Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

Kinrany · 2019-12-10 20:51:14

jcwilk wrote:

Find me a successful game where major design decisions are delegated to the players which isn't some superficial fluff like 8bit mmo.

Counterpoint, space station 13 is mostly designed by coders coding cool stuff and players migrating to the servers where the new cool stuff doesn't break gameplay

(I agree though)

Twisted · 2019-12-10 20:56:04

jcwilk wrote:

Design by committee is a terrible idea. Brainstorming is fine, making suggestions is fine, making complaints is fine, but if you leave the final call up to players then you'll immediately get a broken nonsense game. Find me a successful game where major design decisions are delegated to the players which isn't some superficial fluff like 8bit mmo.
Believe it or not, there's a difference between gamers and game designers

This 100%

Letting players decide what to do add is a great way to make a horrible game.

Starknight_One · 2019-12-10 21:22:54

JonySky wrote:

I'm already sharpening my knife ... I can't wait to kill monarchs!
Creating any advanced object in OHOL has become a nightmare ... the skill boxes and the limitation of races is odious for an advanced player ... from now on I will devote myself to raising wild pigs and killing monarchs!

Eve Manson of the SLA (Swine Liberation Army), I presume?

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 21:33:50

Kinrany wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
Find me a successful game where major design decisions are delegated to the players which isn't some superficial fluff like 8bit mmo.
Counterpoint, space station 13 is mostly designed by coders coding cool stuff and players migrating to the servers where the new cool stuff doesn't break gameplay
(I agree though)

Space station 13 also got originally released in 2003. According to Wikipedia, it seems more popular than OHOL, and it looks like it has surged in popularity after periods of much lesser numbers. It kind of blows the whole notion of games necessarily eventually declining in popularity over time out of the water, or seems to.

Why successful games don't do well from player input may well have to do more with gamers having a preference to game over code, and things like not having proprietary rights to develop games, and lack of marketing, then gamers having bad ideas.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-10 21:35:48

Twisted wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
Design by committee is a terrible idea. Brainstorming is fine, making suggestions is fine, making complaints is fine, but if you leave the final call up to players then you'll immediately get a broken nonsense game. Find me a successful game where major design decisions are delegated to the players which isn't some superficial fluff like 8bit mmo.
Believe it or not, there's a difference between gamers and game designers
This 100%
Letting players decide what to do add is a great way to make a horrible game.

It's very easy to say and believe something like that without having a solid foundation for making such a claim.

jcwilk · 2019-12-11 00:45:45

Kinrany wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
Find me a successful game where major design decisions are delegated to the players which isn't some superficial fluff like 8bit mmo.
Counterpoint, space station 13 is mostly designed by coders coding cool stuff and players migrating to the servers where the new cool stuff doesn't break gameplay
(I agree though)

An interesting example, and it reminds me that I still haven't really figured out why with so many clearly intelligent, passionate, and motivated members of the OHOL community there aren't more player run servers out there given that everything is open source... Like I don't get how Jason isn't concerned about losing money to this and how he doesn't. Not to criticize his hard lean towards open source at all, I'm as big a proponent of open source as they come and am thrilled that everything is open, just curious about how he manages to not make it conflict with his need for revenue.

Edit: also I haven't been paying attention to what's going on with bs2 and 2hol... Are those community servers or just his own experiments? Is there a listing of community servers somewhere if they exist?
Like is there not a community edition of the OHOL server repository somewhere? Is that against some license he uses or something? I suppose I could dig through the code to try to answer these questions but I assume someone has these answers off the top of their head...

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-11 00:47:39)

Toxolotl · 2019-12-11 01:42:28

http://onehouronelife.com/reflector/ser … ion=report

Not sure if this is what you're looking for. BS2 is short for big server 2 which most players are set to spawn to. 2hol is separate and i dont keep up with the goings on with it either. Heres a link that should give you an idea.

https://twohoursonelife.com/

Last edited by Toxolotl (2019-12-11 01:45:56)

jcwilk · 2019-12-11 01:59:22

Toxolotl wrote:

http://onehouronelife.com/reflector/ser … ion=report
Not sure if this is what you're looking for. BS2 is short for big server 2 which most players are set to spawn to. 2hol is separate and i dont keep up with the goings on with it either. Heres a link that should give you an idea.
https://twohoursonelife.com/

Got it, thanks for the info and links. I knew what it stood for but I thought it was not the main server from the "2". Interesting about 2hol, looks like they're accepting money for it also which makes sense given server costs but seems a little complicated given that presumably 99% of the code is borrowed, but I guess that's typically how open source stuff works just not as used to seeing it in games. Cool stuff

Spoonwood · 2019-12-11 02:13:20

jcwilk wrote:

An interesting example, and it reminds me that I still haven't really figured out why with so many clearly intelligent, passionate, and motivated members of the OHOL community there aren't more player run servers out there given that everything is open source... Like I don't get how Jason isn't concerned about losing money to this and how he doesn't. Not to criticize his hard lean towards open source at all, I'm as big a proponent of open source as they come and am thrilled that everything is open, just curious about how he manages to not make it conflict with his need for revenue.

Well, if I recall correctly, Jason was planning to sue the OHOL for mobile people before they rebranded it as You Are Hope and did some other things.

It might be relevant to put these links here:

One City Server: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4868

Community Crucible Mod: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6794

WalrusesConquer · 2019-12-11 07:38:57

I mean at least crowns have a use now right? We always complain that Jason never listens and then we complain that he does! At the end of the day, I could see a bunch of berry farmers revolting against a powerhungry king and if no one likes the update then crowns wont be made.
Don't quit Bs2 over optional gameplay!

