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#1 2019-12-13 06:20:03

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 4,121

Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

If this game is to get more attention from people watching videos (Jason hypothesized this as the cause of two increases in player count that happened last winter), then it needs to look like an interesting game to watch.

I have looked at some of the old videos from before the temperature overhaul.  The first effect I will note concerns the temperature bar.  No matter where one goes it dances around so long as the player moves.  A similar same sort of dance happens inside of buildings these days near fire, or passing from outdoors to indoors or vice versa.  But, that dance happens in fewer places.  Characters journeying outside of towns would have that dance going on rather consistently.   And the indoor heat dance now seems narrower than before the temperature overhaul, as getting to a burning temperature doesn't occur as much.

I also saw a family living in a small desert between a grassland and a jungle.  Two horses trotted around in the desert!  Who lives with wild animals like that these days?  My eyes see a rather consistent pattern of farms for people playing these days.  Farms are in grass.  But that's nothing dynamic like a horse trotting around wildly.  Or a snake or a boar around.  Or mosquitoes doing their mosquito float. 

Personally I remember hunting lots of boars as an Eve under the old water system.  Often enough your family would have its farm in a swamp before the pump overhaul.  Thus, I suspect, the pump overhaul, though I do think that it changed pumps in an interesting way, with its introduction of springs, made blander environments a more common sight.  Springs have made the game less visually appealing in another way.  Before the pump overhaul, one would see things like a shallow well next to a deep well.  Or a pump next to a deep well next to a diesel water pump.  But now?  Now it seems like you're lucky to see a pump next to a pond.  And there's fewer possibilities that you can see if you were to watch a video at random.

In one video I also saw a seal in a grassland.  That's kind of interesting.  How did the seal usually acclimated to snowy environments, survive in the grassland?  I do remember things like out of biome mosquitoes, but it could be interesting to see a wolf moving around in grass, even with the increased danger of something like that.  But, such danger from nature can provide interest in the form of challenge, though it can also be annoying and seem too unrealistic.

There's also less tundra, desert, and jungles on the map relative to other biomes since the topopgraphic map change occurred.  Players probably see funny penguins less often.  Same goes for those dynamic trotting horses.  I guess players do see more bison, but still that's fewer moving animals than seals, penguins, horses, snakes, and mosquitoes.

And more recently with the introduction of the hideous dropsy, players probably see animals and other interesting things like bananas less often.

As a counterpoint, I suppose malachite and sand pits came into existence.  But, the increase in resources doesn't seem to have quite the same effect as seeing horses trot around.  Or those out of biome animals did.  And though jungles got more interesting with sugar cane and peppers and tomatoes, it's less likely that a new observer to the game would see those plants than before.

Watching television would probably be less appealing for most people if people switched from color television to black and white television.  So, why the hell does there apparently exist a pattern across many updates which causes the diversity of surrounding environments of characters to decrease?  Doing such doesn't make things more beautiful.  It just consistently makes things more bland.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-13 06:25:30)

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#2 2020-03-08 13:26:09

FishRfriendsnotfood
Banned
Registered: 2018-06-17
Posts: 158

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

Spoonwood wrote:

If this game is to get more attention from people watching videos (Jason hypothesized this as the cause of two increases in player count that happened last winter), then it needs to look like an interesting game to watch.

I have looked at some of the old videos from before the temperature overhaul.  The first effect I will note concerns the temperature bar.  No matter where one goes it dances around so long as the player moves.  A similar same sort of dance happens inside of buildings these days near fire, or passing from outdoors to indoors or vice versa.  But, that dance happens in fewer places.  Characters journeying outside of towns would have that dance going on rather consistently.   And the indoor heat dance now seems narrower than before the temperature overhaul, as getting to a burning temperature doesn't occur as much.

I also saw a family living in a small desert between a grassland and a jungle.  Two horses trotted around in the desert!  Who lives with wild animals like that these days?  My eyes see a rather consistent pattern of farms for people playing these days.  Farms are in grass.  But that's nothing dynamic like a horse trotting around wildly.  Or a snake or a boar around.  Or mosquitoes doing their mosquito float. 

Personally I remember hunting lots of boars as an Eve under the old water system.  Often enough your family would have its farm in a swamp before the pump overhaul.  Thus, I suspect, the pump overhaul, though I do think that it changed pumps in an interesting way, with its introduction of springs, made blander environments a more common sight.  Springs have made the game less visually appealing in another way.  Before the pump overhaul, one would see things like a shallow well next to a deep well.  Or a pump next to a deep well next to a diesel water pump.  But now?  Now it seems like you're lucky to see a pump next to a pond.  And there's fewer possibilities that you can see if you were to watch a video at random.

