The food changes could be great/lean into stockpiling

tobiasisahawk · 2020-04-13 22:16:56

tl;dr big towns are boring because the meta discourages doing things. If the meta encouraged stockpiling, big towns would be fun because players would be encouraged to do things.

Recently, Jason implemented some changes so that the value of foods degrades over generations. This change has the potential to be a great mechanic that can vastly improve the game. The change was made to address the issue of boredom in late-game towns. In order fix the boredom, we first have to identify the problem correctly.

At first glance, it looks like the boredom arises from a lack of challenges. The corollary to this is the idea that fun arises from overcoming challenges. This seems obvious. The game IS fun when everyone has to rush to build the engine so you can get more water for the town. But does the fun come from the challenge to the villages survival? Consider another challenge, all of the nearby tarry spots have dried up. To solve this challenge you get on a horse and ride around for 20 minutes looking for another tarry spot just in time to make a map to it before you die. This is boring. It's a similar level of challenge but not nearly as fun. Instead, lets define the fun in the game as having a reason to be productive. The fun of needing to make an engine makes sense. There is a rush to make enough kindling, mine enough iron, fire enough charcoal, refine the iron into steel, etc. The challenge of running out of water isn't what makes it fun. Rather the fun comes from having lots of things to do in order to get the water.

If we look at fun this way, then the boredom in late stage towns makes sense. There are still challenges which I will categorize as exploration challenges and limited resource challenges. Exploration challenges are things like finding a new tarry spot or trading. Limited resource challenges are things like producing enough food and tools with limited water and iron.

Exploration challenges can be fun occasionally but when 60% of your lives are just holding left mouse button while riding a horse, it gets boring. Because of the very high necessity for trade, the meta has devolved to a small group of players just going to other towns and leaving their unique resource. There is no time for actual trade because the need for these resources is too high. You don't feel like you are being productive solving a challenge, because you are just riding around a map on a horse.
The limited resource challenges are almost anti-fun by this new definition. Rather than encouraging people to be productive farmers, we are encouraged to only be a little productive. Optimal play is to make small farms because growing too many crops wastes water. Building rails is practically griefing as a waste of iron that will doom your village. Only make tools that will be used immediately.

Jason's recent food change is a good example of a challenge encouraging productivity. As time goes on, towns need to create more food. This doesn't quite work with the current state of the game because creating more food just hastens the march to eventual water/kerosene/iron limits. But this would work really well if restrictions on iron/water/kerosene were lifted.

For example, here are some ways to change the resource exhaustion challenges into challenges designed to encourage productivity. Instead of the tarry spot drying up, newcomen pumps break destroying the iron, rope, beams etc (not the stone blocks because they aren't renewable). The tarry spot would still be there. This gives players something productive to do, build a new newcomen pump, make more pipes, etc. It makes sense to build a road to the tarry spot. It makes sense to build rails to the tarry spot. The same could work for wells also. Rather than the newcomen breaking and forcing players to upgrade to diesel, you could build a new newcomen pump to replace it. The diesel engine could break over time forcing you to scrap and rebuild the whole thing. Because the kerosene doesn't run out, diesel mines don't run out so iron isn't limited. For this to work, diesel cannot stay race-restricted. Allowing floors under tarry spots similar to how ice holes work would remedy this. To fix trade, make it so newcomen pumps only require a single rubber tire when they are first created (like they used to be). Now trade is still needed but it can become more natural since we aren't so desperate that players have to resort to metagaming just to solve the problem. Since the pumps and engines break over time rubber will still be needed. Because kerosene doesn't have a hard limit, cars are actually a useful upgrade to make trade easier. Airplanes as well.

The beauty of changes like this is that productivity isn't only encouraged during crises, because players know that engines and newcomens break, they'll need to stockpile iron and steel. They'll need to stockpile spare engines. Because food loses value, we'll need to stockpile food. We'll need to build more shelves to store food in. We'll need to expand the pens. We'll need to expand the farms. We'll need to build rails to effectively move resources around. There's much more work that needs to get done.

A big problem of tool slots is that it is not fun to be limited in what you can do in a life. This is because stockpiling is discouraged. It's not fun to be limited in what you can do, if you've reached the limit of the amount of what your tools produce without wasting resources. If stockpiles were encouraged, this changes and tool slots becomes a fun mechanic.

Teaching is discouraged with our current meta. By the time I teach someone how to farm a crop, we have enough of that crop and making more is wasting soil/water/iron. I could have made the appropriate amount much faster if I didn't teach the player. If we needed to stockpile, a new player could be taught how to do something, and then spend their life doing it which would be a net positive on the investment of time spent teaching. New players won't feel like drains on the town if they only know how to do a few things because the town would actually need them to do those things.

