Coming soon: way stones

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-21 07:08:57

Inspired by SirCaio's excellent suggestion.

You make one by chiseling an existing paper map into a stone block. The existing map is NOT destroyed in the process.

The way stone remains new for 10 minutes, during which time it can be erased with more chiseling, turning it back into a moveable block.

After 10 minutes, it becomes permanent. After that, the 2-person elder removal notice process (like fence removal) can remove it (that process takes 10 minutes, and can be interrupted by someone who wants to keep the waystone).

After 10 hours, it becomes ancient. Then no one can remove it.

You can use a way stone in two ways:

1. Touch it to set your MAP home marker to the destination of the way stone.

2. Use a blank paper map and charcoal pencil on it to copy its destination onto another paper map.

You're "memory" of the destination specified by a way stone lasts as long as your memory of a paper map that you're no longer holding (60 seconds). The destination can also be used as a flight destination for the plane (just like a paper map).

For longer trips with way stones (where the destination is more than 60 seconds away), multiple stones can be used like way points. First stone leads to second stone, etc.

The way stone also clones whatever name the original map had, and the person reading the way stone speaks this out loud upon touching it.

This is like a sign, but with the added benefit of a destination attached too.

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-21 07:35:32

Yes, it makes a complete copy of the map.

The "map" is actually implemented server-side as a piece of writing with coordinates embedded in it.

So the copies of a map aren't even copies, really, just extra pointers to the same piece of metadata in the database. Which is nice, because it means that copies of maps don't flood the database with duplicate metadata.

Spoonwood · 2019-11-21 07:49:58

I'm concerned that this will lead to inter-family griefing where one person from one family will grief others from another family easily with little negative consequence. Since knowing you Jason, you'll probably go with this change despite any warning, I think time will tell.

fug · 2019-11-21 07:51:17

Spoonwood wrote:

I'm concerned that this will lead to inter-family griefing where one person from one family will grief others from another family easily with little negative consequence. Since knowing you Jason, you'll probably go with this change despite any warning, I think time will tell.

Something something I cant actually understand.

sigmen4020 · 2019-11-21 08:02:24

Spoonwood wrote:

I'm concerned that this will lead to inter-family griefing where one person from one family will grief others from another family easily with little negative consequence. Since knowing you Jason, you'll probably go with this change despite any warning, I think time will tell.

I can't honestly see how this update could lead to the negative consequences outweighing the positive. If Jason is intent on keeping the controversial Family Specialization Update there better be an easier way to find other families. These way stones should theoretically help. Seems like a pretty inoffensive update to be upset about. If one person from another family griefs you just curse them. Interfamily cursing has been a thing for a while now.

JonySky · 2019-11-21 08:09:51

I see it interesting, but I must tell you that I see it complicated for explorers, and I'm afraid it will be one of those things that is rarely used

As I have understood well, an explorer will need a chisel, a shovel, a mallet, a blank map, a pencil ...

Maybe it can be used for the creator of roads, but not for the explorer who is the one who should make maps

Also days ago I commented that the maps based on markers are not practical

I'm sorry Jason, I think this won't work

Spoonwood · 2019-11-21 08:16:30

fug wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
I'm concerned that this will lead to inter-family griefing where one person from one family will grief others from another family easily with little negative consequence. Since knowing you Jason, you'll probably go with this change despite any warning, I think time will tell.
Something something I cant actually understand.

Alright, I'll try to re-explain it. One person from some Jones family will decide to find some Smith family and murder people in the Smith family, *with no positive benefits intended or plausibly resulting for members of the Jones family*. Or the Jones family member will try to make the Smith's family town harder to live in via some other griefing method. That will happen more than before.

JonySky · 2019-11-21 08:19:57

Anyway, if the exploration and use of maps is to be done through markers, I recommend something more comfortable for everyone (remember that we have 60 minutes to trade)
Use a blank map, a pencil and a knife ...

He will use the knife to make a mark on the firs
and with the map and the pencil in his hand he will write / mark (for example)

I think this option is more comfortable and agile for everyone

Last edited by JonySky (2019-11-21 08:27:46)

sigmen4020 · 2019-11-21 08:22:49

Spoonwood wrote:

fug wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
I'm concerned that this will lead to inter-family griefing where one person from one family will grief others from another family easily with little negative consequence. Since knowing you Jason, you'll probably go with this change despite any warning, I think time will tell.
Something something I cant actually understand.
Alright, I'll try to re-explain it. One person from some Jones family will decide to find some Smith family and murder people in the Smith family, *with no positive benefits intended or plausibly resulting for members of the Jones family*. Or the Jones family member will try to make the Smith's family town harder to live in via some other griefing method. That will happen more than before.

