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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 2021-03-06 16:38:56

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,452

Having your own family

A lot of the aspects of the game are flawed when it comes to owning ressources and interactions with other families.

Each life you are born in a new family so making sure your family has more ressources than the other one to give them a higher chance to survive makes no sense since next life you are going to be born in the other family so if you do that you shoot yourself in the foot.

Now let's say that there would be the old arc system where a world would have a beginning and an end.

At the beginning of a world first time you get born in a family, if you live in that family more than 5-8 minutes you are locked to them for that world (server) and they become your family, the longer your lineage survives the more points you get, if your lineage dies you cant play on that server anymore until the world resets.

This would solve all the issues related to weird interactions between families that make no sense since you get reborn in the other family next life, and also make it much more interesting to keep your family alive and do stuff for them like making as much food as possible, getting lots of iron etc...

The only issue is that it would spread the playerbase over 2 even maybe 3 servers making lineages more likely to die, this could be fixed by simply making it so that if the lineage died because of lack of players (no girl born to keep lineage going) then next player to login would just spawn as a lineage member like a pseudo eve and keep the chain going.

Getting rid of the obligation to need other races obviously and the other weird restrictions like homeland etc...

And if the game is good more players will join anyway.

Also if you die before reaching 60 you would be on a 1 hour cooldown for that world (server), if you die of old age you can keep the chain going, to avoid death being pointless and just respawning in the same village no matter what happens.

This suits both type of playstyle, if you prefer variety you can die before 60 or manually change server otherwise you try your best to live to 60 and keep the chain.

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#2 2021-03-06 18:36:51

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,982

Re: Having your own family

Dodge wrote:

Each life you are born in a new family ...

????

When did you play last Dodge?

I played as a white Eve Spoon on Tuesday.  I played three to six more times that day I think.  Each time I was in that same family.

Many other people commonly reincarnate in the same family over the course of a day.

People report lack of Eve spawns as a consequence basically because of that also, see here: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 17#p105717

Dodge wrote:

Now let's say that there would be the old arc system where a world would have a beginning and an end.

Fewer one hour one life experiences.  Players dying due to the game conditions instead of factors within their own control.  A survival game worth the name means that players can survive.  So, you've proposed something which isn't about survival.

If the end of the family would wipe the world, alright. But, an arc system with a reset with players living in it, doesn't work.  In other words, a wipe *after* everyone goes off the server doesn't have the same issues.

Also, how does one family per server and players getting locked to a server work with players checking a custom server?  Do they get locked out if their family lives?  Or can they bypass that?

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#3 2021-03-06 19:16:56

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,452

Re: Having your own family

Spoon you're missing the point, the point is that you dont have your own family you switch between them, doesn't matter if sometimes you spawn in the same family or not.

Also the arc system IS about survival and NOT about game conditions ending lineages.

As long as you survive the arc keeps going and if it doesn't survive due to elements out of control of players like low pop due to timezone then it's fixed by allowing the lineage to keep going by making the next player spawn as a member of the lineage and keep it going like a pseudo eve.

In other words if lineage dies because of something that players dont have control over it doesn't count, but if all lineages die due to reasons players could have prevented then world resets.

There would be multiple families per server but you would be bound to one in that world (server), if your family in that world dies then you cant join this world (server) until world resets, no you couldn't bypass it by checking this custom server you would be locked out from it.

But you could join another world (server) as long as your family is alive in it.

So your not locked to a server you can join any you want but you are bound to one family per server, it's your family in that world and the longer they go the more you earn points, much easier point system to understand and win at than the current lineage score where not putting your kids in a prison makes you lose points.

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#4 2021-03-06 21:19:28

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,419

Re: Having your own family

Dodge wrote:

The only issue is that it would spread the playerbase over 2 even maybe 3 servers making lineages more likely to die, this could be fixed by simply making it so that if the lineage died because of lack of players (no girl born to keep lineage going) then next player to login would just spawn as a lineage member like a pseudo eve and keep the chain going.

Considering what our average server population is on a good day, I think this would work best if there was a limit of just one or two lineages per server.   When/if the game gets more popular, we would have enough people to populate more towns.   But this idea smply isn't going to work, if we have to stretch our current population across twelve families on three different servers.

Obviously race restrictions would need to go, as you already mentioned.  The bigger question is how to handle arc length.   Personally, I would prefer a fixed arc length, instead of the death match method used during the rift.