Melea · 2020-04-14 01:29:23

This ties in nicely with the idea that players should be able to make larger, more complex civilizations over time. But complexity doesn't arise when there's constant scarcity and most effort has to go towards basic sustenance and survival. People develop larger, more varied towns and jobs when important things AREN'T scarce. People specialize more when they have the luxury to do so - when food, water, and clothing/shelter are stable and abundant.

Eve camps are a good example - players need to be jack-of-all-trades in early camps. Because there's a constant need for EVERYTHING. Slapping together something functional and necessary is all that's possible at the time, because wasting time and food trying to be creative or new can kill off early camps.

It's only in later towns where players can devote more of each life to a creative pursuit, because others can also do so. In real life, civilizations become more advanced as they make technology to make life easier and more productive. When only a few people are needed farming to feed thousands that frees up a lot of people to spend time learning and developing more useful tech and innovations. But part of that is being able to store and stockpile necessary materials in large amounts so they're easily available when needed.

There's a reason granaries are an ancient technology that persists in the modern world - we need to be able to produce and efficiently store plenty of essential goods for a stable society to develop. Constantly being on the verge of running out doesn't leave much room for new behavior.

Right now I think part of the problem is that we're hampered by water availability. Nearly everything in town relies upon water, and changes over the last year have kept chipping away at a town's water supply. No pond-based wells, well site tap-out radius, less oil, racial restrictions crippling the ability to make necessary well upgrades, etc.

Casino town didn't develop because of constant stress. It developed because people had the luxury of abundance so they could focus on fun or creative outlets instead of feeling compelled to focus on saving a crippled town.

I do like many other updates, but 'updates' that push and push for towns to die out easier from resource scarcity (or absolute inability to access a biome -_-)...for me, that doesn't help make the game more fun. Neutering our ability in game to advance and prosper for more "challenging" drudgery just...sucks.

Morti · 2020-04-14 18:02:27

This is where great cities begin.

Spoonwood · 2020-04-14 23:12:49

tobiasisahawk wrote:

The game IS fun when everyone has to rush to build the engine so you can get more water for the town. But does the fun come from the challenge to the villages survival?

No. It use to be that pumps did not break. People would still make diesel engines, even though there was plenty of water from charcoal pumps. There wasn't any threat of water running out (though villages and lineages did die off as always), once a town had a charcoal pump, but people did oil and made diesel water pumps anyways.

Léonard · 2020-04-15 16:04:14

Lots of things I agree on in this thread.

Though I think Spoonwood makes a point here.
I can personally attest that back when I played, the game was fun even if we weren't on the edge of starvation all the time.
I would always make sure to upgrade the city's tech. That's the way I had most fun. I'm not saying other parts weren't fun, farming and procuding certain foods were its own fun and I even came to love Eve camps myself, but the most fun I had was when I could advance the tech.

I clearly remember being born, promptly checking at what level a city was at, checking if there was no problem that would take priority over tech upgrades (such as food crisis, bears, iron needs, you name it) and if the city was ready for an upgrade, I would work on that right away, even though we weren't technically starving.
Looking back on it, you can clearly see Maslow's hierarchy of needs in this. I didn't even know what that theory was at the time.
And yet here it is. If every villages were starving, I wouldn't have focused on tech upgrades at all.

I had tons of fun. First time learning to build engines (which I did last because it did always look like a daunting task) which I most likely wouldn't have tried to if villages were always starving.
Upgrading simple wells with a Newcomen pump, improving the smithing area with Newcomen technology, etc etc...

Anyways, back to the thread, my point is that what you define as making challenges fun, i.e. having a reason to be productive, has some complexity behind it.
If back when I played I would have most fun while upgrading the city's tech, it's not because water would run out.
As Spoon points out, Newcomen pumps used to be able to go on forever and you could install them on any pond you wanted. Some people even believed it was inefficient to make engines due to the iron cost.
Yet I was more than happy to start working on a diesel pump.
The "reason" to be productive, so to speak, turned out to be just progress itself.
The fact that my efforts were enabled by a fundation of other people who were able to sustain not just themselves but me on top of that gave me the time and the ability to work on upgrades.