With the current Family Specialization update any family that's isolated will die out when they reach a dry well anyway. Also interfamily cursing is a thing. Curse that Jones family member just the same as you would anyone else. You need at least on ginger, brown and black family to reach the end game. Since this is a requirement for progress making it harder to find other families is counter-intuitive.

JonySky wrote:

I see it interesting, but I must tell you that I see it complicated for explorers, and I'm afraid it will be one of those things that is rarely used
As I have understood well, an explorer will need a chisel, a shovel, a mallet, a blank map, a pencil ...
Maybe it can be used for the creator of roads, but not for the explorer who is the one who should make maps
Also days ago I commented that the maps based on markers are not practical
I'm sorry Jason, I think this won't work

And I agree here. It's quite an expensive endeavour to boot. This update doesn't have any more potential to be abused by griefers anymore than any other inoffensive update.

Gomez · 2019-11-21 09:34:40

I don't think is meant as frontier exploration tool more as a means of preserving a map in a city from being tossed in the woods....ancient waystone in town can't be removed by griefer to lose pertinent destination. Also seems to be a method of establishing flight paths. It's a great idea imo.

Honestly if I want a temp marker or road to a location I use an axe and make a lumber road with cut trees. Cut an obvious tree every twenty or so tiles and even a non zoom player can track it.

Last edited by Gomez (2019-11-21 09:41:31)

sigmen4020 · 2019-11-21 09:44:55

Gomez wrote:

I don't think is meant as frontier exploration tool more as a means of preserving a map in a city from being tossed in the woods....ancient waystone in town can't be removed by griefer to lose pertinent destination. Also seems to be a method of establishing flight paths. It's a great idea imo.
Honestly if I want a temp marker or road to a location I use an axe and make a lumber road with cut trees. Cut an obvious tree every twenty or so tiles and even a non zoom player can track it.

True, as a beacon to important spots usually found as maps in town it can be good. Losing important maps is a problem that this could solve. However I think they will probably be too bothersome as a means to show other families where your town is.

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2019-11-21 09:45:36)

Kinrany · 2019-11-21 10:13:27

A big stone is also easier to notice than a piece of paper.

A zoom mod seems really necessary for efficient exploration though...

Kaveh · 2019-11-21 11:23:09

JonySky wrote:

I see it interesting, but I must tell you that I see it complicated for explorers, and I'm afraid it will be one of those things that is rarely used
As I have understood well, an explorer will need a chisel, a shovel, a mallet, a blank map, a pencil ...
Maybe it can be used for the creator of roads, but not for the explorer who is the one who should make maps
Also days ago I commented that the maps based on markers are not practical
I'm sorry Jason, I think this won't work

I think this isn't really for explorers, but for the next step. The explorer makes the initial maps, brings them back to town and then someone can decide to make it permanent (waystones in town with pointers to other towns, waystones out of town with pointers to home). I wouldn't say an explorer is responsible for making waystones, they're just gathering information and if that information is deemed worthwile it can be made permanent. Maps often get lost after a while, so this helps preserve the knowledge.

Exactly like you said, it's more for the roadbuilders than for the explorers. Building long roads is still needed for speed, but no longer for following a trail. The road is the next step, I would say. Put some waystones down to mark where the road will be and so people can follow them ASAP, then build the road after. You know how people sometimes put flat rock floors down but like 2-3 tiles apart from each other? That kinda stuff wouldn't be needed anymore and tbh it's ridiculous effort depending on the biomes you're moving through.

Explorers just need empty maps and a pencil/rubber ball like they did before, but now they can copy (ancient) waystones as well as just writing a new map. Running into an old waystone to a big abandoned town would be awesome.

JonySky · 2019-11-21 12:05:22

The problem with this is that trade should not depend on other generations, it should not be a generational job

The trade must be more agile (if we want to promote it)
The figure of the explorer must be able to find other cities and be able to show it to the next generations

If this task must be done by 2 or more people, it will rarely be used

MistressZues · 2019-11-21 14:23:40

Spoonwood wrote:

fug wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
I'm concerned that this will lead to inter-family griefing where one person from one family will grief others from another family easily with little negative consequence. Since knowing you Jason, you'll probably go with this change despite any warning, I think time will tell.
Something something I cant actually understand.
Alright, I'll try to re-explain it. One person from some Jones family will decide to find some Smith family and murder people in the Smith family, *with no positive benefits intended or plausibly resulting for members of the Jones family*. Or the Jones family member will try to make the Smith's family town harder to live in via some other griefing method. That will happen more than before.