Each arc could last one week, for example.   So if you want to be an Eve, play on the first day of the new arc.   There could be an eight hour grace period to allow lineages to become established at the beginning - most Eves will not survive, as was seen during the rift, so without a grace period, a lot of players would end up banned from all servers almost immediately, which we do not want.  When the Eve window closes, you are assigned to your current lineage for the rest of the week.   If your active lineage dies out on the current server, you must start fresh on a new server.

I would also add in a fail condition - if the number of active lineages on the current server drops below two, then a new Eve will be allowed to spawn.   You are only eligible to spawn as a Late Eve if you don't have an active lineage, either because you haven't played on this server since the Eve window closed or because your lineage died out.   And this new lineage would be open to any player without an active lineage, so it would be a way for players to return before the arc reset.  Otherwise, I anticipate that server population would inevitably hit zero long before the one week cut off.


Dodge wrote:

As long as you survive the arc keeps going and if it doesn't survive due to elements out of control of players like low pop due to timezone then it's fixed by allowing the lineage to keep going by making the next player spawn as a member of the lineage and keep it going like a pseudo eve.

In other words if lineage dies because of something that players dont have control over it doesn't count, but if all lineages die due to reasons players could have prevented then world resets.

How would the game distinguish between a lineage death due to bad RNG or low server population compared with a death due to general incompetence or griefing?

We don't have control over a lot of things.  If all of our babies are SIDS babies, is that preventable or not?  Or what if I am the last girl and I have three daughters, but one steps on a rattlesnake by accident and another forgets to eat while I teach her how to make stew and starves in the middle of town after I leave her alone for five seconds to grab firewood.  And the last one turns out to be a child-killing griefer.  Am I a bad parent or just a very unlucky one?  If our town is full of deadly bears, is that the game's fault for not providing better tools to tame and saddle bears or is it our fault for not teaching our girl children to stay away from strange bears? 

Basically, if our women all die from a variety of accidents and misadventures, at what point is it our fault for not taking better care of them or the game's fault for not giving us enough spares? 


This is an impossible question, because I don't think the game is smart enough to detect when a lineage SHOULD have survived.  It can tell that we ran out of girls and now everyone is dead.   But it can't really look at our lack of offspring and know if it could have been prevented by in-game actions.  That is too complex.  I don't think it would be an easy fix, which is one of the reasons I would recommend a fixed arc length instead of trying to revive families that die prematurely.

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#5 2021-03-06 21:47:19

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,452

Re: Having your own family

@Destinycall

Yes having some limit on number of lineages would be required, i was thinking more 3-4, could be one for each race during Eve window, if whites die next Eve is white for example and also yes during the Eve window you wouldn't be banned or locked to a family to avoid the issues you mentionned.

I strongly disagree on arc length, if it can keep going on then it keeps going on, we have multiple servers might as well use them, but ressources and the game in general should be balanced to avoid some sort of limbo state where you are still surviving but shouldnt be.

Regarding figuring out the difference between a death of a lineage that could have been prevented by player action or not it's pretty easy, if the lineages dies because no girls could be born due to nobody loging in then it doesnt count otherwise it does.

Bad luck/RNG is part of life, incompetence can be solved by teaching the members of your family (which will be the same players over lives) and also making sure the village has enough food, water, is protected from external danger etc.

And regarding griefing the good thing with having your own family is that if there is a griefer in the village and that multiple members of the village curse him they would be banned from the family and therefore banned from the server.

So we would switch to a curse system that depends on the number of curses from the same family makes you permanently banned from that family, no weird system where you can respawn if the people who cursed you are not in a x radius etc...

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#6 2021-03-06 23:40:42

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,419

Re: Having your own family

Dodge wrote:

I strongly disagree on arc length, if it can keep going on then it keeps going on, we have multiple servers might as well use them, but ressources and the game in general should be balanced to avoid some sort of limbo state where you are still surviving but shouldnt be.

You really think that one week is not long enough?   How long do you think the average lineage can last?  What about two weeks or a month long arc?  That feels excessive.

Last time I checked, most families are lucky to last a full 24 hours.  Has that changed?   I haven't really paid attention to lineages in a long time.   I suppose it might have improved.

Does anyone know what the current record is for longest lineage in the current build?   Now I am curious.

