What's Up With The Soil Change?

Spoonwood · 2019-12-19 00:38:46

It's no longer possible to till a 2 dirt soil pile. I really don't understand this.

Tilling a 1 dirt soil pile over and over again requires more tools to till over time.

Tilling a 3 dirt soil pile over and over again requires more soil. Usually, that means more composting.

The 2 dirt soil meta still required composting (or lots of running/riding to soil pits in principle) and tool usage. It still required crafting. And more farming in principle was viable with the 2 dirt soil pile. Larger farms were possible than what is possible now. So, I can't see how removing the ability to till a 2 dirt soil pile increased the potential of civilization building. More like it shrunk civilization building potential. Shrinking civilization building potential, with nothing else changing, just doesn't fit with a game that is supposed to be about civilization building.

And even worse, there do exist ways to squander soil. I won't go into those details. But, now since it's either 1 soil or 3 soil, it seems like the soil supply is more fragile to getting griefed or the supply of skewers/iron is more fragile to getting griefed. And griefers have no shame about using every tool that they can in their playbook.

Like, I do understand the complaint about not be able to farm in the arctic, but I don't think it was desired that everyone else's farming practices turn into a worse situation.

So I have to wonder, what good is removing the 2 dirt soil pile from possible tilling?

Have I missed something?

DestinyCall · 2019-12-19 00:46:35

No, you haven't missed anything. Unfortunately, it isn't a bug. It is Jason's Will.

Here is a link to the official explanation:

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … d=8695&p=5

It feels weird and wrong to me.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-19 00:49:35)

arkajalka · 2019-12-19 01:10:10

Theres really almost never lack of tools, towns have usually ton of iron and in eve camps you got acces to ton of skewers for tilling.

So tilling one soil should be still meta even if tilling 2 soils would be possible.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-19 01:29:34

My biggest problem is that it is a pain in the ass to convince someone to keep making hoes for me. We have plenty of iron, usually. If no one is actively working the forge, it takes a while to find someone who has the necessary skill set.

I miss the time before tool slots.

...

Steel hoe should really have more uses. They break more than any other steel tool and RNG can kill them faster than a skewer. I've seriously had one break after six uses.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-19 01:31:13)

arkajalka · 2019-12-19 01:37:09

DestinyCall wrote:

My biggest problem is that it is a pain in the ass to convince someone to keep making hoes for me. We have plenty of iron, usually. If no one is actively working the forge, it takes a while to find someone who has the necessary skill set.
I miss the time before tool slots.
...
Steel hoe should really have more uses. They break more than any other steel tool and RNG can kill them faster than a skewer. I've seriously had one break after six uses.

Yap i feel that. Just thought about making a run and spamming ton of shovels, hoes, axes and some chisels/froes. Dont get it when people smith they just do few tools or tools on demand. We should have shit ton of the basic tool available all time if not low on iron.

I mean c'mon smiths do your craft!

fug · 2019-12-19 01:39:57

arkajalka wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
My biggest problem is that it is a pain in the ass to convince someone to keep making hoes for me. We have plenty of iron, usually. If no one is actively working the forge, it takes a while to find someone who has the necessary skill set.
I miss the time before tool slots.
...
Steel hoe should really have more uses. They break more than any other steel tool and RNG can kill them faster than a skewer. I've seriously had one break after six uses.
Yap i feel that. Just thought about making a run and spamming ton of shovels, hoes, axes and some chisels/froes. Dont get it when people smith they just do few tools or tools on demand. We should have shit ton of the basic tool available all time if not low on iron.
I mean c'mon smiths do your craft!

Why would you ever make extra froes? Nothing makes me cringe more than a bunch of extra froes and adzes just sitting around existing forever.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-19 01:41:30

You might as well just spam hoes and shovels.

The other tools are usually fine, as long as you can easily locate two of them in a quick run around the village. They will eventually break, but shovel/hoe is going to break in the next ten to twenty minutes. Froe/adze is going to break in the next ten to twenty hours, unless you have a crazy builder. Axes break or get lost more frequently, but they are less critical compared with shovel/hoe. Making chisels can usually wait until someone needs them. Chisels are never urgently needed, in my experience.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-19 01:45:49)

Spoonwood · 2019-12-19 04:08:11

fug wrote:

Why would you ever make extra froes? Nothing makes me cringe more than a bunch of extra froes and adzes just sitting around existing forever.

