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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 2020-11-22 00:38:53

Gogo
Banned
Registered: 2019-10-11
Posts: 589

Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

Because:

1. people are coming to help Eve's with advanced stuff, this 'magic' is reducing Eve camp experience
2. there's no value in keeping relations between towns. stones will tell you if they're alive
3. there's little value in your own family. stones will guide you to others, you don't need to pass knowledge about roads, or make maps etc.

I would say reduce time to make bell towers (and their range), also reduce time to learn language, maybe it would be fun to learn 50% of foreign language fast and then rest slowly, so we will be able to communicate on basic level, but others will speak with foreign manners.

Last edited by Gogo (2020-11-22 00:43:27)

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#2 2020-11-22 01:08:07

cordy
Member
Registered: 2019-09-19
Posts: 155

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

???

how would vanilla users find other specialty fams to get latex, etc if there are no way stones?

just go east or west and hope for the best? scouring north and south in the 200 tile homeband?

???


-

Last edited by cordy (2020-11-22 01:19:22)

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#3 2020-11-22 01:13:32

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,542

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

You think that an expert waystone is needed to find an Eve camp in a truck Gogo?  I seriously doubt it.  People find dead towns in trucks after all, and I think that Krauts looted Loves old town for oil/kerosene on Friday, and they had basically no choice but to do so.  The expert waystone didn't help.  As a black I looted three tires from a dead jungle camp in a truck when there were no tans alive (or in Donkeytown) on Wednesday.

Also Gogo, if your town is on a pump or has a dry deep well, and, for example, jungles die out (it happened on Wednesday AND Friday), what choice does anyone have but to use a truck or horsecart to find the new Eve and their children?  RainieDash did it on stream in vanilla on Friday, and the jungle family was like generation 3 or 4.

Additionally, and more importantly, this game is not in a position to scale to maximum server population even on bs2... not for a sustainable player base.  It wouldn't scale to a maximum sustainable player population on server1 also, where veteran players are less likely to play.  Removing expert waystones (with race restrictions in place), would make it so that the game has even more problems scaling, and make it so that water issues would become even worse.

With respect to 2., Hetuw mod can tell people if families are alive.

Cordy has a point about vanilla users.

Expert waystones are desirable (so long as race restrictions exist).

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-11-22 01:15:30)


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#4 2020-11-22 01:27:54

Gogo
Banned
Registered: 2019-10-11
Posts: 589

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

Spoonwood wrote:

You think that an expert waystone is needed to find an Eve camp in a truck Gogo?  I seriously doubt it.

Good! So there's no need for waystones anyway. Jason, pls get rid of all magic from game.

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#5 2020-11-22 01:59:54

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,542

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

Gogo wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:

You think that an expert waystone is needed to find an Eve camp in a truck Gogo?  I seriously doubt it.

Good! So there's no need for waystones anyway. Jason, pls get rid of all magic from game.

Well if you believe me that it's possible to do so, then someone can throw loom clothes at an Eve camp in a truck without expert waystones, and it doesn't solve the problem with 1., as you said:

Gogo wrote:

1. people are coming to help Eve's with advanced stuff, this 'magic' is reducing Eve camp experience

The magic is things getting transferred from dead camps via trucks.

Also, during an arc restart, *before* trucks exist, how would vanilla players find other towns?


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#6 2020-11-22 02:39:30

Gogo
Banned
Registered: 2019-10-11
Posts: 589

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

It's not magic, but small world.

What is annoying about waystones is that they point you to people who lives 3k east, when family who lives there should die sooner. It should be much harder to contact with them! Maps should decay so you must make copies, bell towers should have short range (shorter than 3k!). No waystones. Paved road should also decay. That would be better.

Last edited by Gogo (2020-11-22 02:42:00)

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#7 2020-11-22 02:41:48

Eve Troll
Member
Registered: 2020-07-07
Posts: 178

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

Play without a mod and try to find another family without waystones gogo. Im so sick of spoiled modded users thinking the game is balanced or unbalanced purely based on their experiences while using mods.

And we blame Jason for bad player retention...

How is he supposed to make the game better for vanilla users when 90% of his feedback comes from modded users.

