Gameplay against griefers - keepers

Gogo · 2020-01-12 14:27:51

I mainly switched my roles in one life, but it's not effective against griefing, so it's bad for towns. It seems every place in town should have a one keeper (for life) to prevent griefing and be well organized. Any thoughts about it? Is it better to prevent griefing, have a life-role or to fix things up when it's done?

DestinyCall · 2020-01-12 15:17:30

I'm unclear how keeping the same job for your entire life would reduce griefing.

What if you are the lumberjack. Do you chop trees and build piles of kindling your entire life? That would be a lot of wood. Probably way too much wood. Meanwhile, what happens if the baker isn't doing his job? Do you just ignore the lack of pies and stick to gathering branches and stacking up piles of logs? It seems like it would be even easier to grief if everyone sticks to a single position their whole life, because you could just fill a valuable role and do a poor job of it. As long as you held the position, you would be blocking others from doing the work. You could waste your time working inefficiently ... like intentionally chopping down hungry work trees or stripping the berry patch to make berry pies or running the forge to smelt a single iron. Unless someone stood around watching you, they might not notice that you were incompetent. And if they have their own job to work on, they might have no reason to check on your work quality.

Being a jack-of-all-trades gets you to move around the village and see how it is functioning as a whole. You notice shortages and fix gaps in the supply chain. You change between jobs as needed. If there is no wood, you chop trees. If there is no axe, you make tools. If there is no iron, you gather some. If there is no pies, you bake some. If there is no wheat, you plant some.

If you stick to lumber jacking, what happens to the rest of the village? Is anyone going to do the necessary work to support your trade? I sure hope so.

Spoonwood · 2020-01-12 15:49:25

DestinyCall wrote:

You could waste your time working inefficiently ... like intentionally chopping down hungry work trees or stripping the berry patch to make berry pies or running the forge to smelt a single iron.

I saw an image on the discord of proof of the rubber trees getting chopped up.

Probably about a year ago now, I got born into a place where there was a kiln on a desert edge and the whole berry patch was in a swamp. I tried to suicide away, but got reborn that at least twice and gave up on suiciding. So, I decided I'd strip all of the domestic berry bushes and hope that they would just decay on the ground. At one point someone said to me something like "it looks like you know what you're doing". I had been stripping berries and watched people rewater the bushes for a while, and said 'they can kind of keep up'. A little bit later someone took a flint chip and made seeds out of many of the berries that I had thrown on the ground in a bunch of spots (my recollection is that some had decayed, but not as much I had hoped).

DestinyCall · 2020-01-12 15:53:16

But Spoon ... you swore to me on your father's ashes that you were not a water griefer. I feel so betrayed. ಥ_ಥ

Gogo · 2020-01-12 16:38:11

DestinyCall wrote:

I'm unclear how keeping the same job for your entire life would reduce griefing.

You keep an eye on stuff in your outpost. Griefers won't have access to it. They're succesful, because people are in constant move and can't noticed griefers work. You try to improve everything in town and griefers are ahead of you.

DestinyCall wrote:

Do you just ignore the lack of pies and stick to gathering branches and stacking up piles of logs?

Why there's lack of pies in the first place?

DestinyCall wrote:

You could waste your time working inefficiently

Your inefficent work will be clearer to see.

If you're jack-of-all-trades you won't pass your jobs as easily as one job. Also there's not enough trust between townsfolks. You can more easily judge someone by their one task, if they do multiple tasks you can't keep a track on them.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-12 16:52:35

Gogo wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Do you just ignore the lack of pies and stick to gathering branches and stacking up piles of logs?
Why there's lack of pies in the first place?

Because the baker isn't doing his job, as I already mentioned.

Gogo wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
You could waste your time working inefficiently
Your inefficent work will be clearer to see.
If you're jack-of-all-trades you won't pass your jobs as easily as one job. Also there's not enough trust between townsfolks. You can more easily judge someone by their one task, if they do multiple tasks you can't keep a track on them.

Okay. So your baker is doing a lousy job. He isn't producing enough pies to meet the needs of the village. As a dedicated lumberjack, what do you do about it? You chop trees and haul firewood for a living. You don't make pies or loafs of bread or whatever. That is the baker's job. You are a manly lumberjack who only does manly lumberjack things and requires a manly number of pies to fuel his wood chopping. How do you fix this problem while remaining true to your lumberjack heritage?

testo · 2020-01-12 17:13:26

Whatever, I just do as I feel like doing. Sometimes I hunt, sometimes I bake, sometimes I smith, sometimes I gather, sometimes I build, sometimes I farm, sometimes I teach, sometimes I even shit talk people. Sometimes I run away and try to start a new town, sometimes I run away and try to find other people. Sometimes I kill people, sometimes I save people.