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#7 2021-03-07 02:05:03

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,982

Re: Having your own family

Dodge wrote:

Spoon you're missing the point, the point is that you dont have your own family you switch between them, doesn't matter if sometimes you spawn in the same family or not.

If you're spawning into the same family, then you're not switching between them.

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#8 2021-03-07 03:38:15

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,419

Re: Having your own family

Spoonwood wrote:
Dodge wrote:

Spoon you're missing the point, the point is that you dont have your own family you switch between them, doesn't matter if sometimes you spawn in the same family or not.

If you're spawning into the same family, then you're not switching between them.

I believe that Dodge's point is that since you are not locked into only spawning in one family, it is just a coincidence if you keep spawning into the same one every time. 

Eventually, you can and will spawn into a different family.

The respawn changes that allow for lineage-chaining make it more likely to respawn into past lineages, but they do not guarantee it.

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#9 2021-03-07 04:27:29

QuirkySmirkyIan
Member
From: New Jersey, United States
Registered: 2018-07-06
Posts: 259

Re: Having your own family

lol why would you want a game mechanic where you can't play infinite lives...


Let me drive truck pls.

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#10 2021-03-07 06:09:36

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,452

Re: Having your own family

DestinyCall wrote:

You really think that one week is not long enough?   How long do you think the average lineage can last?  What about two weeks or a month long arc?  That feels excessive.

Making it a set length completely ruins the point of having your own family and do your best to make them survive as long as possible over the other ones because then you just tell yourself it will be over in 2 days anyway so no point at trying my best to keep going.

Kinda similar to rust when a wipe is soon nobody gives a shit anymore and the game is played very differently as in most people leave and the rest try to find decaying bases to loot them.

Spoonwood wrote:

If you're spawning into the same family, then you're not switching between them.

Currently even if sometimes you spawn to the same family due to RNG or wathever other factor your not bound to one family.

QuirkySmirkyIan wrote:

lol why would you want a game mechanic where you can't play infinite lives...

?

You can still play infinite lives as long as your family survives and even if they dont you can play infinite lives in another world (server)

As for the reason why, it solves all the problems that the game has in regards to having interactions with other civilisations that make sense, for example right now it makes no sense to favorite the village you are in over another one because eventually you will get born in the other one.

But that's complete bullshit, if you are born in a family you're supposed to do wathever it takes to make them survive even if that means having to steal or kill in desperate situations but if you do that with the current game you just shoot yourself in the foot because the village you stole from might be next you spawn in.

It makes it so you care a lot more to make them survive because they are your family, them not surviving means you lose something and that's when interesting situations happen because you are willing to do anything to keep them alive.

Right now if the family you spent time in dies it has absolutly no consequences, so why care?

You care more about the stuff you built that might get lost instead of the family actually dying which is a shame for a game like this and ruins a big part of what the game could be and the situations that could happen.

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#11 2021-03-07 08:04:55

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,419

Re: Having your own family

But if your family dies, you just switch to a different "world" and keep playing, same as before.    This mechanic ties your access to a particular server to the fate of your family, but it doesn't really give you much ownership over that fate.   I am not convinced that it would improve my connection with my virtual family more than the existing game model.

If I help construct an Eve camp for the Smith family and spend a couple of real-world hours helping it to build and thrive, I will feel pretty invested in that village and want the family to keep going.  They are MY family, even if I am not locked into only spawning in that family.  I have made it mine by working hard to develop that early camp into something better.    If I log in the next day and I can visit that town, I would be excited to see how it is doing.   And if I can't get back to that village, I will wonder what happened ... and then move on to my next life in a new village.

I don't really see how I would feel any stronger or better connected to my village if I logged in the next day to find I couldn't play on that server at all right now because Smith family died while I was off-line.    There is nothing I could do to prevent that, beyond never logging out of OHOL, and I have to work sometimes to pay for my internet connection.

Honestly, I think it would be pretty upsetting and frustrating to be told my family died while I was gone, especially if I was emotionally connected to that village and I'd invested multiple hours into developing the town and teaching the next generation how to keep the village going.   I couldn't even go back to visit my old village and try to revive it, because it exists on a server I can't access again until after the next arc wipe, whenever that might be.   

