Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

pedrito confesiones · 2019-12-29 11:37:26

g r i e f i n g m a k e s m e W E T

DarkDrak · 2019-12-29 12:03:55

I just took a moment to think about how huge this game could've been if all the people, who genuinly enjoyed it, wouldn't have left out of frustration. The most i've seen on server reflect is 100-120 players at a given time, for like half a year now. The least being like 30 in the rift age. It could've easly been a several thousands.

I remember I was playing it a few times at my parents' house and my little 9yo brother was watching me. And he was asking to play. He had watched some youtube videos of it, so he thought he could've handled it. Normally i let him play stuff like modded minecraft or don't starve and i like when he enjoys it. But i couldn't bring myself to let him play OHOL, because i knew that it wouln't been fun for him. He'd just get stabbed for no reason or get kidnapped and starved. And he'd come to hate this game. It's such a beautiful game but he'd turn away from it 'cause of dumb shit like that.

Can we have an F for all the experienced players who left 'cause of greifing and also a hugeass F for thousands of new players who could've enjoyed OHOL and maybe created wonders in it, if they hadn't quit <24 hours in 'cause of all the frustrating stuff piled on new players, such as dumb killing and senseless cursing, but also hate on berrymunchin and, huge, unintuitive tech curve (that one has pretty much no way of exploring without using outside-the-game info or having someone teaching them and nobody got time or patience to teach noobs over and over), sense of disorientation that the vanilla client gives and lots of dumb shit such as anger at them for taking stuff from the floor or from eating berries 'cause they dunno what a pie is?

Goddemn am i depressed now.
Also... fucking necros.

jcwilk · 2019-12-29 12:17:39

M night twist - the fact that you can walk up to someone and stab them for no reason and then seconds later have them spawn as your bb patiently awaiting the perfect moment to strike in vengeance... might actually be why that many people play rather than fewer

Spoonwood · 2019-12-29 12:28:52

jcwilk wrote:

M night twist - the fact that you can walk up to someone and stab them for no reason and then seconds later have them spawn as your bb patiently awaiting the perfect moment to strike in vengeance... might actually be why that many people play rather than fewer

That could happen more easily in the low pop context. Griefers don't usually go there for that sort of thing. Also, having a desire to take vengeance requires a sort of anger. So, such a player would already feel upset and frustrated by the situation. So again, I don't think what you say holds.

JasonY · 2019-12-29 12:47:38

Towns need an Anti-Hero, not a griefer. A lot of people in-game seem to have a very black and white sense of morality, You are either the murderer or the one killed the murderer.
The Anti-Hero kills preemptively and doesn't put up with people's bs. People hate them and curse them but every person they kill deserves it.

Last edited by JasonY (2019-12-29 12:55:27)

ollj · 2019-12-29 12:58:33

jcwilk wrote:

M night twist - the fact that you can walk up to someone and stab them for no reason and then seconds later have them spawn as your bb patiently awaiting the perfect moment to strike in vengeance... might actually be why that many people play rather than fewer

this used to be so much worse with swords, you could hunt down 3-12 males of another town (near a bell), and you were much more likely to be born as a baby in the town where you just decimated the male population in your previous life (within less than 4 sids, you quickly find your decimated town to repopulate it)
the fun poart here is, that you got a LOT of "free cloth" as a baby, and yoou also got a "performance report", usually like "be careful my baby, there is an hostile army of like 4 of them". nope, it was just me, doing guerillia warfare for 10-20 minutes, picking up like 6 males. and the paranoid female survivors cared EXTRA nicely for the new baby, and you already knew where all the best stuff was from your guerilla from your past life.

Last edited by ollj (2019-12-29 13:00:34)

testo · 2019-12-29 17:07:28

JasonY wrote:

Towns need an Anti-Hero, not a griefer. A lot of people in-game seem to have a very black and white sense of morality, You are either the murderer or the one killed the murderer.
The Anti-Hero kills preemptively and doesn't put up with people's bs. People hate them and curse them but every person they kill deserves it.