And in my mind, this has always gone hand in hand with population growth.
If people like me existed, people who could just work on tech all their lives without having to worry about food production, that must mean that we can sustain other kind of people/workers.
Literally civilization building.
And to me this felt natural. If I produced tech that can produce food in a more efficient manner, that means more and more people like me will be born and be able to survive and do more interesting things.
That was the reason for being productive. Literally.
In my mind, it was just as Jason said in his trailer:

at first, your contribution might be.. pretty basic!
But future generations can build on the fundation that you helped to create.
Hopefully, you get a chance to leave your own small mark on the world before you die.
And maybe, create something that helps your children and grandchildren.
But really.. All of this, is just the beginning!

MAN, WHAT A TRAILER! I always love re-watching it!
Always brings me back! Literally perfect.

So, yeah..
Back to the thread again.
Knowing this, the answer seems obvious to me.
The challenge has to be that we need to sustain bigger populations! That's where the idea comes from.
And back when I played (and still up to this day in fact) something odd would occur.
Big towns, instead of exponentially growing in population, would start to just die out on their own, for seemingly no reason.
Keep in mind that water couldn't even run out! Yet it would die.

There was no doubt anymore for me, once I played the high society update, about what the problem was.
When that update rolled out, something very interesting happened.
One of the first town developed enough to be able to produce the new clothing content.
It was insane. Everyone wanted to try it. This town was flooded with people. No one would /die out of it.
The town was literally flooded with sheep dung because of the amount of clothing that was being made there.
I even remember playing a few lives in other, less advanced, distant towns and noticing a trend of people stealing horses to migrate to that town.
At first I didn't make the link. But when it hit me, it was clear as day.
That's what was happening. People were starved for meaningful tech content that would allow technological progress!
That's why big towns would die out! Eureka!

For me, that's where the idea of pushing for content as a solution came from.
There was no doubt, for me, that if Jason pushed these kind of updates, the amount of players needed to make it challenging in the first place would come naturally.
If Jason made a farming automation update, the people interested by it would naturally come and it would be naturally challenging to support this kind of population.

Anyways, back to the thread, yet again.
Around the time the game started going downhill (what with the fences and all), some people in the forum started suggesting update ideas.
I remember a push from some people like futurebird for a storage update.
Some wanted it to solve the big trashy clutter that would always happen in big developed towns, others like me wanted to have specialized storage to be able to stockpile and sustain larger populations (rather than "emulate" it via food value degradation overtime).
It would have killed two birds with one stone.
But yeah, this isn't the first time this idea surfaced.
I was hopeful the first time I suggested it that all of this nerfing nonsense was happening because Jason had ran out of ideas.
But it's clear today this isn't the case.
And so, I suspect this will fall on deaf ears, just like it did a year ago..

Melea · 2020-04-16 13:44:58

Léonard wrote:

People were starved for meaningful tech content that would allow technological progress!
That's why big towns would die out! ... For me, that's where the idea of pushing for content as a solution came from. There was no doubt, for me, that if Jason pushed these kind of updates, the amount of players needed to make it challenging in the first place would come naturally. If Jason made a farming automation update, the people interested by it would naturally come and it would be naturally challenging to support this kind of population.

Exactly! People don't need to be forced into upgrading tech by imposing new scarcity on resources. Players will upgrade tech anyway over time, just because it's there. And a game that regularly delivers new things to create and try retains player interest much better.

This game has so many new players that buy the game, run a handful of lives, and then leave. This means:

1) the game trailer and marketing doesn't accurately represent the game (arguably true at the moment)

2) game is too difficult to survive in for new players (which is a legitimate problem, one that might be helped by having a more comprehensive tutorial or a no-hunger/no-death sandbox zone supplied for learning)

and/or

3) there just isn't enough interesting or creative content to sustain player interest

Many people either gave up on the game completely, or just aren't playing for long periods of time because there's nothing new or interesting going on. Restrictions on top of restrictions, nerfs on top of nerfs...that can make the game harder and more complex. But IMO those DON'T make the game more interesting. They DON'T have a draw that encourages people to play more often. Content is king, and our king is missing.

Coconut Fruit · 2020-04-16 14:07:51

Melea wrote:

Content is king, and our king is missing.

Maybe you managed to craft everything that is possible, but I guess about 95% of people haven't. Majority are newbies. They will stay for longer if game mechanics are more pleasant for them, I don't think they actually need more content.

I enjoy playing with people that aren't totally useless. If newbies will keep quitting almost right away after buying the game, we will always have about 90%+ of people that can do nothing. If people actually start staying with the game, overall skill will increase. Then we could actually ask for content that would make this game really cool and not only minority could enjoy it.

Spoonwood · 2020-04-16 14:46:27

Coconut Fruit wrote:

Maybe you managed to craft everything that is possible, but I guess about 95% of people haven't. Majority are newbies.