If that same disappointment was waiting for me every time I logged back into OHOL, I would have a hard time getting seriously invested in my next family.   After all, they are just going to be gone in a day or two, regardless of my contributions.  Not to mention that all I am really preserving by keeping them alive a little longer is server access.  And one server is identical to the next one, so why worry about that?   It would be no different than being born on the same server to a new family, just really really far away.

I understand what you are trying to achieve, but there are some serious problems with your proposed solution.   I don't think it would work in the way you want it to work.  People would still care more about the place, than the people in the village.  We would all still be strangers to each other, not true family.     Something is missing.  Perhaps we need a way to make lasting friendships in-game.

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#12 2021-03-07 08:52:04

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,452

Re: Having your own family

Yes you're invested in the village you build but you dont care if it's x or y family that lives in it, so it's not about the family.

Yes it would be upsetting or disapointing to find out when you wake up that your family died but that's what motivates you to go the extra mile to do everything possible to prevent that.

If there is 4 families in a world you want yours to survive, there would be advantages (perks) to having other civilisations alive but eventually if it comes down to it you would do wathever it takes to make your family survive over the other ones.

We dont have this in game right now, currently a family dying means absolutly nothing and it makes a lot of content and interactions in the game completely pointless.

I disagree that people would still care more about the place than the people in the village, for some it might be true, but for most keeping your family alive is your ticket for the access in that world.

Off course you wouldn't be long time friends with the people in the village they are your family and each life is a new one, it's not a game about that like habbo hotel and if you want to exchange discord names with family members in the village then feel free to do it.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding i'm not saying it would make you care on a personnal level with members of your family because you know them for a long time, it's still supposed to be a one hour life after all and there's only so much you can do and how much you can get to know someone in an hour.

You would eventually get to know each other better since it would be roughly the same people in the same village but that's not point, matter of fact it would break the illusion that it's a new life each time and that your uncle is not the same person as your mother in last life.

The point is that it makes you want your family to survive and you are invested in their survival which opens up a completely different perspective on how you play the game.

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#13 2021-03-07 13:12:48

arkajalka
Member
From: Eesti
Registered: 2018-03-23
Posts: 447

Re: Having your own family

+1 for this idea. Really like it. Atm this is a communist world cause every family is your family. And if you have big projects going on you have to sink your memerscore when you try to sid to that village where your project is ongoing.


I am Sheep, the lord of kraut, maker of the roads, professional constructor, master smith, bonsai enthusiast, arctic fisher, dog whisperer, naked  nomad and an ORGANIZER. Nerf sharp stone it's op.

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#14 2021-03-07 16:04:42

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,419

Re: Having your own family

So you want me to care about a name instead of caring about a place?  So I want to get born back into Smith family, rather than returning to Smith family village?

I understand that this would change your relationship with other families, since you only have a personal interest in keeping Smith family going, but I am not convinced that this would make the game play experience any better than simply removing race restrictions and keeping the current lineage-chaining mechanics that Jason added a while back that lets you "stick" to your favorite village.    That would give you access to the village where you keep all your stuff as long as you keep a certain family alive and doesn't require as many mechanical changes, since most of the code is already in the game.

After all, if I am not getting attached to the actual people in my family, then I don't see how that is any better than the current location-based village loyalty.   I don't really care about my "family".  I still just care about the time I have invested in that place and want to get back to it in the future to see how it has progressed.

If the goal is to inspire group loyalty, I would need to have a way to gain lasting bonds of friendship with other people in my assigned family .... and yes, that would mean violating anonymity so I could recognize players that I have meant and played with before.     Perhaps using a blessing system similar to the current curse system, but in reverse, so you can identify people who liked playing with you in past lives.   This would let you continue your story together, as long as that family stays alive.   When the server wipes, it could wipe the blessings away too, so you start with a blank slate at the start of each arc or when you switch to a new server and need to build those connections again. 

Or maybe it should keep them going.  It would be cool to meet someone you haven't seen in a long time and play together again as old friends.   I think it would inspire more longterm planing and teamwork because you could coordinate and act as a group more easily if everyone isn't a complete stranger every single life.

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#15 2021-03-07 17:52:59

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,452

Re: Having your own family

Yeah no it's not about making friends with other players there's plenty of other games for that, here i'm talking about the dynamics between civilisations that currently make no sense, would you currently go as far as stealing from another family to make yours survive, most likely not and even if you did you would shoot yourself in the foot since next life you could be in the family you stole from, it's about solving that type of absurdity.