HAHA so true.
No wait, that´s just bullshit.

Punkypal · 2019-12-29 22:10:05

jasonrohrer wrote:

Without the threat of at least some chaos, there's nothing to strive for, and nothing to fight against, and nothing to organize around. A griefer represents a little shard of chaos.
Now, that said, I don't want griefers to rule this game. I don't want it to be a non-stop grief-fest. I want to give you the tools to collectively rise up and defend yourself against the griefers.

Well since Spoonwood necro'ed this thread.....what what, it was Johtolink? GTFO!

Anyway, I'll again say that my stance isn't that griefers simply existing is a problem. It's that their are too many ways that the creative ones can grief doing things SOLO that take short amounts of time, but take those trying to stop it MULTIPLE people significantly more time. This over amplifies the griefers power and their joy. More and more people start to grief than normally would because they can actually have fun. Their work is only interrupted by their own success (I guess I have to stop trying to destroy this town, because now there's nobody left thanks to me!), whereas a non-griefer frequently has to stop what they are doing on account of the griefer. It isn't fun and is very frustrating to constantly have to stop what you are doing. The level of frustration only eggs the griefer on.

It's hard and ineffective to organize others, even more so as griefers have the same tools at hand. I've seen them often work in teams and one will try to counter organize people, spread lies, vouch for a griefer, or turn a town against someone acting as a guard. Which by the way, It doesn't seem like anyone enjoys being a guard. You waste a whole life trying to watch others. People will likely give you shit for "not working". It's honestly no fun to just stand around monitoring people. If you call someone out for griefing, most of the town usually won't do anything (because there isn't much they can do anyway, right?), and if you kill the griefer, someone will probably kill you for it. If you carry around a bow and arrow as a guard, a murderer just might try to kill you first. You give yourself away as someone who's watching at least. Sure this might make a griefer move elsewhere, but often they just are careful to do their trouble away from you or do more low key things. It doesn't stop them, just might change they way they grief, so guards aren't very effective anyway.

Besides, a town usually needs so much done to keep it going (even more as constant energy is spent countering griefer efforts), players have little time for "leisure activities" such as organizing a town guard duty, or a political structure to maintain order, or even stopping long enough to keep an eye out for bad behavior. Helpful activities can take sooooooo long, how the heck am I supposed to take time to help stop griefing when it takes an entire lifetime (usually longer) just to make one oil pump, or a single engine?

I've heard thast Jason said every town should have a griefer. OK, I'll accept that. But how often? One per day? I could live with that. two or three? Ehh, not thrilled about that many but I could tolerate it I suppose. As it is now? It appears to be multiple every hour. A large bell town will see about 50 griefer lives making multiple griefing attempts per life, every singe day, and I believe that even could be a low estimation. That doesn't even count all the noobs doing unhelpful things just because they don't know better.

The balance currently is out of wack. I don't know how bad it was a year ago, I didn't play then. In the time I have played, it seems to only have gotten worse. Maybe that's because the last Steam sale attracted a lot of players that quickly got bored and turned into griefers. IDK. Unfortunately it's a snowball effect. The more people grief, the less fun others have. The less fun others have, the more likely they are to start griefing, or just quit, thus changing the griefer to non-griefer ratio in favor or more griefers.

Jason needs to do some drastic things to either 1) Make the creating tasks more enjoyable and rewarding 2) Make doing helpful things faster and easier, so we have more time to talk, organize, and fight griefing 3) Make griefing far less enjoyable and the risks of being caught griefing far more severe. 4) Preferable a little of all the above.

Last edited by Punkypal (2019-12-29 22:14:25)

Spoonwood · 2019-12-29 22:26:29

Yeah... I wouldn't necro a thread started by futurebird, because I don't expect that she will return. That said, some interesting discussion has existed in this thread.

