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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 2020-09-21 01:16:08

GreatShawn
Member
From: Heaven of Communism
Registered: 2018-09-08
Posts: 367

Jason is ruining the game

right now there are still many controversial game design-wise decisions jason has made such as gene scores, race specific biomes, war, hungerwork, etc. many people disagree with them, however, i feel as if jason view these people as obsolete and ignores perhaps balancing the system. and now, just to fullfill his empty trailer promises he is adding more and more late-game technology that people will never likely reach due to all these underlying issues. i havent been very active in this community but i see when a game is about to go to shit. this is building a house with a weak foundation, you keep adding more and more fancy gadgets without even fortifying the base until one day the house collapses. In my dearest hopes i hope jason maybe add more technology for early game and resolve GAMEPLAY issues instead of content issues.

this is all purely my opinion, it is of course still up to jason to accept it or not.

Last edited by GreatShawn (2020-09-21 01:17:34)


Fun fact: I'm an asian kid.

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#2 2020-09-21 07:19:12

Arcurus
Member
Registered: 2020-04-23
Posts: 791

Re: Jason is ruining the game

Jason cannot do everything right. If he fixes game machanics, people call for more late tech content. If he puts in late tech content, people call for fixing game mechanics.

That said, yes gene score is mess, tried my best to give fixes to it. In short i think one solution would be to calculate the true genetic success of your life counting the next 100 generations or so and then compare it with the average players success, so that your gene score does only move up if you are better then the average.

Race biomes is a tricky thing. The purpose is that every race has different specialties, but the way it is implemented currently does not feel good.

With hungry work i for my part did not have much problems if you yum.

War hm, yes currently war is not possible and also there is no benefit. I guess most of the players would want that it stays like that, but that is also self creating, since players who like competition drop out if there is none. I for my part would be more in favor of a system that simulates humanity and therefore allows some kind of competition.

I would add in your list, that travel, boring early child play and iron / migration and especial the boring unlimited map needs fixing.

Also the only challenge currently is starvation (and some times bear griefers). Some more challenges like special weather which makes life more easy or harder some threatening animals like wolfs going to attack the sheeps or ilnesses if you eat bad food.

Last edited by Arcurus (2020-09-21 08:53:56)

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#3 2020-09-21 08:20:54

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,245

Re: Jason is ruining the game

I think he got frustrated of the game not being how he envisionned it to be so he implemented a bunch of stuff to artificially make it a certain way (homeland, race restriction etc) but it ended making the game even worse so now he invested all that time into these mechanics and doesn't want to hear anything about it.

For some reason he still thinks that it's possible to have meaningful trade and non forced interaction between civilisations while still having an infinite map where every biome is only a foot walk away from each other.

If you live in New York you wouldn't walk all the way to the south american jungle to get latex wouldn't you?

Trading roads would be made, villages in between would act as trading outposts, flying by plane would make sense etc you get the idea

But in the game for some reason he keeps wanting to make it this way hence why he has to add all these artificial mechanics to have a small glimpse of actual "trade".

Same reason he added the homeland and iron mechanic, since the world is infinite you have to artificially limit iron in weird ways also same issue as before since every biome is close to each other with no natural barriers watsoever like oceans then having multicultural villages are "bad" since current "trade" wouldn't work, but as you can see it it's like adding bad construction materials on an even worse foundation and keep pilling up on top of it.

So much more of these issues could be solved by simply having an actual world that makes sense but unfortunately he doesn't want to hear about it, probably justifying that it doesn't work because his tested version of a limited map aka the rift didn't work, but obviously if you make a small box and put players in it, it will turn into chaos.

Also he has this way of turning every idea into something completely different and then say "it doesn't work" like for example if you take the example above of having a limited map with biomes far appart and natural barriers, he will say "So you're saying that the issue is that biomes are too close together".

Then he will keep the same infinite map not add any natural barriers and just space out the biomes a bit more because it's much more easier to do and then when inevitably it doesn't create the expected outcome will say that it doesn't work and either scrap the idea or try to patch it up in a weird way.