Spoonwood · 2020-01-12 17:13:38

DestinyCall wrote:

But Spoon ... you swore to me on your father's ashes that you were not a water griefer. I feel so betrayed. ಥ_ಥ

I intended the effect of throwing berries on the ground to waste food, because of decay. Isn't the water already gone once the berry bush gets watered? I didn't water any berry bushes in that life.

If I were playing with someone who I knew was watering berry bushes with the expectation that I throw them on the ground, then I would have took part consciously in the water griefing process. Perhaps I did take part in the water griefing process. Perhaps the person, whomever she was, did water the bushes expecting that I would throw more berries on the ground. My belief at the time was that she was watering bushes, because they were dry so that others could have more food. But, I simply do not know that, so I could have been helping a water griefer unexpectedly.

Do you think that water griefing would be as potentially dangerous back then as it is today Destiny?

DestinyCall · 2020-01-12 17:41:27

Water has always been a limiting factor. Right now, it is the most critical limited resource, even more precious than iron or oil or dirt. But I don't think there has ever been a time when running out of water was not a legitimate concern.

Big berry patches are one of the largest water-sinks in any village. Many people fail to appreciate how much water goes into gooseberry cycling, because renewing the bushes is such a constant and expected part of village life.

There is a reason why looking at the berry patch used to be the fastest way to assess the overall health of a village. If the berries were dying, you knew that the village was either low on dirt, low on water, or low on iron. Because almost everybody will water a dying gooseberry, even if the well is almost dry and there are a dozen wild bushes around town. Pretty much the only reason why the bushes stay brown is because there is a critical supply chain break that hasn't been fixed in a while.

And yes, stripping all the berries off domestic gooseberries and throwing them on the ground to decay is something a water griefer might do. Forcing other people to waste water is just as harmful as wasting the water yourself.

You can't claim ignorance, either. You said so yourself - you were stripping off the berries and watching them rewater the bushes after you finished. Even if your primary "goal" was to waste food, one of the immediate side effects was wasting water.

Two griefs for the price of one! Highly efficient.

Gogo · 2020-01-12 18:05:05

DestinyCall wrote:

How do you fix this problem while remaining true to your lumberjack heritage?

Just like ordinary, but when you do (argue, kill, curse) people around him will join you, cause they will be more aware if they stick to one place. If he sucks and won't be aware of that or punished (because you'll do his work), he will continue to sucks in future.

The first step to force this gameplay will be introduce decay of food - cooked mutton on ground will decay fast, they needed to be stocked in boxes or on tables, etc. The cook must organize things and keep an eye on them.

Are people too lazy because no one gave them a job and they don't know what to do?

Last edited by Gogo (2020-01-12 18:07:45)

DestinyCall · 2020-01-12 18:27:38

Gogo wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
How do you fix this problem while remaining true to your lumberjack heritage?
Just like ordinary, but when you do (argue, kill, curse) people around him will join you, cause they will be more aware if they stick to one place. If he sucks and won't be aware of that or punished (because you'll do his work), he will continue to sucks in future.

If the baker sucks, I would normally just bake more pies and go back to work. No big deal. Arguing over proper baking methods with a bad chef is a waste of time and killing someone for poor baking skills is too extreme. I only curse confirmed griefers and racists.

My point is that if our baker is lousy and everybody is stuck in one job for their whole life, we are depending on him to do his part for the village, so everyone else can do their job without interruption. Keepers have power and responsibility in their area of expertise.

How would you balance that power to deal with general incompetance or intentional sabotage?

If I need to go check on everybody and do their work if they are flaking off, I'm back to being a jack-of-all-trades. And if I get into a dispute with the baker about his baking skills, will the other people in the town really be on my side? Or will they be too busy with their own isolated jobs to notice the problems in the bakery? A single job per villager system is inherently fragile, because it lacks redundancies. If one person lags behind, the whole system backs up at that step in the supply chain. And killling a BAD baker might fix the immediate problem ... but it still leaves the town without a good baker.

.....

I'm not convinced that stable professions would actually cut down on griefing directly, but I'm not against the idea if it is implemented well. Unfortunately, I don't think current game mechanics support it. It is too hard to track who is responsible for what job or what positions are currently vacant or in need of additional workers. Even if someone is moving plates around in the kitchen, that does not mean they are actually ready to be the new baker.

Personally, I would love to see the tool slots replaced by professional titles. I detailed the idea in this thread - https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8311 The key points are that your profession is visible to other players and provides modest benefits for being a uni-tasker, but you can change jobs if necessary or remain as a generalist, if you lack professional goals. Spending a long time in the same position would grant you a better title and a few more benefits.

I think professional titles would be far more useful than royal titles, since they would let other people know what you are working on and what area of village life you are responsible for at the moment. But if you realize that your village needs a novice baker more than a senior lumberjack, you can change jobs to fill the gap.