So I told an experienced low pop player who is not me and who has a large well-organized city about the pine floor change and she told me she knew, that wooden floors look better. I think I agree with her on that. Pein has argued elsewhere that we shouldn't underestimate motivation. Also, I constantly see players on streams not wearing shoes at all. So, if you're going to make a lot of buckets, carts, wood flooring, and clogs, extra froes and adzes make sense. But sure, if they sit around forever, that seems rather silly.

fug · 2019-12-19 04:26:01

Spoonwood wrote:

fug wrote:
Why would you ever make extra froes? Nothing makes me cringe more than a bunch of extra froes and adzes just sitting around existing forever.
So I told an experienced low pop player who is not me and who has a large well-organized city about the pine floor change and she told me she knew, that wooden floors look better. I think I agree with her on that. Pein has argued elsewhere that we shouldn't underestimate motivation. Also, I constantly see players on streams not wearing shoes at all. So, if you're going to make a lot of buckets, carts, wood flooring, and clogs, extra froes and adzes make sense. But sure, if they sit around forever, that seems rather silly.

One froe averages 101 uses hence why they last so fucking long. Same goes with the adze though at least in its case to make a shoe requires two uses vs one. It's not very reasonable at all to make multiple froes because of this and the adze might as well not have extras on hand.

Extra froes are for people who don't use the search function on mods.
Extra adzes are for lazy people too.

Make extra shovels/hoes/axes and the rest should be on demand minus maybe files.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-19 04:43:09

fug wrote:

One froe averages 101 uses hence why they last so fucking long. Same goes with the adze though at least in its case to make a shoe requires two uses vs one. It's not very reasonable at all to make multiple froes because of this and the adze might as well not have extras on hand.

The froe breaking is rng. I've definitely broken a froe long before 101 uses easy. That was for flooring off my farms, for buckets, for I think two horsecarts, and for my 9x9 forge. I think my first froe broke before farms were floored.

In Wisteria, the city that the player who I mentioned before, there's flooring all around the farms, flooring inside the pottery building which is like 5x5 (for the interior), flooring inside the medical room which is like 4x4 I think, flooring inside of the forge which is 9x9 I think, flooring inside of the clothing room which I think is 5x5, flooring inside of the bakery which is like 7x6, flooring inside of the food storage room which is like 6x20, flooring inside of the nursery which is like 5x4. Then there's several boxes that she has around in various buildings. And fewer horsecarts than an advanced town would have on bs2.

Edit: I forgot about all the doors also, which require 2 boards each.

Sure, on bs2 with water crises and roleplayers on top of new players taking on large scale building doesn't seem likely to happen. But, if a group did take on a large town wide building project, there could exist good reason for many froes to exist.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-19 04:53:41)

Spoonwood · 2019-12-19 05:02:32

Also, I seem to remember that San-Cal had two rather large building structures at least. I have to wonder how many boards, buckets, and carts they made... well something like a year ago now... and how many froes they used up over time.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-19 05:20:57

Mekkie wrote:

Using a hoe on dirt with no effect is broken, regardless of how many piles are there. It feels like a bug, even if its not. At least make it take 2 tills, so it doesn't feel like a mistake. Please. Don't worry about hurting poor noobs feelings, our mothers will teach us the right amount to use, whether its 1, 2 or 3. There are lots of things in this game that chase noobs away, tilling 2 piles of soil is not one of them.
Edit: Somehow replying to a soil topic replied to this one? Awkward...

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … d=8695&p=6

Toxolotl · 2019-12-19 05:53:38

Yea i really dont get the soil change. Water is more expensive than ever. Soil is more expensive than ever. Separating soil literally serves no purpose unless you are double tapping single piles. Biomes play no role in terms of soil usage. Im all for removing the noob trap but wouldnt it make more sense to make baskets 2 stack piles and compost and soil deposits have 33% more so that mistake is impossible unless you use bowls to make them three. Which would only be necessary in the snow biome.

If it was intentional fine but its come at a bad time. Between water, tool slots and biome restrictions we really didnt need another limiter before those are properly balanced.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-19 06:00:06

Toxolotl wrote:

If it was intentional fine but its come at a bad time.

It's intentional. See here: https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/464 My question concerns the expected benefit of this change. I'm not imagining any.

I don't think that a change would get made just to troll the playerbase. But if it were, I think that would be a counter-productive business practice.