It's not about making you care about each member of the village on a personnal level, it's about creating dynamics between civilisations where you actually have to think twice in which way you aproach the interaction with them.

I never had any issue talking or planning with anyone in the village even if they where "complete strangers" they are also your family members and you have a common interest in keeping each other alive, also it's not about long term planning since each life is a new one.

The goal is really not to make you care about the people behind their characters but you should do wathever it take to save that person that is your daughter no matter who that person is behind the character they are playing, in order to make your lineage survive as long as possible.

At this point it seems like a personnal issue instead of a problem with the concept, you are not contempt with caring about the character each player is playing and want a relationship more personnal, but this isn't what this is about.

Maybe you're not conviced but i'm sure plenty of other players would do wathever it takes to make their family survive it that meant that they can keep playing in the world they spent time in and would make them win the most points.

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#16 2021-03-07 18:43:53

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,419

Re: Having your own family

If the goal is to remove the co-dependency between villages and encourage more family loyalty, the biggest thing that needs to happen is removing race restrictions.    Even if you were tied to a particular family, the existence of race restrictions would break any loyalty you have for your personal village because you would still be completely dependent on the other villages (except for white trash).   But without race restrictions in the picture, true family loyalty is a natural result of getting attached to a particular village.   You want that family to live so you can go back to that village and see it growing. 

If the point of this change is to improve interaction between different families, splitting our small player population up between multiple servers is not going to accomplish that goal, because we just don't have enough people to have a rich tapestry of family interactions on three different servers at once.    We can't support ten or twelve different lineages.   We can barely manage four distinct villages on one server when it is mandatory that all four stay alive and support each other.   If we were in conflict with each other, all other families on the server would be dead within a day and then our family would be dead and then the arc would reset.   I don't see it as sustainable at all. 

It isn't necessary to lock people into a single family and go back to a battle-royale arc system, like we had during the rift experiment.  I think a simpler fix that would accomplish the same goal would be removing the race restrictions and then spreading out villages from each other, like they were before the rift.    Village interactions would be rarer because we are farther apart, but we would be able to develop our own villages independently and  encounters with strangers would be more interesting and less expected.   If we had a way to navigate longer distances to find neighboring villages, like the expert waystones, except they point to the nearest inhabited village, then we could set out to discover neighbors or build roads between villages or go to war.   Whatever you wanted to do.    With lineage-chaining, people could keep coming back to the same family and become attached to their continued existence naturally.

As far as winning the most points by having a long-lived lineage ... I've never been all that impressed with point-scoring in OHOL.   Gene score doesn't excite me.    I'm not interested in adding more artificial scores to this game.   But I'm not adverse to the idea of allowing each village to survive and decide its fate separate from its neighbors.   I think that would be a fine change.

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#17 2021-03-07 19:27:05

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,452

Re: Having your own family

We had no race restriction and spread villages before and it didn't create any interesting dynamics between civilisations...

So you're definitly wrong about that.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

Also realistically you dont need that many players on a server to make it interesting but you do need the game itself to be interesting and not just a food making simulator.

It's really not at all about being attached to a village, it would actually be better if you could migrate your family to any place in the world depending on which one gives you the most chance of survival at that time, no more water in our village, best solution could be to find a brand new place or try to migrate in another family's village or maybe even invade them but not stay in that old village without any ressources because "i spent time building this place in those other lives".

So being loyal to a family because of it's village is not a good motivation at all since it makes the game less interesting because your less likely to take the best decisions for your family if it implies leaving that village.

It's pretty straight forward your family surviving means you can keep playing on that server, that's a motivation big enough to make you take the survival of your family seriously and since you cant be born in another family in that world it changes the way you interact with them.

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#18 2021-03-08 17:06:26

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,419

Re: Having your own family

Dodge wrote:

We had no race restriction and spread villages before and it didn't create any interesting dynamics between civilisations...

So you're definitly wrong about that.

