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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 2020-01-12 08:21:19

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Solution for dying lineages during updates.

When an update happens existing characters freeze and their position is saved, after the update the first players to login spawn as the already existing charachters (same position, same name, same everything).

Until everyone spawns as existing characters then babies pop out like usual.

Problem: Until everyone spawned as an existing character you will see people just standing around behing freezed (or they could be hidden and pop out like Eves do when someone logs in).

Note: Players with under x hours aka new players could only spawn as babies and not replace existing characters to avoid confusion.

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#2 2020-01-12 12:45:41

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Solution for dying lineages during updates.

Dodge wrote:

Problem: Until everyone spawned as an existing character you will see people just standing around behing freezed

Wouldn't there exist cases where someone didn't start playing again after the update?  For an hour?  For a few hours?  If they ever play again?

If players were hidden (or if they were frozen), and pop out like Eves do, then every family member but one could unfreeze and live until they die.  The one family member could then pop out later, and then a lineage is no longer a group of people who collaborated across time (see 2nd link below for why I describe a lineage this way).

You really think lineage dying during updates is a problem to Jason, Dodge?

See here: https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLifeData7/issues/562

and here: https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLifeData7/issues/565

Given such as a problem, the concept of freezing and unfreezing character is still strange to me.  Freezing characters seems complicated to me, since it would have to operate on all in-game characters.  I would believe it much simpler to just have players pop out like an Eve and have an ancestor from their previous lineage.  And a mechanic which puts a player into the same spot still exists under some conditions.  And that player can get directed anywhere on the map apparently, since even a person who died at 60 as an Eve, on a low pop server, can pop out near a child who has no mother who can breastfeed.

Jason's insistence that a lineage means a group of people who directly collaborates across time doesn't make a lick of sense.  It's not realistic.  After all, there exist many people who didn't know their father.  Sometimes because of the father, but sometimes because of the mother.  And a lineage exists as soon as a baby pops out from an Eve.  There is no collaboration when that happens, and in some cases, no collaboration between mother and child at other times.  Eves running to spots between the Steam release and the temperature overhaul not keeping children until they were ready.  People not keeping children during The Rift.  And in some cases there is no collaboration between child and mother, children using /die and runner babies.

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#3 2020-01-12 13:02:49

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Solution for dying lineages during updates.

Spoonwood wrote:
Dodge wrote:

Problem: Until everyone spawned as an existing character you will see people just standing around behing freezed

Wouldn't there exist cases where someone didn't start playing again after the update?  For an hour?  For a few hours?  If they ever play again?

No because it wouldn't be necessarly the same person spawning as their old character, basically first players to login spawn as "old" characters until all of them are unfreezed and then new logins are babies like usual.

So you couldn't have characters that stay freezed forever, also it would be pretty fast until all old characters are unfreezed.

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#4 2020-01-12 13:32:22

Gogo
Banned
Registered: 2019-10-11
Posts: 589

Re: Solution for dying lineages during updates.

But why lineages dying during updates?

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#5 2020-01-12 13:38:31

Starknight_One
Member
Registered: 2018-10-15
Posts: 345

Re: Solution for dying lineages during updates.

Dodge wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
Dodge wrote:

Problem: Until everyone spawned as an existing character you will see people just standing around behing freezed

Wouldn't there exist cases where someone didn't start playing again after the update?  For an hour?  For a few hours?  If they ever play again?

No because it wouldn't be necessarly the same person spawning as their old character, basically first players to login spawn as "old" characters until all of them are unfreezed and then new logins are babies like usual.

So you couldn't have characters that stay freezed forever, also it would be pretty fast until all old characters are unfreezed.

... was going to ask what happens when you respawn in a griefers body... but I already know the answer. All it would take is one person who was there before, and you suddenly have a bunch of curses. Explaining that you weren't the griefer wouldn't work, because of course the griefer would say that they weren't the same person. So I think this idea needs some rethinking.

Most of the problems we have come from lack of accountability. There's no permanent punishment for people who destroy the enjoyment of others, unlike other MMOs, where going against the community standards can get you banned. This is part of the reason why I think we need a social system in-game, to take the place of the various interactions that happen which we simply don't have the ability to do in-game. It wouldn't even need to be able to ban people, just mark them so you know "This person has done bad things in my presence before" or "This person is someone I approve of based on past interactions". That would give you some idea of who you need to keep an eye on, or in whom you can place your trust.