Kinrany · 2019-12-29 23:25:13

I still think griefing should be legalized. There's a whole genre of games like Werewolf or Secret Hitler where some players are secretly working against the rest.

Right now griefers are a random event. Dealing with griefers takes preparation and is super boring and frustrating.

If every 20th player was told by the game to be a griefer and given some minor powers, the whole meta would have to adapt to that. Dealing with griefers would be explicitly a part of the game.

New item: a fire with a stake. Burning a witch prevents new witches from being born for 30 years, but burning a regular character just kills them.

Punkypal · 2019-12-29 23:52:43

Kinrany wrote:

I still think griefing should be legalized. There's a whole genre of games like Werewolf or Secret Hitler where some players are secretly working against the rest.
Right now griefers are a random event. Dealing with griefers takes preparation and is super boring and frustrating.
If every 20th player was told by the game to be a griefer and given some minor powers, the whole meta would have to adapt to that. Dealing with griefers would be explicitly a part of the game.
New item: a fire with a stake. Burning a witch prevents new witches from being born for 30 years, but burning a regular character just kills them.

Point of order: Griefing can't get any more legalized than the currently 100% legalized.

This would be a great idea if nobody was griefing, and the game was getting boring and too easy, and we needed a way to encourage players to do it.

If you like a game like Secret Hitler or Werewolf then by all means go play Secret Hitler or Werewolf. I promise I won't come and try to build a Lego set on top of your deck of Werewolf cards. There is also a genre of games that are sandbox community building games. Should the people who want to play that kind of game have it, or are they only allowed to do so if nobody wants to be secret hitler?

DestinyCall · 2019-12-30 00:20:51

If you want to play a game that does "antagonist roles" the right way, Spacestation 13 does it pretty much perfectly. The majority of players are working together toward a common goal and they are expected to follow "space law" and do their jobs. But some players are assigned roles that oppose the space station and have their own win conditions that involve acting against the common good. These players are encouraged to act outside of the law and disrupt the peace as part of their role.

But it is important to recognize that antagonists are NOT griefers. In fact, the majority of Spacestation 13 servers are very strict on actual griefing and you can get job-banned or worse if the admins catch you intentionally being a jerk to other players, regardless of role. Like every multiplayer game, some players aren't happy playing within the rules of the game. And antagonists do have their own set of rules that need to be followed, even if it allows for more hostile action compared with a regular player. It is not just "legalized" griefing.

....

I think it is a mistake to think of griefing as some kind of natural source for exciting gameplay. Griefers don't care about the game and they won't hold themselves back to a "reasonable" amount of abuse, if you make them feel welcome to do their worst. There are much better ways to make a good game than encouraging toxicity and cheap tactics. Player freedom and interesting choices are great. Rampant destruction and abuse are not so great.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-30 00:25:00)

Cantface · 2019-12-30 00:42:47

I don't want to give up on this game, but the one other person I used to play with doesn't play anymore, and I haven't played in weeks because this isn't fun. I know people don't care too much but if things keep going on the way they have been, you may need to rely on putting OHOL on sale again or even reduce the price to make up for the waning player base. However, you can't replace the good players that left. New people will learn, get good, get frustrated like the others and they may leave too. It could happen, but as long as there's a handful of people playing no loss right? I don't think it's sustainable, personally. I hope I'm wrong.

JasonY · 2019-12-30 02:18:25

testo wrote:

JasonY wrote:
Towns need an Anti-Hero, not a griefer. A lot of people in-game seem to have a very black and white sense of morality, You are either the murderer or the one killed the murderer.
The Anti-Hero kills preemptively and doesn't put up with people's bs. People hate them and curse them but every person they kill deserves it.
HAHA so true.