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#4 2020-09-21 08:50:02

Arcurus
Member
Registered: 2020-04-23
Posts: 791

Re: Jason is ruining the game

Dodge wrote:

I think he got frustrated of the game not being how he envisionned it to be so he implemented a bunch of stuff to artificially make it a certain way (homeland, race restriction etc) but it ended making the game even worse so now he invested all that time into these mechanics and doesn't want to hear anything about it.

For some reason he still thinks that it's possible to have meaningful trade and non forced interaction between civilisations while still having an infinite map where every biome is only a foot walk away from each other.

If you live in New York you wouldn't walk all the way to the south american jungle to get latex wouldn't you?

Trading roads would be made, villages in between would act as trading outposts, flying by plane would make sense etc you get the idea

But in the game for some reason he keeps wanting to make it this way hence why he has to add all these artificial mechanics to have a small glimpse of actual "trade".

Same reason he added the homeland and iron mechanic, since the world is infinite you have to artificially limit iron in weird ways also same issue as before since every biome is close to each other with no natural barriers watsoever like oceans then having multicultural villages are "bad" since current "trade" wouldn't work, but as you can see it it's like adding bad construction materials on an even worse foundation and keep pilling up on top of it.

So much more of these issues could be solved by simply having an actual world that makes sense but unfortunately he doesn't want to hear about it, probably justifying that it doesn't work because his tested version of a limited map aka the rift didn't work, but obviously if you make a small box and put players in it, it will turn into chaos.

Also he has this way of turning every idea into something completely different and then say "it doesn't work" like for example if you take the example above of having a limited map with biomes far appart and natural barriers, he will say "So you're saying that the issue is that biomes are too close together".

Then he will keep the same infinite map not add any natural barriers and just space out the biomes a bit more because it's much more easier to do and then when inevitably it doesn't create the expected outcome will say that it doesn't work and either scrap the idea or try to patch it up in a weird way.


Quite good analysis!

I think the main problem here is how the map is (all feels the same, boring and unlimited no natural restrictions like mountains or rivers) and how travel / transportation works (horse wagon is super powerful and no challenge to travel). Also a problem is, that for many tasks you need to do in a biome, you dont need to stay there. So you can just go there pick all and leave.

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#5 2020-09-21 09:31:01

JonySky
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From: Catalunya
Registered: 2018-05-13
Posts: 625
Website

Re: Jason is ruining the game

Arcurus wrote:

Jason cannot do everything right. If he fixes game machanics, people call for more late tech content. If he puts in late tech content, people call for fixing game mechanics.

Exactly what mechanics do you mean?
To the mechanics of posse? or to the mechanics of the gang ?? to the mechanics of iron perhaps? or the mechanics of the homeland? Great mechanics! (sarcasm mode)

OHOL players don't complain that Jason is working on new mechanics, they complain that the new mechanics being implemented are sloppy, magical and illogical.


With the objects the problem is the same ... (hey guys we have a new racing car !!! but you are going to continue cooking in an adobe oven) this has no logic
(For this reason we have new players trying to hunt cows with an arrow)

Anyway, the OHOL problem is not in the mechanics, it is not in the objects and it is not on the map either ... the big problem it is in the game engine and I doubt very much that Jason is willing to change it

A loooong time ago I realized that this game is doomed to continue the same as it has been up to now ... specifically, I told myself when talking about shared transport ... apparently the game's engine does not allow it ...
Think about it, you are forced to move through an infinite map to obtain resources, or... you are forced to move your whole family when the water runs out if you want to survive... or just start trading together with several people!.... but you cannot transport people ...
This is basic for a multiplayer game of building civilizations and families!