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#6 2020-01-12 14:39:04

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Solution for dying lineages during updates.

Dodge wrote:

No because it wouldn't be necessarly the same person spawning as their old character, basically first players to login spawn as "old" characters until all of them are unfreezed and then new logins are babies like usual.

So you couldn't have characters that stay freezed forever, also it would be pretty fast until all old characters are unfreezed.

So, a character could then get possessed by a different spirit after an update.  Your idea sounds like it would result in a player not even getting the opportunity to play one life in one hour.  Someone, for example, might play for 24 minutes, get kicked out of playing by the update, and that's it since their character got possessed by some other spirit.  Do you think your idea can still work Dodge?

Starknight_One wrote:

Most of the problems we have come from lack of accountability. There's no permanent punishment for people who destroy the enjoyment of others, unlike other MMOs, where going against the community standards can get you banned. This is part of the reason why I think we need a social system in-game, to take the place of the various interactions that happen which we simply don't have the ability to do in-game. It wouldn't even need to be able to ban people, just mark them so you know "This person has done bad things in my presence before" or "This person is someone I approve of based on past interactions". That would give you some idea of who you need to keep an eye on, or in whom you can place your trust.

I agree.

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#7 2020-01-12 15:08:37

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Solution for dying lineages during updates.

Spoonwood wrote:
Dodge wrote:

No because it wouldn't be necessarly the same person spawning as their old character, basically first players to login spawn as "old" characters until all of them are unfreezed and then new logins are babies like usual.

So you couldn't have characters that stay freezed forever, also it would be pretty fast until all old characters are unfreezed.

So, a character could then get possessed by a different spirit after an update.  Your idea sounds like it would result in a player not even getting the opportunity to play one life in one hour.  Someone, for example, might play for 24 minutes, get kicked out of playing by the update, and that's it since their character got possessed by some other spirit.  Do you think your idea can still work Dodge?

Yeah it's an exceptionnal case since it happens only once per week but i actually thought about another idea.

Just before the update (like 30 minutes or so before) the server takes a "picture" of everything (placement of every character, object etc.

The players continue to live their life until update kicks in like currently, but on the restart it starts from when the picture was taken, so players dont get abrubtly cut off in their gameplay but at the same time update doesn't kill lineages since you start from the save point.

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#8 2020-01-12 17:38:55

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Solution for dying lineages during updates.

Dodge wrote:

The players continue to live their life until update kicks in like currently, but on the restart it starts from when the picture was taken, so players dont get abrubtly cut off in their gameplay but at the same time update doesn't kill lineages since you start from the save point.

Suppose that a player gets born at time 18:00.  The update happens at time 18:20.  The player lives until 19:00.  Then the player pops back into the spot at 18:20, but the time is 20:00.  The player still has the same in-game name.  Thus, the character bifuricates into two different entities.  Mercury Sun has two deaths on the family tree.  Venus Sun might also have two different sets of descendants.

Venus Sun might have two different sets of descendants.  But, how could Mercury Sun have two deaths in this game?

Do you see any problems that could arise if Eves could have ancestors?

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#9 2020-01-12 18:00:25

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Solution for dying lineages during updates.

What?

It's pretty straight forward, current players can continue their game beyond the saving point but everything they do doesn't count, then update happens and the next batch of palyers takes the place of the saved characters.

Also im not sure you understand but it's not the same player that will reincarnate the same character most likely another random player will take it's place, otherwise if someone doesn't log back in there could be characters stuck forever.

Regarding lineages and the family tree as mentionned above everything after the save point doesn't count since the update is about to happen, so it's the replacing players that will decide of the fate of their incarnated characters.

Similar to a relay race where you pass the baton to the next runner.

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#10 2020-01-12 18:11:00

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,956

Re: Solution for dying lineages during updates.

Dodge, can you detail what individuals family trees will look like for your proposal (to something which again, is NOT a problem, according to Mr. Rohrer)?

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#11 2020-01-12 18:12:53

Gogo
Banned
Registered: 2019-10-11
Posts: 589

Re: Solution for dying lineages during updates.

Maybe a sleep for characters, everyone will fall asleep and be immortal till someone will spawn into them.

Last edited by Gogo (2020-01-12 18:13:17)

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#12 2020-01-12 18:24:15

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,451

Re: Solution for dying lineages during updates.

Yes sleep = freeze

Family tree will count the players that take the relay and not the ones before the update.

Anyway sounds good i'll post it on github

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