I'm glad you agree

Kinrany · 2019-12-30 03:04:29

DestinyCall wrote:

But it is important to recognize that antagonists are NOT griefers. In fact, the majority of Spacestation 13 servers are very strict on actual griefing and you can get job-banned or worse if the admins catch you intentionally being a jerk to other players, regardless of role. Like every multiplayer game, some players aren't happy playing within the rules of the game. And antagonists do have their own set of rules that need to be followed, even if it allows for more hostile action compared with a regular player. It is not just "legalized" griefing.

Yeah, true. Point is, defending against antags is similar to defending against griefers, but you know that you have to do it all the time, that it's not something rare that can be ignored.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-30 09:02:04

It's similar, but not really the same. Like killing players on the other team is similar but not really the same as killing players on your own team.

For me, games are the most fun when everyone is playing by the same set of rules and playing "fair". I feel like Jason wants griefers to be a part of the game to add more variety and danger, but it doesn't work the same as adding antagonist roles in SS13 ... or having a red team and a blue team in Team Fortress ... or even playing a hidden roles game like Werewolf.

A griefer in SS13 would be the Engineer to releases the tesla to destroy the station five minutes into the round or the doctor who intentionally places medical equipment inside his surgery patients for fun. A griefer in a game of Team Fortress is the guy who intentionally acts to sabatoge his own team or shoots his team mates in the back. A griefer in a game of Werewolf is the guy who doesn't close his eyes during the "night phase" so he can see the other players doing their night actions or the guy who immediately reveals his own role even if he is the werwolf "because he's bad at lying".

A player who decides to grief is making a conscious choice to subvert the rules and play outside of the common game-space. He isn't a part of the game everyone else is playing together. He's the guy playing his own game with his own rules and using other people for his own amusement. You can't design your game around griefers, because griefers aren't playing your game in the first place.

I could get behind the idea of adding some kind of player-controlled antagonist roles into OHOL - Sentient bears, anyone? But I don't think "legalized griefing" has any place in a decent game. That is not the kind of game that I would want to play. And if I did, I could just play more Rust.

JasonY · 2019-12-30 11:58:57

DestinyCall wrote:

Like killing players on the other team is the same as killing players on your own team.
Griefers add more variety and danger, it work the same as adding antagonist roles in SS13 ... or having a red team and a blue team in Team Fortress ... or even playing a hidden roles game like Werewolf.
A griefer would destroy the doctor who intentionally places medical equipment. A griefer in a game of Team Fortress is the guy who intentionally acts to sabatoge his own team or shoots his team mates in the back. A griefer in a game of Werewolf is the guy who doesn't close his eyes during the "night phase" so he can see the other players doing their night actions or the guy who immediately reveals his own role even if he is the werwolf "because he's bad at lying".
A player who decides to grief is making a conscious choice to subvert the rules and play outside of the common game-space. He isn't a part of the game everyone else is playing together. He's the guy playing his own game with his own rules and using other people for his own amusement. You can't design your game around griefers, because griefers aren't playing your game in the first place.
I could get behind the idea of adding antagonist roles into OHOL - Sentient bears, anyone? I think griefing has a place in a decent game. That is the kind of game that I would want to play. And if I did, I could just play more

Ye

Kinrany · 2019-12-30 16:06:17

DestinyCall wrote:

A griefer in SS13 would be the Engineer to releases the tesla to destroy the station five minutes into the round or the doctor who intentionally places medical equipment inside his surgery patients for fun.

We must have been playing on different servers because releasing the singulo was totally something a traitor would do, and even non-traitor surgeons would routinely FORGET stuff inside their patients :D

The_Anabaptist · 2019-12-30 17:42:42

There definitely has been an increase in griefer incidents in the last three days. Hopefully that just means that there has been too much holiday brake and the bored griefer kiddies will be back in school on Thursday. Jason, please take note and plan for a content update to hit after next Christmas to keep everyone preoccupied till they are safely back in school.

