Inverted hierarchy

Kinrany · 2019-12-26 16:44:14

I had great success with asking people to do basic but time-consuming things for me. Call me lazy, but I don't like to spend minutes searching for clay to save seconds on teaching people.

But I noticed that at no point did it seem appropriate to ask them to follow me.

Asking someone to follow you immediately feels like you're saying you're better than them. Like it's a play for social status, with no justification other than vanity. And humans really don't like to give people status for nothing.
And it is, but the perceived status is much higher than actual status. It doesn't even work as a proof of your ability to convince people to do stuff: self-starting players don't need to be told what to do, but there are other players who will follow anyone for any reason.

Being a Lord is a tiny better than not being one, but any title above a Baron has negative utility: it signals that your followers are doing it for vanity points and not for coordination.

I suppose there is one good reason to want to have followers: the follower badges are easy to recognize.

TL;DR:
Asking someone to follow you is asking them to give you status. People don't like that. The improvement in communication efficiency is not worth the relationship damage.

There are two ways to fix this.
1. Remove the extra perceived status. For example, replace the titles with neutral "Alice, follower of Bob, leader of 4".
2. Give the leaders something to reward their followers with. Mentioned in previous threads, an ability to approve their followers as their representatives might help.

Kinrany · 2019-12-26 17:10:28

I forgot to update the title.

The initial idea was that, in the absence of material goods to share, the leaders could give status to their followers. Hence "inverted hierarchy".

coriander · 2019-12-26 18:29:34

People don't willingly subject themselves to a position of submission that yields no benefits? I'm shocked, SHOCKED!

testo · 2019-12-26 18:47:22

Kinrany wrote:

I forgot to update the title.
The initial idea was that, in the absence of material goods to share, the leaders could give status to their followers. Hence "inverted hierarchy".

hey
that´s not how the force works!?!

DiscardedSlinky · 2019-12-26 19:13:00

Shocking that everyone wants to be a leader and not a follower. A truly unforeseeable event.

happynova · 2019-12-26 21:19:36

I've had a number of people randomly walk up to me and ask me to follow them, or to follow someone else. My response is almost always "why?", whereupon I wait for them to say something like "because Im trying to organize tasks in town" or "so they can pass along important information." So far, nobody ever has. It's always been "because having a king is cool" or "so my kid can be a baron" or something.

But I live in hope that one day I'll hear the right answer from someone, one that isn't about the illusion of status, and then they'll get my follow.

Mekkie · 2019-12-26 23:22:36

I think children should automatically be marked as followers to their mothers... then the mother could easily designate tasks and give orders (especially eves, would be so nice!). If i saw some family working really efficiently and being productive, even as an outsider id be inclined to follow them just to join the well oiled machine... then the hierarchy would build itself based on the success of its founders.

jcwilk · 2019-12-26 23:59:03

Yet another +1 for bbs to follow mama

Gogo · 2019-12-27 00:27:10

I don't know why you think that way. I've seen a lot of people that received what they asked for, like be higher in hierarchy, even if they spent 2/3 of their lives on persuading people to follow.

You asked me in another topic about my method for become leader, so these things helps:

1. people follow bold people who ask directly what they want

2. you need to have fancy clothes on. fully dressed. nobody wants to follow poor people

3. crown is also great magnet. sometimes people just start to ask 'are you queen/king? (yes) cool' and they will follow you

4. being in group (in lowest rank) is also some way to receive followers. it's just because of badge. I do it too, I'm following people just because they have some badge, I wanna be part of their group (I also switch to follow better ranks to see the orders).

So being without clothes, without family, don't asking for followers, just do stuff won't give you any followers. It's like in real life, be rich, famous, good looking and people will join you. It's not about working in the first place.. but if you do some work once you get the followers people will mainly appreciate it (if place is not too crowded and they can judge others).