From the streams I've seen since the 'new player' popup got added, the majority of children have NOT gotten born with the newplayer popup. So, no, I don't think what you say holds.

Coconut Fruit wrote:

They will stay for longer if game mechanics are more pleasant for them, I don't think they actually need more content.

The game does not encourage players to learn. The tutorial has hardly anything in it. There don't exist challenges. And players returning to play again where they left off before is discouraged. Also, players choosing their starting positions is discouraged.

Coconut Fruit wrote:

If newbies will keep quitting almost right away after buying the game, we will always have about 90%+ of people that can do nothing If people actually start staying with the game, overall skill will increase. Then we could actually ask for content that would make this game really cool and not only minority could enjoy it.

You already can ask for content. That you write in such a way as if you can't ask for that now should give you pause.

Also, there's no compelling reasons that player retention will increase. The game designer tries to get players to do things by force, unlike how many other games have modes and enable significant player choice before the game and often even more in the game. The game designer doesn't value players learning by practicing as gets shown by the lackluster tutorial area. The game designer doesn't value new players with respect to their values, since they aren't misandrists and probably respect fathers in the real world, and because of how race gets portrayed in game. The game designer also doesn't value players continuing along in some sort of learning program, as players can't easily return to where they left off (and most of the servers are planned to gotten rid of). And the game designer doesn't value new players having any sense of survival... neither individually, nor collectively, as all players die and all lineages die out.

DestinyCall · 2020-04-16 14:50:41

I've never made a radio, engine, car, airplane, or oil rig, due to resource scarcity. I've also never crafted tattoos, glass, or wine, due to biome restrictions. Saddest of all, I've never made ice cream.

I would very much like to ... but I can't do it in 90% of the villages I am born into and shouldn't bother even trying in the other 10%.

Jason would say this content isn't made because it is not essential to village survival. But I would be happy to make non-essential fun stuff if it was POSSIBLE and not DETRIMENTAL to the village.

It is so frustrating to play a game that hates the concept of "play".

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-04-16 14:57:57)

fug · 2020-04-16 14:59:32

Well you're missing out because even doing things as silly as tattoos can be... fun! I remember teaching people how to do tattoos and how excited people can get when you offer them something as silly as just some black ink on their face. While I don't really care for wine making glassblowing can be pretty fun because it's a sort of balancing act.

You generally need 2+ rods and need to work fast else it cools and you've wasted your time. As annoying as tool slots can be having biome restrictions is just so much worse overall. I'd rather have to make choices on slots than just be straight locked from content unless I'm repeatedly killing myself which is frustrating for all parties involved.

Melea · 2020-04-16 15:47:04

fug wrote:

As annoying as tool slots can be having biome restrictions is just so much worse overall. I'd rather have to make choices on slots than just be straight locked from content unless I'm repeatedly killing myself which is frustrating for all parties involved.

Yeah - I'm not a huge fan of the tool slots but I think they're alright with the recent fixes: combining certain types of tools under one heading, not accidentally learning tools (like how you used to learn lasso by cutting one into two ropes), and having a free "you almost learned" use of a tool to allow for occasional side-crafting without penalty.

But biome restrictions in their current form are terrible. Simply terrible. An absolute magical lockout from a significant amount of the game each life feels both absurd and frustrating. I think biome/race integration could be implemented better - such as giving certain races bonuses or advantages in their areas, and hampering but not completely preventing other races from accessing that content.

The 'right' people will still be incentivized to specialize and the 'wrong' ones will have incentive to trade for easier access to those resources, but if you're unable to find or convince the right family to trade then the resources are still possible to acquire. Even if very difficult. And from a gameplay perspective, possible even if difficult is WAY more rewarding than "Nah, wrong color this life - no access for you."

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2020-04-13 22:16:56

The food changes could be great/lean into stockpiling

#2 2020-04-14 01:29:23

Re: The food changes could be great/lean into stockpiling

#3 2020-04-14 18:02:27

Re: The food changes could be great/lean into stockpiling

#4 2020-04-14 23:12:49

Re: The food changes could be great/lean into stockpiling

#5 2020-04-15 16:04:14

Re: The food changes could be great/lean into stockpiling

#6 2020-04-16 13:44:58

Re: The food changes could be great/lean into stockpiling

#7 2020-04-16 14:07:51

Re: The food changes could be great/lean into stockpiling

#8 2020-04-16 14:46:27

Re: The food changes could be great/lean into stockpiling

#9 2020-04-16 14:50:41

Re: The food changes could be great/lean into stockpiling

#10 2020-04-16 14:59:32

Re: The food changes could be great/lean into stockpiling

#11 2020-04-16 15:47:04

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