The_Anabaptist

DestinyCall · 2019-12-30 18:04:07

Kinrany wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
A griefer in SS13 would be the Engineer to releases the tesla to destroy the station five minutes into the round or the doctor who intentionally places medical equipment inside his surgery patients for fun.
We must have been playing on different servers because releasing the singulo was totally something a traitor would do, and even non-traitor surgeons would routinely FORGET stuff inside their patients

Yes exactly. A non-traitor Engineer who releases the singulo on purpose is a griefer. And a doctor who intentionally performs malpractice for fun is also griefing.

Accidental harm due to incompetance or causing intentional damage to achieve your antagonist goals would be acceptable play. Griefers are (by definition) players who act outside of those bounds. As a bad doctor or incompetent Engineer, you might get job-banned. Obviously, if you are a traitor and you need to cause a lot of destruction to achieve your goal, messing with the engine is reasonable. And if you plant a bomb inside an assassination target as a traitor doctor, that is also reasonable and inventive. But if you are purposefully doing stuff like that when it is not justified by your antag goals, that is a real problem and likely to get noticed by admins on most servers.

My point is that there is a real difference between being an antagonist and being a griefer. Even though the actions might look similar or have the same overall effect, one is an acceptable part of the game and the other is not. And there is a good reason for making the distinction because allowing griefers to act without restriction can lead to serious problems. The singularity eating your station is fun/exciting/terrible if it happens rarely. But the novelty wears off quickly if it happens every shift.

Stormyzabeast · 2020-01-02 21:20:03

DarkDrak wrote:

I just took a moment to think about how huge this game could've been if all the people, who genuinly enjoyed it, wouldn't have left out of frustration. The most i've seen on server reflect is 100-120 players at a given time, for like half a year now. The least being like 30 in the rift age. It could've easly been a several thousands.

I remember I was playing it a few times at my parents' house and my little 9yo brother was watching me. And he was asking to play. He had watched some youtube videos of it, so he thought he could've handled it. Normally i let him play stuff like modded minecraft or don't starve and i like when he enjoys it. But i couldn't bring myself to let him play OHOL, because i knew that it wouln't been fun for him. He'd just get stabbed for no reason or get kidnapped and starved. And he'd come to hate this game. It's such a beautiful game but he'd turn away from it 'cause of dumb shit like that.

Can we have an F for all the experienced players who left 'cause of greifing and also a hugeass F for thousands of new players who could've enjoyed OHOL and maybe created wonders in it, if they hadn't quit <24 hours in 'cause of all the frustrating stuff piled on new players, such as dumb killing and senseless cursing, but also hate on berrymunchin and, huge, unintuitive tech curve (that one has pretty much no way of exploring without using outside-the-game info or having someone teaching them and nobody got time or patience to teach noobs over and over), sense of disorientation that the vanilla client gives and lots of dumb shit such as anger at them for taking stuff from the floor or from eating berries 'cause they dunno what a pie is?

Goddemn am i depressed now.
Also... fucking necros.

+5000

Last edited by Stormyzabeast (2020-01-02 21:20:38)

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#51 2019-12-29 11:37:26

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#52 2019-12-29 12:03:55

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#53 2019-12-29 12:17:39

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#54 2019-12-29 12:28:52

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#55 2019-12-29 12:47:38

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#56 2019-12-29 12:58:33

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#57 2019-12-29 17:07:28

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#58 2019-12-29 22:10:05

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#59 2019-12-29 22:26:29

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#60 2019-12-29 23:25:13

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#61 2019-12-29 23:52:43

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#62 2019-12-30 00:20:51

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#63 2019-12-30 00:42:47

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#64 2019-12-30 02:18:25

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#65 2019-12-30 03:04:29

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#66 2019-12-30 09:02:04

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#67 2019-12-30 11:58:57

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#68 2019-12-30 16:06:17

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#69 2019-12-30 17:42:42

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

#70 2019-12-30 18:04:07

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#71 2020-01-02 21:20:03

Re: Since Jason says that every town should have a griefer I became one

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