It would be a more dynamic and forgiving system, compared with tool slots and it would communicate more information regarding who to ask for help if you need someone to bake more pies or make a new shovel. It might also help encourage new players to explore new jobs and expand their skills by providing more ideas for unique work.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-01-12 18:52:50)

Spoonwood · 2020-01-12 18:57:24

DestinyCall wrote:

And yes, stripping all the berries off domestic gooseberries and throwing them on the ground to decay is something a water griefer might do.

I agree, a water griefer might throw berries on the ground. But, is a person griefing the water supply exactly when that griefer throws the berry on the ground?

DestinyCall wrote:

And yes, stripping all the berries off domestic gooseberries and throwing them on the ground to decay is something a water griefer might do. Forcing other people to waste water is just as harmful as wasting the water yourself.
You can't claim ignorance, either. You said so yourself - you were stripping off the berries and watching them rewater the bushes after you finished. Even if your primary "goal" was to waste food, one of the immediate side effects was wasting water.

Water end up wasted, I agree. I can't claim ignorance of game mechanics or innocence, yes. But, did I cause the person who watered the bushes to water them? I don't recall encouraging them to do so, or trying them to deceive them in some way into doing so.

I guess we're differing, because I consider water griefing as griefing any water that can still get used for some particular purpose by a player.

But again, a water griefer might stirp domestic berry bushes. Throwing berries on the ground might get done with the expectation of someone else watering bushes later AND berries getting thrown on the ground after that, all done by the same person I suppose.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-12 19:19:20

I consider it water griefing when your griefing hurts the village's water supply.

There many ways to grief and many motivations that inspire griefing. In my opinion, the exact method doesn't matter as much as the intent to do harm and the end result.

....

But we seem to be getting off topic.

What do you think about working in the same profession your whole life? Would it give you greater ownership over your job space? Would it cut down on griefing? Would it help organize workflow in the village? How do you think it should work? Do you think professional titles would be good for the game?

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-01-12 21:17:47)

Punkypal · 2020-01-13 04:42:28

Actually why griefers go unstopped is summed up in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont … e=emb_logo

The guy knocking out the old man is the griefer. Everyone else on the bus are your average player in OHOL. One person runs away, one person gets upset, but actually does nothing, and everyone else sits around and makes little "derp" noises. The actual only difference is if anything happens about it in OHOL is because there are three kinds of griefer on the bus at the same time (mouthy griefer, stab-happy vigilante, & griefer's sycophant RP follower), and after the old man gets knocked out, the three griefers all kill each other.

Spoonwood · 2020-01-13 05:30:51

DestinyCall wrote:

Would it cut down on griefing?

I think it could make griefing more dangerous and I think it would even make towns more fragile to griefing. The implementation of springs, along with ponds not regenerating water for a whole week, made towns more fragile to griefing, because there existed less water locally, and that water got concentrated at a point. With players working in the same profession their whole lives, there's also a concentration going on. A griefer only has to figure out who to get rid of or harass enough with fixed professions. For example, suppose that the town is low on firewood, and has an axe that almost gets broke. The griefer talks with the lumberjack first to cut down the trees to break the axe. Then the griefer dispenses of or harasses the smith enough, so he doesn't end up making an axe one way or another. Finally, the griefer becomes the new town smith. And no axe gets made. Maybe that's not the best example, but I think such concentrations as having the same profession your whole life don't end up robust enough to withstand griefers.

DestinyCall wrote:

Would it help organize workflow in the village?

Probably.

DestinyCall wrote:

How do you think it should work? Do you think professional titles would be good for the game?

I think nominal professional titles might help new players in some instances and might make communication more effective.

Gogo · 2020-01-13 18:59:22

When I was a griefer all I wanted was no one around to perform my actions unnoticed. So a cook, smith, shepard and farmer are four long-life jobs that will cover main areas in town. I don't mind outside of town jobs and even don't wrote about them.

I tried both gameplays and have long-life task is better, later I will write why. Of course people doing multi-tasks (bringing stuff) are also needed.

Last edited by Gogo (2020-01-13 19:00:32)

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2020-01-12 14:27:51

Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#2 2020-01-12 15:17:30

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#3 2020-01-12 15:49:25

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#4 2020-01-12 15:53:16

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#5 2020-01-12 16:38:11

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#6 2020-01-12 16:52:35

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#7 2020-01-12 17:13:26

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#8 2020-01-12 17:13:38

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#9 2020-01-12 17:41:27

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#10 2020-01-12 18:05:05

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#11 2020-01-12 18:27:38

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#12 2020-01-12 18:57:24

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#13 2020-01-12 19:19:20

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#14 2020-01-13 04:42:28

Re: Gameplay against griefers - keepers

#15 2020-01-13 05:30:51

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#16 2020-01-13 18:59:22

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