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#8 2020-11-22 03:25:26

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 3,939

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

To be fair, I would play using the vanilla client if this game was playable without zoom.   

It is not.

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#9 2020-11-22 03:32:59

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 3,939

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

Personally, I think that biome restrictions should be removed.   Keep the geographic banding as it is.   Take out the magic waystones.   Let us be alone again.  Each life separated by long distances.

Then we can choose to settle where we like and it doesn't matter if the nearest neighboring village is 10,000 tiles away.  Each family would live and die on its own merits, unless someone went to a lot of effort to return.   We would be able to build big cities and small Eve camps at the same time and very far apart.

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#10 2020-11-22 06:11:13

FishRfriendsnotfood
Banned
Registered: 2018-06-17
Posts: 158

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

Why are you addressing Jason period.  Like he cares about this shit game.


I'm fish, deal with it or don't, idgaf

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#11 2020-11-22 09:24:39

DiscardedSlinky
DubiousSlinker
From: Discord
Registered: 2019-05-06
Posts: 567

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

Shit idea


I'm Slinky. I /blush. I also don't read essays.

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#12 2020-11-22 11:48:08

Eve Troll
Member
Registered: 2020-07-07
Posts: 178

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

Considering this is Jason's most successful game in his 15 or something years of game developing i imagine he cares quite a bit. Caring about what we think is another story.

I agree biome restrictions and such are bad and self dependent civs were way more interesting. That being said jason has dug himself so far down this rabbit hole and is so far in denial of it i doubt he will even try to climb out, even if he knows it was a mistake.

But to hark back to my point about mod users. I agree the game is nearly unplayable without zoom. But because we play with zoom, and a ton of other features, jason doesnt change things. Because we create statistics that make jason think everything is fine/balanced and because we make results that would be impossible for vanilla users. Its just as much our fault as it is is jason's for getting disconnected with vanilla players. We have no right to say the game is balanced or imbalanced when we use mods like awbz or hetuw. You can literally chat with other players in real time with no character limit in hetuw. Basically removing one of the biggest challenges in the entire game.

Last edited by Eve Troll (2020-11-22 11:50:42)

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#13 2020-11-22 13:49:04

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,542

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

Eve Troll wrote:

You can literally chat with other players in real time with no character limit in hetuw. Basically removing one of the biggest challenges in the entire game.

So I played 2HOL yesterday, and they never changed the chat limit.  I would run out of characters and have to edit or have those weird disjointed messages.  I do think the chat aspect though is better most of the time once old enough now, since he increased the character limit.  Still, talking as a baby is the old 'N O N O T N E W'.  And often enough the players I feel there exists reason to talk to aren't Hetuw players, so I think the Hetuw 'removes' the chat limit a bit of an exaggeration, and I'm not sure if it's too challenging with the default client's current chat limit.  Then again, teaching one's slightly older sibling at 4 or 5 doesn't sound appealing at all, and would probably qualify as too hard.  I'm not sure that it's still bad enough that the character limit is something that causes people to lose or have less interest.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-11-22 15:59:28)


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#14 2020-11-22 14:46:02

Kilian
Member
Registered: 2019-02-03
Posts: 77

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

DestinyCall wrote:

To be fair, I would play using the vanilla client if this game was playable without zoom.   

It is not.

I am playing this game without any mods and it is very well playable without them. It just takes a few lives to adjust and to accept that one is not as productive as with using the keyboard, a feature provided by the hetuw-mod.

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#15 2020-11-22 16:04:33

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,542

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

Kilian wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:

To be fair, I would play using the vanilla client if this game was playable without zoom.   

It is not.

I am playing this game without any mods and it is very well playable without them. It just takes a few lives to adjust and to accept that one is not as productive as with using the keyboard, a feature provided by the hetuw-mod.

The lack of speed to me doesn't bother me so much.  I don't like the size of the display.  The screen feels like it jerks around when I move with the default size, but not so much a little bit further zoomed out.  I find it hard to see much in town/around.  Wild animals can sneak up on you easily or have to learn to listen for them (which I never picked up on).  The people who have said that the default display should be a little bit bigger have had a point.  I thought Coconut Fruit had a point that having a zoom from like default size to max 2x (or was it 3x) would work fairly well.