A lot has changed in this game since race restrictions were added, including highways, way-stones, racecars, trucks and various other ways to find and travel between distant towns.    Before the rift, most towns were spread too far apart for the average player to even find another town in one lifetime.  Bell towns were the major way to locate established and active towns, but even then, traveling to a bell town was difficult and usually one-directional adventure.   By the time you arrived at the bell town by walking, you would be too old to return to your home village.   Only veteran players with zoom would have the confidence and world knowledge to frequently travel between neighboring villages.   The Coming Together update tried to force interactions between different villages by spawning Eves much much much closer together, but the resulting heavy competition between Eves and established villages resulted in way too many "interesting dynamics" and feral eve attacks.   

Ideally, we need villages to be far enough apart to develop independently, but close enough together to allow interactions during the later stages, once long distance travel becomes viable.  And we also need some reason to actually try to interact with our neighbors instead of just keeping to our home village.   That was supposed to be the goal of the Family Specializations update, but biome restrictions did not have the intended effect on player interactions.  It didn't encourage real trade between villages and it made all villages too interdependent.  I think a big part of the problem is that water/rubber/oil should NOT be the primary trade goods.   Those materials are too precious and too vital to survival.   If each village was BETTER at doing something than the other villages, it would produce a surplus that could be traded to neighboring villages for mutual profit.   But if you didn't have a neighbor to trade with, you could still do it yourself by working extra hard.   This would make trade for certain items a better alternative than doing everything yourself. 

....

I think part of the problem is related to how crafting works in this game - instantaneous crafting does not encourage trade specialization with a village or between neighboring villages. The majority of the time involved in producing complex technology and other high-value items is tied up in resource collection.   Actual processing of the raw materials is usually immediate and not locked behind skill level or infrastructure requirements.   Which means that, as long as you have access to the raw materials, it is always faster to do it yourself than to go ask your neighboring village to trade you for the finished product.  And if you just need raw materials, it is better to go gather them yourself rather than trade with your neighbor for raw materials that you could have gathered yourself in half the time.   If the raw goods are hard to gather, your neighbor probably won't have an excess of that material to trade anyways, so it is a waste of time to even go there to ask.

Theft and war between neighboring villages is equally pointless.     The world is infinite and rich.    Conflict between villages is dangerous.    Even if we were not dependent on other towns for our own survival and our future lives, there would be little benefit in attacking random people to get their stuff.   Some players would inevitably do it, of course, but it would be short-sighted and stupid choice compared with normal resource gathering.   Again, the game would need to be changed further to make direct competition between villages interesting or beneficial.   Scavenging from dead towns is easy and profitable, but that's another reason why villages shouldn't be TOO close together.   A lot of the interesting development choices are lost when you get a bunch of high tech stuff early on.

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#19 2021-03-08 17:16:44

Bellium
Member
Registered: 2021-01-02
Posts: 25

Re: Having your own family

This just sounds like Minecraft factions but worse lol

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#20 2021-03-08 17:40:18

Bellium
Member
Registered: 2021-01-02
Posts: 25

Re: Having your own family

Also this just opens up a whole new griefing option, spawn in a town at low hours as the only female and starve off all your kids, assuming there are three fams on the three servers boom, you've just locked out 1/3 of a server like that. And if you've been paying attention, as of late towns rarely die of natural causes, just spawning in as an Eve in your old fam is a pretty cheap way to solve the issue of fams dying off due to lack of players, and it will be happening a lot more often due to how split up fams will be in this (fams will probably spend more time dead then alive if current gameplay is anything to go off).

If people in a town are competent enough to yum, you probably won't even need that many cooks, every recourse is infinite apart from oil (in a practical sense of being abundant and close by) so there's really no need to kill other people, unless you're gonna take over their town because it's got lots of oil, but then if nothing I made in that family is there why would I care about it? There's no difference between staying with them or killing them off and moving to the next server, it's a clean slate either way. Genuinely, once a town has oil and diesel well I've never seen them die off from starvation or lack of water, maybe I'm not playing enough, or maybe it just doesn't happen. All this seems like is a way for griefers and people who don't grasp how important it is to keep a fam alive to ruin everyone else's fun.

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#21 2021-03-08 18:01:48

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,452

Re: Having your own family

There's no reason to interact with other civilisations in a meaningful way except race restriction who was added for this purpose (poorly), so it doesnt matter that there's cars or roads or wathever.

Even if each villages would have their "crafting specialty" like you're proposing, if you dont have your own family you're just going to get born in the other family craft a bunch of their special stuff and horsecart/truck everything to every other village, so interesting...

