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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 2020-04-17 22:30:20

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,676

Update: Food Fixes

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Thanks to input from forum members Twisted, Miskas, and Fug, all food values have been re-examined and rebalanced based on how hard they are to make and what input resources are required.  We might see a perfectly balanced food system as being flat and boring, because all foods would be equal in terms of efficiency, so this update does not aim for that kind perfect balance.

The YUM system is meant to make the less-efficient foods still worth eating from time to time, and YUM has been changed so that your chain never breaks.  Your bonus grows every time you eat a new food, and you get that bonus each time you eat a new food, but eating a MEH food simply skips applying the current bonus, instead of setting your bonus back to zero.  This means you can no longer cycle a small set of foods to farm a small bonus over and over, but it also means that during tense times, you won't destroy your YUM progress when you have to eat a MEH food out of desperation.  This will make growing a large YUM bonus quite a bit easier, and we'll have to see if it swamps the rest of the food system.  If so, there's a cap setting (limiting the bonus from growing to high) that I can apply as needed.

But up until now, YUM hasn't been needed for survival anyway.  I'm in the process of changing that.

Last week, I cut all food values in half as an experiment, based on observations of massive food surpluses in most late-stage villages.  People had also been depending almost exclusively on low-efficiency foods for survival, since massive surpluses made efficiency unnecessary.  By the end of this week, food behavior in the game has indeed changed a bit in reaction to these reduced food values, with players making more high-efficiency foods---there was quite a bit of panic and starvation earlier in the week, of course.

The most interesting thing about scaling food values was how it reduced the value of low-tier foods.  The problem with a uniform scale factor is that it effects high-tier foods too (a berry went from 3 to 1.5, and a feast plate went from 40 to 20).  This made the game universally harder, regardless of which foods were eaten, which wasn't exactly the goal.  The goal was to make the high-tier foods more necessary for late-stage villages.

This week, a new gradual scaling system is in place:  as the generations wear on for a given family, a growing value is subtracted from all food values.  This value reaches a maximum of 5 after about 30 generations, and if subtracting the value would make a food 0 or negative, the food is pegged at 1.  So a berry would eventually be worth 1, while a feast plate would eventually be worth 35.  A cooked rabbit would drop from 10 down to 5.  You can see how this kind of adjustment affects low-value foods much more than high-value foods, in relative terms.  It is a bit like the opposite of the eating bonus, which buffs low-value foods much more than high-value foods, relatively speaking.

Beyond food changes, there are a bunch of new stacks, and an arrow pointing toward visitors that knock at your gate.  You also get better labels above the heads of the people that you are navigating toward, helping you find them in a crowd.

A few exploits have also been fixed.

If you're die-cycling to find your friends (living less than 20 minutes in your last life), you don't count toward the posse size of a posse that you join.  This limitation already applied to twins, but the goal is to prevent a group of friends from ganging up on people.

Abandoned outposts (non-primary homelands) untap springs and iron deposits when they expire, allowing new Eves to settle there later, and preventing one player from making loads of spurious outpost homelands to block iron and water opportunities in a large area.

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#2 2020-04-17 22:45:25

voy178
Member
Registered: 2018-08-18
Posts: 290

Re: Update: Food Fixes

Thanks for the stacks.

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#3 2020-04-17 23:03:55

sigmen4020
Member
Registered: 2019-01-05
Posts: 773

Re: Update: Food Fixes

A mango tree in the savanna? What is this sorcery?


All hail the resurgence of tortilla chips!!

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#4 2020-04-17 23:09:13

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 2,900

Re: Update: Food Fixes

jasonrohrer wrote:

But up until now, YUM hasn't been needed for survival anyway.  I'm in the process of changing that.

1. There isn't survival anyways ulitamtely.  All players die, all lineages die, and all towns die.  And if you still want to talk about "survival" it's not and hasn't been well defined as to what such means.

2. Such isn't about staying one step ahead of the player.  On the contrary, it's more like trying to stay behind the player and resentfully slow the player down.