And again, as far as I can see this new system just makes camps more fragile to griefing.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-19 06:52:18)

DestinyCall · 2019-12-19 07:22:49

I don't think Jason is trolling us. That implies he is tormenting us on purpose and I believe he is genuinely trying to improve the game.

But I do think he is rather painfully out of touch with what people actually want/need.

fug · 2019-12-19 07:33:02

DestinyCall wrote:

I don't think Jason is trolling us. That implies he is tormenting us on purpose and I believe he is genuinely trying to improve the game.
But I do think he is rather painfully out of touch with what people actually want/need.

Yeah, I don't think he's purposely out of touch so much so as he's out of touch via just not playing the game. It's no different from how players like me who sunk 2k hours into the game can have issues understanding how new players have issues. He plays the game one way, and can't see how we see things.

arkajalka · 2019-12-19 09:03:42

fug wrote:

arkajalka wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:
My biggest problem is that it is a pain in the ass to convince someone to keep making hoes for me. We have plenty of iron, usually. If no one is actively working the forge, it takes a while to find someone who has the necessary skill set.
I miss the time before tool slots.
...
Steel hoe should really have more uses. They break more than any other steel tool and RNG can kill them faster than a skewer. I've seriously had one break after six uses.
Yap i feel that. Just thought about making a run and spamming ton of shovels, hoes, axes and some chisels/froes. Dont get it when people smith they just do few tools or tools on demand. We should have shit ton of the basic tool available all time if not low on iron.
I mean c'mon smiths do your craft!
Why would you ever make extra froes? Nothing makes me cringe more than a bunch of extra froes and adzes just sitting around existing forever.

... SOME
Guess you build fugly ass pine flooring to everywhere. Its for freaking boards! Buckets, carts, doors, flooring, signs...

Mekkie · 2019-12-19 09:15:35

fug wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
I don't think Jason is trolling us. That implies he is tormenting us on purpose and I believe he is genuinely trying to improve the game.
But I do think he is rather painfully out of touch with what people actually want/need.
Yeah, I don't think he's purposely out of touch so much so as he's out of touch via just not playing the game. It's no different from how players like me who sunk 2k hours into the game can have issues understanding how new players have issues. He plays the game one way, and can't see how we see things.

As a new player, I thought it was a bug. I came here to report it and saw topics saying its intentional. If i hadn't come here, i would continue to think that it was bugged. I'm all for balance changes, 1 pile, 3 pile, whichever is best i'm fine with... just having a hoe + soil do nothing feels like it's missing it's interaction.

sigmen4020 · 2019-12-19 10:11:59

Mekkie wrote:

fug wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:
I don't think Jason is trolling us. That implies he is tormenting us on purpose and I believe he is genuinely trying to improve the game.
But I do think he is rather painfully out of touch with what people actually want/need.
Yeah, I don't think he's purposely out of touch so much so as he's out of touch via just not playing the game. It's no different from how players like me who sunk 2k hours into the game can have issues understanding how new players have issues. He plays the game one way, and can't see how we see things.

As a new player, I thought it was a bug. I came here to report it and saw topics saying its intentional. If i hadn't come here, i would continue to think that it was bugged. I'm all for balance changes, 1 pile, 3 pile, whichever is best i'm fine with... just having a hoe + soil do nothing feels like it's missing it's interaction.

Yea, why even keep the two soil piles in the game when they are completely pointless now. That made it seem like a bug to most of us. Especially since tilling 2 soil mysteriously still works when using a weak skewer. Even if it is intentional, the implementation certainly doesn’t make it seem that way.

arkajalka · 2019-12-19 13:39:22

So i made set of 6 hoes, 6shovels, 4axes, 3 chisels, froe, 7stacks of tracks, 1track kit and a kraut board.

and got cursed by morons cause i stabbed a dude who was forging towns 51st knife.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Never gonna work for belltowns anymore.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-19 14:23:05

arkajalka wrote:

So i made set of 6 hoes, 6shovels, 4axes, 3 chisels, froe, 7stacks of tracks, 1track kit and a kraut board.
and got cursed by morons cause i stabbed a dude who was forging towns 51st knife.
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Never gonna work for belltowns anymore.

For once this seems like a legitimate use of a REEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

And I agree with you that more than one froe can have a place, and about wooden floors over pine floors, at least when iron isn't pressing for other things.