Its OK that's where anti-griefers come into play. Every person I've ever murdered, quit alot, has been a griefer I ended ...... oo except my ethical killing spree for black family spawn purposes. lol

JonySky · 2019-11-21 14:36:23

Jason, let me explain the life I just lived, to analyze the current problems with commerce and cities

I was born in a family (brown skin) that had all the tools created but we were missing a newcomen pump
it was not still life or death, there was still water, but it was necessary to start creating the bomb

my mother (it was not new) assigned me this task and as soon as I could hold something in my hand I started working at the pump

first I had to ask someone to create the tower of stones since I was still too small to lift stones and luckily a city boy helped me with that
I finished the wooden top quickly and at that moment I could finish the metal parts of the pump

when I finished this part of the newcomen bomb I was about 27 years old and started having children

I told one of my daughters (who was not new) that we had the mission of finishing the newcomen pump
but after a while I saw her in the city with a child in her arms and cultivating
I understood that it would be a lonely task

This is when I decided to create a paper notes to request sulfide from other families
when I tried to put the bowl on the fire I had no more skills left and I spent about 5 minutes looking for someone
so that I only put the bowl in the ashes ... this was very frustrating and tedious

I could only make one note and I decided to write the message "i need sulfure"
It turns out that at this point I could not write anything on paper either because this also requires skills (really?)
I was another 5 minutes looking for a relative who wrote the message "i need sulfure"
finally a woman (a griefer) wrote on my paper "this note is rubbish" ...

As you can see, only with this part of the story you can already verify that this does not work ... but let's continue ...

I decided not to get angry and I set out to travel to find someone to sell me or change the precious sulfur (although I didn't understand myself)
by then I was about 40 years old
My city had no horses and I no longer had skills for that ... (hell if I could not even write a note, how could I make a horse with a car ?? !!)

I started traveling west, there I found 3 early (dead) camps with no one
and at 15K I found a pale-skinned family that had not started camp for a long time but had already sheep ...
logically I didn't have sulfur
This family understood me perfectly (because language does not affect them, I think this is a mistake)

I decided to leave there but I was 53 years old and I knew that even if I found another city, I could never come back with the sulfur
I died looking for other families totally alone and away and in the middle of nowhere

I would like you to try the Jason experience, try to do something similar to this and you will realize that the game is currently very unbalanced in many aspects

Last edited by JonySky (2019-11-21 14:42:35)

Spoonwood · 2019-11-21 15:33:19

JonySky wrote:

Jason, let me explain the life I just lived, to analyze the current problems with commerce and cities
I was born in a family (brown skin) that had all the tools created but we were missing a newcomen pump
it was not still life or death, there was still water, but it was necessary to start creating the bomb

Can't get the rubber up and you can't use any water to even make the attachments for the newcomen engine, let alone consume it for an oil rig, let alone complete an engine. Families clearly need a few buckets of water in reserve locally somewhere before even trading, or smiths need to run all around getting those buckets to get that water.

You think waystones will fail, a lot of people think belltowers will have more of an impact now to help this along, but they currently take 25 hours minimum to get up, which at 30 minutes per generation, is 50 generations, and at 20 minutes per generation, that's 75 generations. If belltowers were scaled back so that the 2nd-6th stages took 1 hour instead of 3 hours, and gold was available to everyone, it's 15 hours to get one up after the first stage gets laid. That's more in the range of 30-45 generations since the belltower gets laid. Alright, that's probably still too much time, isn't it? So scale back stages 2-6 to half an hour. That's 25-38 generations. Nope. I don't think that's fast enough, is it?

Alright, what if the belltower system was that stages 2-6 could immediately get put on the belltower after the first stage. That's a little more than hours. So, 20-30 generations maybe for belltowers to get up. Which I think seems like just enough time.

Any thoughts on that concept Jony?

Legs · 2019-11-21 16:18:10

Bell towers are only relevant for ancient cities. They don't work for this application. Even if there was no delay and you could just stack your tower only the ginger family can get gold and they're useless at getting rubber.

I think so far this update has proved everyone's worries that getting early game rubber for a newcomen pump will be impossible. Before the steam sale only a couple of towns managed to make it work, notably the four families mega city. Even then having four families in one place presents its own problem of overpopulation.