Lum · 2019-12-11 08:06:38

Hey, could we just try it? I'm not in favor of this system either but y'all sound like babies who refuse to eat something before having even tasted it, only because it theoretically is bad. Let's just try it for a hot second.

jcwilk · 2019-12-11 08:36:04

Spoonwood wrote:

jcwilk wrote:
An interesting example, and it reminds me that I still haven't really figured out why with so many clearly intelligent, passionate, and motivated members of the OHOL community there aren't more player run servers out there given that everything is open source... Like I don't get how Jason isn't concerned about losing money to this and how he doesn't. Not to criticize his hard lean towards open source at all, I'm as big a proponent of open source as they come and am thrilled that everything is open, just curious about how he manages to not make it conflict with his need for revenue.
Well, if I recall correctly, Jason was planning to sue the OHOL for mobile people before they rebranded it as You Are Hope and did some other things.
It might be relevant to put these links here:
One City Server: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4868
Community Crucible Mod: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6794

Huh delicate line i guess re: lawsuit.

Thanks for the links! I take back my spoonwood shittalkings

sigmen4020 · 2019-12-11 09:03:32

Lum wrote:

Hey, could we just try it? I'm not in favor of this system either but y'all sound like babies who refuse to eat something before having even tasted it, only because it theoretically is bad. Let's just try it for a hot second.

I'm willing to give it a shot. But I'm not gonna get my hopes up.

Spoonwood · 2019-12-11 10:05:57

WalrusesConquer wrote:

Don't quit Bs2 over optional gameplay!

I haven't played on bs2 since July, and didn't play again elsewhere until this November. I don't have any interest in the racial restrictions. I hadn't thought through all of the bad effects of that and still haven't. I watched Alec stream recently in a pseudo-Eve camp, I think, and he went out to get stones for the well. I'm watching and he gets some and then there exist some on screen i in a desert. And then he has to walk further than before to get round stones. That has NOTHING to do with trading or any of the desired goals of the racial restrictions as I recall them... here's the relevant link: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8377 It really doesn't feel right that blacks, browns, and pales have gotten blocked from growing rose bushes. And races have gotten blocked from grabbing bananas or cactus fruits. Wild food yum was already low beforehand. And that potential got even worse for plenty of players.

Also, Alec made a shovel and axe. He couldn't use either. Alright, someone who uses an axe can use it a bunch. Seems alright. But, they didn't have a sheep pen. With round stones on a well, he just left the shovel there. He ran around to ponds to get water then. If he had convinced someone else to dig up a well, I'm not sure that the individual who did so could have used the shovel again productively (which isn't to say that someone like Pein or Tarr couldn't). It didn't seem to me that they need to dig up tree stumps, and it's less iron used to use an axe only to make kindling. They didn't have a sheep pen up. They didn't have shears. They didn't have a knife. They didn't have a wheat farm. Alright, the person could have dug up tule stumps. But, people who know that seemed rare when I had a better read on what players know. I recall encountering experienced low pop players who had no idea about digging up tule stumps for adobe. I don't think it seems right that a new player would use a tool slot like that and have little productive that they could do with it. Then again, maybe it's better to throw the new player out into swamp who has no zoom to dig up adobe and make baskets? That sounded alright to me, until I thought about the boars in the swamp.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-11 10:19:58)

Spoonwood · 2019-12-11 10:16:29

Lum wrote:

Hey, could we just try it? I'm not in favor of this system either but y'all sound like babies who refuse to eat something before having even tasted it, only because it theoretically is bad. Let's just try it for a hot second.

It's a game and I get to choose whether I play or not. I'm not going to suffer in real life from not playing a computer game or not playing it in some particular way. Also, bs2, short for bigserver2 is not all of OHOL, nor all of public OHOL.

Killing family members, especially fertile girls and women, isn't *just* theoretically bad. It may be better than alternatives, if one insists on living in one spot. Killing griefers is still bad, though it may be better than alternatives. It seems extremely certain that killing of fertile girls and women has doomed lineages in certain instances. The proposal clearly calls for killing of family members with a *formal* backing behind it on the basis of merely having gotten exiled, which just means some words said by something else. So, there existed a clear call for bad things to happen. At least for those using the system, if Jason agreed with that part (and from my read he did). And someone will use it on bs2 in that way, but that person will not be me.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-11 10:39:29)

Kinrany · 2019-12-11 14:40:59

jcwick wrote:

An interesting example, and it reminds me that I still haven't really figured out why with so many clearly intelligent, passionate, and motivated members of the OHOL community there aren't more player run servers out there given that everything is open source...

It's still not an easy thing to do, especially for free. And you'd have to keep up with Jason's upstream changes.

I kinda dream that we'll get a community project that reimplements the whole game as two separate projects: the engine and the game logic. And that Jason will start using the community engine and focus on new ideas. And that a whole ecosystem of interoperable game mechanics will spring up around the engine.
But OneLife is already at 100k LoC, so that's not an easy task.

More realistically, I expect more community projects to pop up once Jason is happy with OHOL and moves on to the next game.

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2019-12-10 20:51:14

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#27 2019-12-10 20:56:04

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#28 2019-12-10 21:22:54

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#29 2019-12-10 21:33:50

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#30 2019-12-10 21:35:48

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#31 2019-12-11 00:45:45

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#32 2019-12-11 01:42:28

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#33 2019-12-11 01:59:22

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#34 2019-12-11 02:13:20

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#35 2019-12-11 07:38:57

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#36 2019-12-11 08:06:38

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#37 2019-12-11 08:36:04

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#38 2019-12-11 09:03:32

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#39 2019-12-11 10:05:57

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#40 2019-12-11 10:16:29

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

#41 2019-12-11 14:40:59

Re: Another Reason Why I Won't Be Playing on BS2

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