DestinyCall · 2019-12-19 17:40:55

Mekkie wrote:

fug wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:
I don't think Jason is trolling us. That implies he is tormenting us on purpose and I believe he is genuinely trying to improve the game.
But I do think he is rather painfully out of touch with what people actually want/need.
Yeah, I don't think he's purposely out of touch so much so as he's out of touch via just not playing the game. It's no different from how players like me who sunk 2k hours into the game can have issues understanding how new players have issues. He plays the game one way, and can't see how we see things.

As a new player, I thought it was a bug. I came here to report it and saw topics saying its intentional. If i hadn't come here, i would continue to think that it was bugged. I'm all for balance changes, 1 pile, 3 pile, whichever is best i'm fine with... just having a hoe + soil do nothing feels like it's missing it's interaction.

As an old player, I also thought it was a bug.

I think there's a real problem with any "feature" that registers as a bug to everyone who plays the game.

Saolin · 2019-12-19 20:48:47

My feeling is it was an accident initially, that became intentional when Jason decided to leave it as is instead of fixing it.

fug · 2019-12-19 21:13:12

Saolin wrote:

My feeling is it was an accident initially, that became intentional when Jason decided to leave it as is instead of fixing it.

Pretty much this.

Basically he added a biome restriction that was bypassed by either two hitting, three hitting or planting things that didn't leave shallow rows. Someone reported this bug and I explicitly asked for it to come back because it allowed for little winter towns to exist (which imo are neat little places compared to all the boring samey town types.)

He then updated it to accept tilling of 1 or 3 in arctic BUT removed the two hitting because you need to add extra soil since you have to import all the soil which seemed reasonable. Unfortunately, then he decided he just wanted soil to be 1 or 3 because he didn't want to fix the issue then passed it off as fixing a noob trap.

3 soil tilling was only meta at the games very very early stages where people were carrying water to soil instead of soil to water via water skins. 2 tills existed as a means of saving soil once the meta was established to make your bowls right away and start farming after which made 3 soil tilling a new player trap.

We had talked about doing something like

3 soil = arctic farming
2 soil = iron efficiency
1 soil = soil efficiency

But then he just decided to not remove the biome restriction thing and removed 2 soil tilling from the game.

sigmen4020 · 2019-12-19 21:16:37

fug wrote:

Saolin wrote:
My feeling is it was an accident initially, that became intentional when Jason decided to leave it as is instead of fixing it.
Pretty much this.
Basically he added a biome restriction that was bypassed by either two hitting, three hitting or planting things that didn't leave shallow rows. Someone reported this bug and I explicitly asked for it to come back because it allowed for little winter towns to exist (which imo are neat little places compared to all the boring samey town types.)
He then updated it to accept tilling of 1 or 3 in arctic BUT removed the two hitting because you need to add extra soil since you have to import all the soil which seemed reasonable. Unfortunately, then he decided he just wanted soil to be 1 or 3 because he didn't want to fix the issue then passed it off as fixing a noob trap.
3 soil tilling was only meta at the games very very early stages where people were carrying water to soil instead of soil to water via water skins. 2 tills existed as a means of saving soil once the meta was established to make your bowls right away and start farming after which made 3 soil tilling a new player trap.
We had talked about doing something like
3 soil = arctic farming
2 soil = iron efficiency
1 soil = soil efficiency
But then he just decided to not remove the biome restriction thing and removed 2 soil tilling from the game.

That weak skewer tilling though

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-12-19 00:38:46

What's Up With The Soil Change?

#2 2019-12-19 00:46:35

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#3 2019-12-19 01:10:10

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#4 2019-12-19 01:29:34

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#5 2019-12-19 01:37:09

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#6 2019-12-19 01:39:57

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#7 2019-12-19 01:41:30

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#8 2019-12-19 04:08:11

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#9 2019-12-19 04:26:01

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#10 2019-12-19 04:43:09

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#11 2019-12-19 05:02:32

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#12 2019-12-19 05:20:57

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#13 2019-12-19 05:53:38

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#14 2019-12-19 06:00:06

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#15 2019-12-19 07:22:49

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#16 2019-12-19 07:33:02

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#17 2019-12-19 09:03:42

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#18 2019-12-19 09:15:35

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#19 2019-12-19 10:11:59

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#20 2019-12-19 13:39:22

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#21 2019-12-19 14:23:05

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#22 2019-12-19 17:40:55

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#23 2019-12-19 20:48:47

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#24 2019-12-19 21:13:12

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

#25 2019-12-19 21:16:37

Re: What's Up With The Soil Change?

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