I'm not saying that I would use such a client, because I prefer some of the other non-speed related features of the Hetuw mod like the name and chat features.  Just that I find that default view a bit hard on the eyes when playing.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-11-22 16:05:58)


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#16 2020-11-24 05:24:00

NoTruePunk
Member
Registered: 2019-01-25
Posts: 234

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

You can still look on the Wondible map for coords, so metagaming would still happen. Metagaming isn't bad, it's just weird. The difficulty curve of the game basically requires it, without the handful of metagamers doing their work you'd all be like chickens running around with ur heads chopped off

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#17 2020-11-24 06:15:05

Eve Troll
Member
Registered: 2020-07-07
Posts: 178

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

NoTruePunk wrote:

You can still look on the Wondible map for coords, so metagaming would still happen. Metagaming isn't bad, it's just weird. The difficulty curve of the game basically requires it, without the handful of metagamers doing their work you'd all be like chickens running around with ur heads chopped off

Truer words have never been spoken. Probably the most depressing realities of the game though. If only it wasnt reliant on external resources to function properly.

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#18 2020-11-24 12:33:48

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,542

Re: Jason, get rid of expert waystones pls

DestinyCall wrote:

Personally, I think that biome restrictions should be removed.   Keep the geographic banding as it is.   Take out the magic waystones.   Let us be alone again.  Each life separated by long distances.

Then we can choose to settle where we like and it doesn't matter if the nearest neighboring village is 10,000 tiles away.  Each family would live and die on its own merits, unless someone went to a lot of effort to return.   We would be able to build big cities and small Eve camps at the same time and very far apart.

That wouldn't allow families to settle anywhere.  Geographic banding would keep families in their band areas.  At least I guess that's how it would work.

That said I agree.  Yesterday morning I saw the Spoons had died out, and it looked like bad luck on children for Jellisa Spoon: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=6760220  The game really could use a way to restart families or computer programs that play characters for a bit to keep families going.  After I saw the above I planned on helping out the new gingers, got born as a Hyun, and left to help them.  Some Batmans were playing at a new spot.  But others were migrating back to Mushroom Gorge.  Later in the day, I got born to an afk mom at the Batman camp, and my brother fed me.  He wanted to go where everyone else was.  He used the /leader command to navigate, but our leader was somewhere south (possibly what has been Hyun's town... BUT, if I recall correctly I was an early enough Hyun that it seems doubtful that they started it... might be wrong on this one easily though).  So, I took him back to Mushroom Gorge.  Had a nice life, overall, but the Batman camp was done as a Batman camp.  I also saw a new white family yesterday, went to find them, but they had resettled an old town also.  I ended up going back to Mushroom Gorge when Batmans were just about to die out, and Eve Ferrios literally walked into Mushroom Gorge before the last men in Batman family died out.  This morning I got up, saw there was a new Ginger lineage.  I ended up as a Hyun.  I walked north looking for the Gingers and found Batman's old camp with Ans living there.  It was only deep well stage, and they had re-settled.  Some kerosene and an engine in a vault, people moving around with a truck.

I will point out that under the old Eve spiral families did resettle a fair amount.  I remember the week where the water system changed from ponds into wells into springs into wells.  I specifically made it a point to not play in towns with a well cluster, and would /die to the new spring camps only.  I did have to do that a few times in a row as I recall, but I don't recall needing to do so like 8 or 10 times in a row, so that a fair proportion of families were "rebuilding human civilization from scratch" instead of "building on top of the remains of a civilization", seemed rather plausible to me.  It was somewhat balanced.  But, now things just aren't balanced in that respect.

Thinking about this I remember Kinrany's old post:

Kinrany wrote:

Parenting and civilization building are two separate activities. They are misaligned, one of them makes people quit, so everyone who haven't quit are doing the other one.

The game needs to remove the distinction between a lineage and a town. Caring about the lineage should be the same as caring about the town, and vice versa.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8722

I don't agree with him about suggested difficulty level (if I read him/her correctly), because I don't think such can scale and I don't believe it would work well for new players.  But, the distinction between a lineage and a town is rather huge these days.


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