It would be basically the same as now where you spawn as black and give every other village sulfur or spawn as brown and ditribute rubber to everyone, it's boring.

"The world is infinite and rich." Yes exactly that's one of the main issues, family well and iron homeland was added to counteract this but it's a broken system and it doesn't give the impression that things are limited anyway, also new families keep respawning in an infinite cycle when another one dies so it's pointless.

If we want interesting interactions between civilisations you need to have your own family otherwise you run into the issues mentionned above and you also need a reason for it.

Managing the ressources in a non infinite world is a big reason enough, if you're family has no iron anymore and the only place there is tools or iron is the other village then you will interact with them in one way or another otherwise your family dies.

But if it's only about having the most ressources in your village then every game is going to be about murdering the other family to get their ressources, so there should also be an advantage to having multiple civilisations alive, but not a forced race restriction like currently.

Not going to go into more detail in that post but basically something along the lines of browns are immune to mosquitos, blacks are immune to "sand storms" and gingers/inuits are immune to "blizzard", sand storms and blizzard would be similar to mosquitoes but for their respective biomes, it would be extremly dangerous to get ressources from a special biome because of these but still possible, so then you have the choice of taking the risk and most likely dying in an unfamiliar biome or trading with the local civilisation from that biome one of your precious since limited ressource (iron, water, wathever else) for the biome specific ressource (latex, sulfur etc).

So there would be both advantages and disadvantages of having multiple families alive in a world.

Bellium wrote:

...

I already mentionned the issue of griefing in one of the post above but basically if you are locked to a family so is a griefer and if enough members of a family find out a griefer and curse that griefer would be banned from the family and therefor banned from the server.

Also mentionned the issue of low pow and if a family dies due to low pop it wouldnt count and the family wouldnt die.

And yes world shouldnt be infinite so there isn't infinite oil or other precious ressources.

Last edited by Dodge (2021-03-08 18:08:14)

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#22 2021-03-08 18:50:38

Bellium
Member
Registered: 2021-01-02
Posts: 25

Re: Having your own family

Dodge wrote:

I already mentionned the issue of griefing in one of the post above but basically if you are locked to a family so is a griefer and if enough members of a family find out a griefer and curse that griefer would be banned from the family and therefor banned from the server.

Also mentionned the issue of low pow and if a family dies due to low pop it wouldnt count and the family wouldnt die.

And yes world shouldnt be infinite so there isn't infinite oil or other precious ressources.


All it takes is one person to grief at the right time and the fam is dead, and so is the chance of everyone else playing on that server, just swoop in at a time with low population, and have a go at it when you're the last female left.

And like I said before, it's a cheap experience if you fam just materializes back into existence if they do die out through "non-natural means" but it's a better system then what we got so eh.

And the world not being infinite has it's drawbacks and benefits, but realistically how are you planning to pull this off? Non-infinite oil (through exploring) just means the server has an inevitable death date, killing off and stealing from other families is just drawing out the process. And recourses being infinite in a small area is just how the game is I feel, the only way to avoid it is by making everything spawn less often in specialty biombs, but I feel like it will mostly achieve is make the place feel more barren.

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#23 2021-03-08 19:28:13

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,419

Re: Having your own family

Hate to break it to you, Dodge, but even in a finite world with locked families, I would probably help other families to survive, because I do find that to be interesting game-play and I like to support other players.   

Being kind to others is more rewarding than stealing or attacking them.  I like that OHOL is a game that is focused on working together to build something bigger than yourself.   I like the multi-generational aspect of the game and the idea that you can't keep a family alive all by yourself.   You must work with others, teach your kids, and help new players become better at the game so they can be productive villagers.

I would be interested in seeing more "dynamic" interactions between villages, but I am not really that interested in new mechanics that force direct competition and fighting between villages to survive.   That kind of game-play can be found in many multi-player strategy games, done much better than it could be in OHOL.  This game IS primarily a farming and crafting simulator with some parenting and village management tossed in.   It doesn't need to be a war game too.   In my opinion, the game was at its best back when we could start a new village and grow it without needing any close neighbors.   And it would have been even better if we could return to the villages that we enjoyed in past lives to check on how they had progressed in our absence and continue past projects.   

This game has been through so many different versions, with both minor and major changes over the last two years of development.  It has improved in many ways, like with the addition of many stackable items, better transportation options, and various tech advances.   But at a core level, I feel like it hasn't really moved in the right direction.  Too many artificial limitations, not enough focus on game-balance, and a lot of dead content.