In one video I also saw a seal in a grassland.  That's kind of interesting.  How did the seal usually acclimated to snowy environments, survive in the grassland?  I do remember things like out of biome mosquitoes, but it could be interesting to see a wolf moving around in grass, even with the increased danger of something like that.  But, such danger from nature can provide interest in the form of challenge, though it can also be annoying and seem too unrealistic.

There's also less tundra, desert, and jungles on the map relative to other biomes since the topopgraphic map change occurred.  Players probably see funny penguins less often.  Same goes for those dynamic trotting horses.  I guess players do see more bison, but still that's fewer moving animals than seals, penguins, horses, snakes, and mosquitoes.

And more recently with the introduction of the hideous dropsy, players probably see animals and other interesting things like bananas less often.

As a counterpoint, I suppose malachite and sand pits came into existence.  But, the increase in resources doesn't seem to have quite the same effect as seeing horses trot around.  Or those out of biome animals did.  And though jungles got more interesting with sugar cane and peppers and tomatoes, it's less likely that a new observer to the game would see those plants than before.

Watching television would probably be less appealing for most people if people switched from color television to black and white television.  So, why the hell does there apparently exist a pattern across many updates which causes the diversity of surrounding environments of characters to decrease?  Doing such doesn't make things more beautiful.  It just consistently makes things more bland.

prob·lem
/ˈpräbləm/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: problem; plural noun: problems

    1.
    a matter or situation regarded as unwelcome or harmful and needing to be dealt with and overcome.
    "they have financial problems"
    h
    Similar:
    difficulty

    a thing that is difficult to achieve or accomplish.
    "motivation of staff can also be a problem"
    denoting or relating to people whose behavior causes difficulties to themselves and others.
    "practitioners help families develop strategies for managing problem behavior in teens"

2.
Physics•Mathematics
an inquiry starting from given conditions to investigate or demonstrate a fact, result, or law.

    Geometry
    a proposition in which something has to be constructed.
    (in various games, especially chess) an arrangement of pieces in which the solver has to achieve a specified result.


Just pointing out that you in fact do not know what what a problem is, and you continue to be a vainglorious gasbag.


I'm fish, deal with it or don't, idgaf

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#3 2020-03-08 14:20:49

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,464

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

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#4 2020-03-08 19:22:39

Keyin
Member
Registered: 2019-05-09
Posts: 257

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:

prob·lem
/ˈpräbləm/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: problem; plural noun: problems

    1.
    a matter or situation regarded as unwelcome or harmful and needing to be dealt with and overcome.
    "they have financial problems"
    ....

Just pointing out that you in fact do not know what what a problem is, and you continue to be a vainglorious gasbag.


Under this definition anything can be a problem or not a problem, depending on your viewpoint. For example, is the concentration of wealth into the 1% a 'problem'? If you're the 1%, you'd probably say no. In the same way, because these changes are unwelcome to Spoonwood, it is an unwelcome thing needing to be dealt with and overcome via changing the code.

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#5 2020-03-08 19:28:12

sigmen4020
Member
Registered: 2019-01-05
Posts: 849

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

Keyin wrote:
FishRfriendsnotfood wrote:

prob·lem
/ˈpräbləm/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: problem; plural noun: problems

    1.
    a matter or situation regarded as unwelcome or harmful and needing to be dealt with and overcome.
    "they have financial problems"
    ....

Just pointing out that you in fact do not know what what a problem is, and you continue to be a vainglorious gasbag.


Under this definition anything can be a problem or not a problem, depending on your viewpoint. For example, is the concentration of wealth into the 1% a 'problem'? If you're the 1%, you'd probably say no. In the same way, because these changes are unwelcome to Spoonwood, it is an unwelcome thing needing to be dealt with and overcome via changing the code.

You can make everything a problem if you try hard enough.


For the time being, I think we have enough content.

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#6 2020-03-08 21:41:03

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,461

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

sigmen4020 wrote:

You can make everything a problem if you try hard enough.

I think that you just describe the meaning of Life.

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#7 2020-03-09 00:41:49

antking:]#
Member
Registered: 2018-12-29
Posts: 578

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

solution add more animals


"hear how the wind begins to whisper, but now it screams at me" said ashe
"I remember it from a Life I never Lived" said Peaches
"Now Chad don't invest in Asian markets" said Chad's Mom
Herry the man who cheated death

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#8 2020-03-09 00:51:05

sigmen4020
Member
Registered: 2019-01-05
Posts: 849

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

antking:]# wrote:

solution add more animals

Solution: add a Spoonwood bot to the game.


For the time being, I think we have enough content.

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#9 2020-03-09 01:14:16

Starknight_One
Member
Registered: 2018-10-15
Posts: 345

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

DestinyCall wrote:
sigmen4020 wrote:

You can make everything a problem if you try hard enough.

I think that you just describe the meaning of Life.

But he didn't mention any of the Pythons or even the plot!