With rivers and seas, and maritime transport for exactly the same ... the game's engine does not allow it

another sign that the game engine is poor ... the exaggerated lag and Rubber Banding that the servers have had these days when they were filled with 100 players ... this is another sign that ohol is an improvised game that has been developed as an experiment without any clear objective
the netcode is not ready for the game we want (and I'm sure Jason knows this problem)


All this makes me wonder why the zoom without empty borders on the sides has not been implemented correctly ??? Could it be that the game engine does not allow it?
because the squares (tiles) cannot be divided by 2 or by 4 so that there is not so much disorder? Could it be that the game engine does not allow it?

and no, these are not the only signs of this problem
there are many more! ... lack of challenges, lack of planning, lack of new systems such as climatology, temperature, etc ...,lack of dynamic events, natural disasters, lack of an anti-cheat system, lack of a toxic player reporting system, lack of an options menu or a more intuitive hub, ... they are also serious problems that do not I think they are never reviewed


All this is solved with hard work and wanting to take OHOL to another level
(It is not solved with magical patches and forced and sloppy mechanics)... but ...
Hey we have a new racing car!!!! just what the game needs right now !!!

Last edited by JonySky (2020-09-21 14:15:25)

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#6 2020-09-21 12:31:41

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,548

Re: Jason is ruining the game

Arcurus wrote:

Race biomes is a tricky thing. The purpose is that every race has different specialties, but the way it is implemented currently does not feel good.

It was supposed to be, and got promoted as, *family* specialty.  That could make sense for something.  Not for the dropsy, which feels like ass, but possibly for some other things.  It could make sense that some people figured out/knew how to extract oil from the ground while others did not.  And that knowledge got passed along familal lines.

It is not family specialty though.

Arcurus wrote:

With hungry work i for my part did not have much problems if you yum.

Hungry work is annoying.  Especially with it always being 10 pips, since one has to stop rather frequently to eat.  I've always yummed, and it's never been that I couldn't work around hungry work.  But, it's still been annoying. 

One of the virtues of the game has been how quickly things could get done, like I use to enjoy watching how fast some Twitch streamers were.  That gets hampered by things like hungry work.  And uniformly 10 pips doesn't make much sense, since mining iron isn't the same as chopping up a cypress tree.

2HOL doesn't have hungry work.  I don't know of a single person who complains at all, because it doesn't, or feels disinclined to play, because of the lack of hungry work.  It's the other way around.  People get annoyed by hungry work, and feel disinclined to play OHOL, because of it.


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#7 2020-09-21 12:50:51

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,548

Re: Jason is ruining the game

Dodge wrote:

...

One reason why trade won't happen, is because of families have a language barrier.  Finding a translator race in addition to others would take far too much time. 

Also, because the same players live in multiple towns in a day.  In the real world, we trade, because of a sense of permanence.  People trade labor for money, because money has a permanent value that they can use later, and when money has less value due to inflation, I think trading becomes hindered.  There is no sense of permanence in the game, because it's short, and when you log back in, you probably end up in the other family.  So, if you traded, in a way it would just be like sending resources to your future self.  And then there's no reason to negotiate, because you won't increase the value of what you can get by getting a better deal.

Additionally, it isn't like anyone owns sulfur, palm oil, latex, or a tarry spot.  Trading individually thus makes no sense, because individuals don't trade things they don't own.  And there is no sense of property among families.  And won't be, because the game is too transitory.  Trading among nations happens, because in some sense they own something, and the things they own have permanent, not transitory, value.

Moreover, trading in the real world is messy.  Negotiations.  Not revealing what you're willing to give in the hopes of a better deal.  Trying to psychologically trick people even.  Dissimulation.  The game prizes efficiency.  As I've seen from watching streams, rather than trading palm kernels or horses, it's more efficient to just move them outside of the dropsy biomes. 

The game becoming more inefficient would just make things more frustrating on new players, as the recent sale demonstrated.  I mean, this past weekend, before he changed it, almost surely was more frustrating for new players than when it initially got released to Steam or when it first got released.  And it would frustrate veterans trying to get things done, since the game already has a short time frame for doing projects.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-09-21 12:57:17)


Danish Clinch.

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