3. Necessity doesn't create interest.  The game won't become more interesting by people needing to yum, nor by needing to eat more in general.

jasonrohrer wrote:

This week, a new gradual scaling system is in place:  as the generations wear on for a given family, a growing value is subtracted from all food values. ... You can see how this kind of adjustment affects low-value foods much more than high-value foods, in relative terms.

People made human civilization, specifically speaking the invention of agricultural, in significant measure so that they could have MORE nutritious food for themselves or their descendants.  All that selective breeding of crops, which has been abundant since agricultural got invented.  The food system you've put into place though makes food less nutritious over time.  In other words, there's no to less compelling reason for an individual to prefer living in a potentially more advanced state (one further down the generational line) than the earlier state (closer to the early generation(s)).  That doesn't encourage civilization building, and the game is advertised as one about civilization building.  But no, instead it's one where agricultural seems like it's the spell of less nutrient dense food for people by necessity.

Later generations should have to eat less than previous ones, because that's a longstanding motivation of building civilization... better nutrition for people.

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#5 2020-04-17 23:18:54

antking:]#
Member
Registered: 2018-12-29
Posts: 525

Re: Update: Food Fixes

well pien, I think Jason heard our call for a berry nerf... and every one should check the change log on onetech, to see the new food values, whole milk is no longer the best food (I think the feast plate is at 60pips!!!)


"hear how the wind begins to whisper, but now it screams at me" said ashe
"I remember it from a Life I never Lived" said Peaches
"Now Chad don't invest in Asian markets" said Chad's Mom
Herry the man who cheated death

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#6 2020-04-18 02:57:25

MistressZues
Member
Registered: 2018-04-24
Posts: 255

Re: Update: Food Fixes

jasonrohrer wrote:

But up until now, YUM hasn't been needed for survival anyway.  I'm in the process of changing that.

please don't, YUM is a fun thing and a nice bonus to work for. Making it necessary for survival will just ruin it make it annoying and impossible for new players an eve camps to survive.


I love to help my village an my family in game! Im Eve Wild an pride myself on being a good mom to my kids in game an irl!

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#7 2020-04-18 03:32:43

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 3,582

Re: Update: Food Fixes

The recent update makes the yum chain unbreakable, so it should be much more user-friendly and harder to fuck up.   New players will essentially gain a passive benefit for randomly eating available foods.    This benefit is even greater when you actually make an effort to seek out new foods, but you are not penalized severely for grabbing the closest food item in a crisis situation.

Overall, I think it is a great change to make yum more mainstream.   It removes the micromanagement requirement that resulted in yum being a niche behavior.   I would feel comfortable teaching all my new babies to yum now.   Before, I was always afraid that they would die, trying to keep the chain going or because they forgot to eat.   Now you can just yum when you want and how much you want without worrying that you are doing it "wrong".   And the lower food values mean that you can potential get a very high chain before dying.

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#8 2020-04-18 10:22:40

Blue tinker
Member
Registered: 2020-03-31
Posts: 53

Re: Update: Food Fixes

I am not sure if I like the direction the recent updates are going. Family specialties, food nerfs, iron changes, they are all nice ideas on paper but in reality the main thing they accomplish to do is to make the game harder. The difficulty curve increased significantly which may disencourage new players. But my main concern is that during my last few lifes I have been in small camps but rarely in big towns. With new changes, especially the recent food nerfs, we must focus largely on getting more food (which has also became harder) and there is less time to build and do all the unnecesary tasks like getting pet dogs. I still like the game how it is, I liked the panic that comes with having less food, it feels like OHOL hardcore mode, but I'm starting to think that there are too many nerfs for such a short period of time.


New to the forum but not the game. Property fence enthusiast.

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#9 2020-04-18 18:10:58

SparkleCake
Member
Registered: 2019-06-18
Posts: 14

Re: Update: Food Fixes

I'm loving these Fixes updates. I think it's the cumulative small things that make the experience shine.

jasonrohrer wrote:

If you're die-cycling to find your friends (living less than 20 minutes in your last life), you don't count toward the posse size of a posse that you join.  This limitation already applied to twins, but the goal is to prevent a group of friends from ganging up on people.