Last edited by Gogo (2019-12-27 00:28:42)

Villas · 2019-12-27 00:32:43

It makes sense, but it also has its positive sides.
Today I was in the rail town, I travelled west and a Baron with an actual crown was making a big road, I started helping and did it until he died, a girl was helping us too, when he died he followed me and gave me the crown, me and the girl kept working until she got a baby, she followed me and ran back to rail town, years later another woman passed by me, saw me working and followed me.
When I was fifty five I knew I couldn’t finish the road, so I used the order and said something like “Who wants to be heir help me west road”, I went to to the town and came back and quickly a group of people went there to help me, they were working together very quickly I and chose a boy name Judge to be the heir. Next life I was born there again and went to check when I was five and the road was almost finished and I was his follower already because my mother was a daughter of the girl who were helping me and the old man, so all their descendants auto follow.

If well used, we can make things happen very quickly using the order system, principally when a woman follows you, that means her children, grandchildren... will follow you and follow your heir when you choose one.

Punkypal · 2019-12-27 00:51:12

I asked people to follow me once. I was coordinating efforts to undo griefing of an oil well by surrounding it with waystones. I was going to be an elder in about 5 minutes and wanted to be able to call all people to the well when I was old enough to sign the removal slip. I wanted to be sure someone came that had a tool slot available to use a pencil (still stupid that pencils require a tool slot). I got 3 or 4 followers and that was enough. I ruled for all of 7-8 minutes.

fug · 2019-12-27 02:34:33

Roleplay update was a roleplay update. Who would have thought making people get titles for essentially pressing a thumbs up did nothing?

Probably should think through suggestions through the lens of how the game is played and not artsy fartsy ideas.

Toxolotl · 2019-12-27 02:39:07

Yea its worthless. I hope it doesnt get touched and is left in the cold like the war peace nonsense.

DiscardedSlinky · 2019-12-27 03:07:37

I don't think this update was a bad overall. Yes it's just an RP element, but it doesn't hurt anything.

fug · 2019-12-27 06:59:39

I don't think there's a problem to adding fluff updates to the game but sticking your head up your own butt and expecting some magic to occur because of it is silly. Anyone who plays knew the update wouldn't do jack besides add to the arr-pee.

It's okay to have roleplay updates.
It's okay to have useful updates.

It's just plain dumb to expect roleplay updates to shake up the game.

Kinrany · 2019-12-27 10:42:55

Facebook is also just a social network that doesn't do anything. Somehow it's worth almost 100 billion.
The christian church in the US is also just roleplay, according to the rest of the world. 30+ billion.
Harvard, another 30+ billion. Also completely worthless without its reputation and current staff.

Social technology is a thing.

But it is true that at least most of my predictions failed:

kinrany wrote:

1. People will actually have a single hierarchy in most villages after 3 generations
2. People will ask leaders for jobs
3. People will report griefers to leaders
4. Dealing with griefers who aren't leaders will be easier
5. Super-leaders will know more about the state of the village than other people
6. Super-leaders will help people coordinate
7. Super-leaders won't have any time for roleplay

We do have examples where leadership has been useful. Clearly it has some effect. But it's also used for roleplay, and the resulting structures do not survive for long.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-12-26 16:44:14

Inverted hierarchy

#2 2019-12-26 17:10:28

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#3 2019-12-26 18:29:34

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#4 2019-12-26 18:47:22

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#5 2019-12-26 19:13:00

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#6 2019-12-26 21:19:36

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#7 2019-12-26 23:22:36

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#8 2019-12-26 23:59:03

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#9 2019-12-27 00:27:10

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#10 2019-12-27 00:32:43

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#11 2019-12-27 00:51:12

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#12 2019-12-27 02:34:33

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#13 2019-12-27 02:39:07

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#14 2019-12-27 03:07:37

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#15 2019-12-27 06:59:39

Re: Inverted hierarchy

#16 2019-12-27 10:42:55

Re: Inverted hierarchy

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