small HAMLETS.
Each HAMLET shall consist of MOTHER DAUGHTER SON & ELDER. More than that shall surely fail.
The MILKWEED PEOPLE shall have many children, but when a hamlet is full (1 mother, 1 daughter, 1 son, 1 elder), children must spread eastward.
Children who know the LAWS may be taught the TENETS. Children who do not know the LAWS must learn them first.
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I will edit this post based on feedback. Please contribute ideas to help launch this persistent society!
I disagree pretty strongly with the push for centralized villages.
The problem is that they are not very fault tolerant. One mismanaged generation in the carrot farm, and the family line fails.
Until we have some kind of granary technology, a distributed model will be much more successful at surviving over time.
I'm going to start a wiki page & a new forum post for building a unified set of cultural rules.
I think we should try and structure these together into a unified religion.
The sustainability laws would come first-- make sure a new player knows how to avoid trashing the land.
Next come the Farming Tenets-- rules for building stable society.
A big problem I see is that you have very little time to teach your kids. I think new players should always learn the laws first. Maybe if someone doesn't know the laws, teach them, then send them east?
Then, if they already know the laws, teach the tenets and keep them.
The world is 500x the size of jupiter. There is no shortage of fertile land.
The challenge is starting a sustaining civilizations. Its supposed to be hard to do this. Laws & tenants & rules are an effort to create primitive society-- this is part of the game!!
I've been starting to encourage children to start neighboring hamlets.
I think many small hamlets (small farms) are superior to single large farms (villages).
We don't have the technology yet to support villages.
Keep hamlets to three or four players. Only childbearing woman at a time-- everyone else should spread out.
Eventually you will have enough hamlets to support metalworks & a cook, which can be shared across multiple hamlets.
I'd add the law of warmth:
5) Cold babies are hungry babies. Make fire a high priority and keep your newborns close to it to greatly reduce the calories they burn.
That is very useful information! Definitely teach people.
I don't think that fits the theme of the laws, though. The laws are meant to prevent actions that screw future generations over. I'm trying to keep this very succinct so that you can realistically teach all the babies that you raise.
If we try and fit every bit of survival lore, it becomes unrealistic to teach.
Overfeeding babies just screws the single generation. It doesn't harm the land.
I agree that berry bushes are a scourge.
THOU SHALL NOT PLANT BERRY BUSHES