I'd like to offer the neutral perspective that I personally die-cycle because I only enjoy playing as a female. I don't play with friends. I do not participate in posses, anyway -- however, I felt it was worth sharing that there may be other reasons for die-cycling.

Edited for clarity.

Last edited by SparkleCake (2020-04-18 18:19:29)

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#10 2020-04-18 19:17:54

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 2,900

Re: Update: Food Fixes

SparkleCake wrote:

I'm loving these Fixes updates. I think it's the cumulative small things that make the experience shine.

jasonrohrer wrote:

If you're die-cycling to find your friends (living less than 20 minutes in your last life), you don't count toward the posse size of a posse that you join.  This limitation already applied to twins, but the goal is to prevent a group of friends from ganging up on people.

I'd like to offer the neutral perspective that I personally die-cycle because I only enjoy playing as a female. I don't play with friends. I do not participate in posses, anyway -- however, I felt it was worth sharing that there may be other reasons for die-cycling.

Edited for clarity.

Do you think you'd feel the same way about die-cycling to play as female, if adult male characters could be fathers on the family tree?

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#11 2020-04-18 20:38:11

Coconut Fruit
Member
Registered: 2019-08-16
Posts: 742

Re: Update: Food Fixes

Don't underestimate males, they can be much more productive than females. I love being a male in this game and fortunately I don't need to be a father.


Making own private server (Very easy! You can play on it even if you haven't bought the game)
Zoom mod
Mini guide for beginners
website with all recipies

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#12 2020-04-18 20:43:02

miskas
Member
From: Greece
Registered: 2018-03-24
Posts: 1,061

Re: Update: Food Fixes

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Don't underestimate males, they can be much more productive than females. I love being a male in this game and fortunately I don't need to be a father.

I always pray to be male! or an infertile female


Killing a griefer kills him for 10 minutes, Cursing him kills him for 30 Days.

4 curses kill him for all of us,  Mass Cursing bring us Peace! Please Curse!
Food value stats

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#13 2020-04-18 23:13:16

SparkleCake
Member
Registered: 2019-06-18
Posts: 14

Re: Update: Food Fixes

Spoonwood wrote:

Do you think you'd feel the same way about die-cycling to play as female, if adult male characters could be fathers on the family tree?

I would die-cycle to play as female no matter what. I prefer the female role dynamic for personal reasons, not really related to any strategy or benefit. I don't want to get too off-topic here, though.

Loving the simplicity & ease of access that the new Yum changes offer!

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#14 2020-04-20 16:12:58

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,676

Re: Update: Food Fixes

Yeah, I agree that male and female are quite different currently, and I think that part is in a pretty good place.

I also fully understand why some people would prefer one of the other.  They both have their strengths and weaknesses.

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#15 2020-04-20 18:27:37

LunyTerror
Member
Registered: 2019-05-19
Posts: 44

Re: Update: Food Fixes

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, I agree that male and female are quite different currently, and I think that part is in a pretty good place.

I also fully understand why some people would prefer one of the other.  They both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Female:
+ Have kids
- Have kids

Male:
+ no kids
- no kids


I name all my boys Elias and all my girls Eylul. If you get named Elias or Eylul It's me. smile

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#16 2020-04-20 21:34:28

antking:]#
Member
Registered: 2018-12-29
Posts: 525

Re: Update: Food Fixes

those bottle are going to fall, I am calling it here


"hear how the wind begins to whisper, but now it screams at me" said ashe
"I remember it from a Life I never Lived" said Peaches
"Now Chad don't invest in Asian markets" said Chad's Mom
Herry the man who cheated death

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#17 2020-05-03 21:34:41

Gomez
Member
Registered: 2018-04-17
Posts: 193

Re: Update: Food Fixes

bout time berry feasters got the stick, good riddance finally a mechanic to get people from lounging at the berry farms. one pip berries in old towns is a great mechanic it encourages new players to find another staple food in food abundant towns. if anything i yum just to avoid having to eat for that much longer.  on a long chain standing inside on a fire my last meal has often been taken in my 40s even lets you fell 3 trees as an elder....i really like doing that when I'm 55 to let the youngsters know grandpa still gots it, lul.

Last edited by Gomez (2020-05-03 21:36:51)

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