A radical change might be necessary to shake things up and establish a new meta.  But I don't think a return to the Rift is what OHOL needs to be a better game.  We already tried that.    The arc system was very "gamey" and immersion-breaking.  And I hated how you never knew if the arc was going to last for five hours or five days, so half the time, you were expecting the world to end at any moment because some family you weren't even a part of just died.  It pretty much sucked and I am not the only one who felt that way.

...

That being said, I do think there is merit in considering some kind of finite world space.  A lot of games are designed to take place on an island or with geographic barriers, like infinite desert, tundra, or mountains, that restrict endless exploration.   From a game balance perspective, this makes a lot of sense because it is easier to figure out resource allocation and scarcity in a finite world.    And it also allows you to create geographically distinct regions, world maps, and unique landmarks so the players can navigate around a large map more easily.   I think there would be many benefits to adding geographical constraints to OHOL's infinite world.

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#24 2021-03-08 19:46:31

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,452

Re: Having your own family

Bellium wrote:

...

Ok let's say someone is griefing to kill their own family even it that makes themselves unable to join the server, the only type of griefing that would really work is murder and specifically murdering the last female of a lineage all the other methods like destroying stuff is still possible but it's much slower and if you get caught you will get cursed and banned.

Currently we have the posse system so they would have to convince other members of the family to kill the last female, really doubt that they would accept...

I'm not saying it wouldn't be impossible they could make a group on discord at least 3-4 be part of the same family and log at the same time when there is low pop then posse and kill last female, congratulations they have sucessfully forbiden their own access to that server, i understand that they are griefers and dont care about that but it still means they wouldnt be able to join the server and grief the other families, yes they could buy another account and join to kill the other family but seems very elaborate and time consuming, not impossible though so this could be fixed by other means, yes cheap means like murder in the same family dont count but im not a fan of these type of solutions there's probably something else but anyway point is that griefing would be less of an issue than currently.

Regarding the point of non infinite ressources, yes they shouldnt be infinite, in our world on our planet oil is not infinite, coal, trees etc are not either so how do we still manage to do it, that's the interesting part, that's why we manage our ressources, that's why we advanced in tech, hunting and gathering wasnt enough so we developped agriculture, coal wasnt enough for our electrical needs so we discovered nuclear energy and currently we are attempting to transition to more durable sources of energy and even maybe fusion energy at some point, who knows what advancements we will make with what we have, gold and other precious metals from space mining perhaps in some distant future.

Basically the progress in tech would go beyond oil in the game and the challenging part would be to go trough these steps in tech with the limited ressources we have while at the same time dealing with the social aspect of sharing these ressources with other civlisations.

DestinyCall wrote:

...

That's your choice if you want to help other families regardless of any situation happening but keep in mind that depending on the circumstances it might doom your own family and others will think about their own before thinking about the survival of a family that isnt theirs.

It's funny that you find the arc system "gamey" since it's what our world basically is, if every human on earth disappears then nobody else will be able to "spawn" has a human anymore and that arc is over, at least until millions of years later where maybe and only maybe the same path of evolution occurs and humans as we know them or something similar would exist again.

"This game IS primarily a farming and crafting simulator with some parenting and village management tossed in."

Yeah it's most likely where most our disagreements occur, if that's your view that's fine but that's not mine and not Jason's view either, he wants to make a game that would be like a bird's view (dont remember exact term) of human's history and civilisations with all their interactions and every situations thinkable happening, at least as much as possible , but not just a game where you farm, craft and raise some potato babies.

Last edited by Dodge (2021-03-08 19:59:41)

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#25 2021-03-08 21:58:01

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,419

Re: Having your own family

Dodge wrote:

It's funny that you find the arc system "gamey" since it's what our world basically is, if every human on earth disappears then nobody else will be able to "spawn" has a human anymore and that arc is over, at least until millions of years later where maybe and only maybe the same path of evolution occurs and humans as we know them or something similar would exist again.

Being trapped in a small box with a bunch of other players, fighting over limited resources until one group "wins" by being the last man standing, battle royale style, and the box resets so the next arc can begin ... you are right, that is exactly how it works in the real world.  I don't know why I said it was gamey.

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