Ah well. Words to live by, indeed.

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#10 2020-03-09 02:55:25

Legs
Member
Registered: 2019-07-12
Posts: 376

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

Really though, I miss seeing different strategies like settling in a desert and living the nudist life with that ambient heat and using nearby ponds as free well sites. It would be nice if we could turn ice holes or hot springs into well sites. Some diversity in where we can settle would be appreciated. Maybe hostile biomes require a little more tech so that developed towns can go exploring and create satellites in difficult places.

That sort of thing isn't really possible with the population of this game though. Any more than 2-3 spots and each of them starts looking like a ghost town. I feel like lowkey that's half the reason behind the family specialization update. Forcing everyone to live together because otherwise the community splinters too much.


Loco Motion

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#11 2020-03-09 03:55:39

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,461

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

As much as I like to play as an Eve, there's a very good reason why we don't have tons of Eves spawning anymore.   Too many Eves means too many villages.  Too many villages means not enough babies to go around and entire villages dying out every time the player population dips for a few hours.   

We can have stable lineages or we can have lots of villages, but we can't have both.   

However, even if we wanted to choose variety over longevity, it isn't really a choice anymore.  Now that we have racial restrictions, too many Eves would spread the server population too far apart without any roads or bells to find each other.    All the people who are currently complaining about the boredom of living in the same three towns will discover that living in an endless string of isolated pre-sheep villages can be just as boring as being trapped in the same bell town, life after life.    Diversity is the spice of life, but the tech tree in this game can be reached in less than 24 hours and the early game is almost entirely linear.   There's no variety.

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#12 2020-03-09 12:03:46

sigmen4020
Member
Registered: 2019-01-05
Posts: 849

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

Legs wrote:

Really though, I miss seeing different strategies like settling in a desert and living the nudist life with that ambient heat and using nearby ponds as free well sites. It would be nice if we could turn ice holes or hot springs into well sites. Some diversity in where we can settle would be appreciated. Maybe hostile biomes require a little more tech so that developed towns can go exploring and create satellites in difficult places.

Settling near the desert as nudists wasn’t just a different strategy back in the day, it was straight up mandatory if you wanted your camp to have a chance at survival. If you didn’t settle near the desert the vast majority of vets would SID on you, and you’d be left with noobs who don’t know how to start up a proper camp. People were even being bashed on the forums for going against this “different strategy”.

I’m all for different strategies when it comes settling as an Eve, but they need to be balanced. And the desert living strategy back in the day was so far from being balanced it’s not even funny. But by all means the option should be brought back if it isn’t gonna be just the straight up superior strategy.


For the time being, I think we have enough content.

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#13 2020-03-09 14:25:38

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 4,121

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

DestinyCall wrote:

As much as I like to play as an Eve, there's a very good reason why we don't have tons of Eves spawning anymore.   Too many Eves means too many villages.  Too many villages means not enough babies to go around and entire villages dying out every time the player population dips for a few hours.   

We can have stable lineages or we can have lots of villages, but we can't have both.

I think you haven't taken into account the possibility of what things would look like if players could have bots as children.

sigmen4020 wrote:

Settling near the desert as nudists wasn’t just a different strategy back in the day, it was straight up mandatory if you wanted your camp to have a chance at survival.

No, it was not.  There existed jungle settlements.

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#14 2020-03-09 14:40:33

Elsayal
Member
Registered: 2018-11-04
Posts: 261

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

Not sure if jungle already existed at that time.


"I go"
"find"
"ging"

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#15 2020-03-09 15:03:10

sigmen4020
Member
Registered: 2019-01-05
Posts: 849

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

Spoonwood wrote:
sigmen4020 wrote:

Settling near the desert as nudists wasn’t just a different strategy back in the day, it was straight up mandatory if you wanted your camp to have a chance at survival.

No, it was not.  There existed jungle settlements.

Yea, we were nudists in the jungle too. Same thing, different environment.

And I won't say todays settle spots are any more diverse. You pretty much just settle in the grass biome and that's it. But at least clothes have an actual purpose. Going back to the mandatory nudist days won't solve anything.

Elsayal wrote:

Not sure if jungle already existed at that time.

Jungle definitely existed before the temperature update. Jungle has existed since around the Steam release.

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2020-03-09 15:06:12)


For the time being, I think we have enough content.

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#16 2020-03-09 15:12:11

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 4,121

Re: Problem: Consistent Decreasing Diversity in Surrounding Environments

sigmen4020 wrote:

And I won't say todays settle spots are any more diverse. You pretty much just settle in the grass biome and that's it. But at least clothes have an actual purpose. Going back to the mandatory nudist days won't solve anything.

Nudism wasn't mandatory.  Light clothing could help.  In particular when people would travel out out of town for resources like soil or iron or milkweed.

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