JonySky · 2019-11-21 17:24:14

Spoonwood wrote:

JonySky wrote:
Jason, let me explain the life I just lived, to analyze the current problems with commerce and cities
I was born in a family (brown skin) that had all the tools created but we were missing a newcomen pump
it was not still life or death, there was still water, but it was necessary to start creating the bomb
Can't get the rubber up and you can't use any water to even make the attachments for the newcomen engine, let alone consume it for an oil rig, let alone complete an engine. Families clearly need a few buckets of water in reserve locally somewhere before even trading, or smiths need to run all around getting those buckets to get that water.
You think waystones will fail, a lot of people think belltowers will have more of an impact now to help this along, but they currently take 25 hours minimum to get up, which at 30 minutes per generation, is 50 generations, and at 20 minutes per generation, that's 75 generations. If belltowers were scaled back so that the 2nd-6th stages took 1 hour instead of 3 hours, and gold was available to everyone, it's 15 hours to get one up after the first stage gets laid. That's more in the range of 30-45 generations since the belltower gets laid. Alright, that's probably still too much time, isn't it? So scale back stages 2-6 to half an hour. That's 25-38 generations. Nope. I don't think that's fast enough, is it?
Alright, what if the belltower system was that stages 2-6 could immediately get put on the belltower after the first stage. That's a little more than hours. So, 20-30 generations maybe for belltowers to get up. Which I think seems like just enough time.
Any thoughts on that concept Jony?

I think the bell towers will be used to obtain cities with different types of races ... but it will not generate trade

I also think the griefers will take advantage of this ...

The work of the merchant must be a task for a player and we cannot depend on a campaign to trade with an item

There must be one (or several) people dedicated to trade,
the cities have a lot of disorder and if the figure of the merchant and the trading post does not exist, there will be no trade

I see the whole work of commerce as a task for 2 or 3 people and a place dedicated to trade

1.- the explorer: look for distant families and valuable resources for the city, also draw a map with all locations, also be responsible for transmitting it to future generations or family

2.- the merchant: Thanks to the map generated by the explorer, it transports the objects to the foreign family and exchanges it for others that are needed

3.- The translator: help the merchant or the explorer to talk with the foreign family

The trade must be done in a place enabled and prepared for this, this place must provide security for change and tranquility to be properly understood

In the story I have explained before, I have shown several problems with trade:

1.- Trade needs are only known to players who try to create objects such as engines or advanced tools
"Unfortunately" the game is full of new players who do not visualize the real problems, nor the real needs of the cities, this forces the merchant to have high experience in the game (forces 2 tasks in 1) and we do not have enough boxes of skills for 2 tasks.

2.- It is very difficult to communicate with your relatives to perform any cooperative task

3.- the coexistence with the griefers will always exist and that makes daily tasks difficult

4.- you need to create many things to trade correctly, but there is not enough time

5.- The maps must be agile and simple to create and use, because an explorer must find families and resources quickly and must be able to return to his hometown, he must also be able to create paper with the necessary translations to be understood.

The people of this forum are people with experience in OHOL, I ask everyone to try the experience of looking for another family and try to get rubber, sulfur, etc ... and to verify the problems they encounter to perform this task

If we want to promote trade, we must exolle Jason that he must simplify this process so that it is carried out naturally

Spoonwood · 2019-11-21 17:27:47

Legs wrote:

I think so far this update has proved everyone's worries that getting early game rubber for a newcomen pump will be impossible. Before the steam sale only a couple of towns managed to make it work, notably the four families mega city. Even then having four families in one place presents its own problem of overpopulation.

Newcomen pumps, kerosone pumps, diesel water pumps, cars, planes, radios, forging gold, and more. Useful or useless, how much content does this update appear to have effectively made dead? That's several updates... probably more like a few months of things that might seem like teasers to new players now.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-11-21 17:29:10)

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-21 17:34:48

Jony, I hear you that it was frustrating, but that "story" sounds like an excellent one to me. It's supposed to be very very hard. You had to think on your feet, and you ended up failing, in the end. Success doesn't taste sweet if there aren't failures along the way. And most importantly, you had to interact with a bunch of people in order to solve this puzzle. Some of them didn't cooperate.

This doesn't feel all that different from a quest in Zelda, where you have to go to see this guy to get a chicken, but he won't give you a chicken unless you first bring him some milk, but the dairy farmer is sick and needs medicine. The difference here is that no one authored the quest. It emerged naturally from the situation. Another big difference is that every quest in Zelda can be easily solved if you just keep playing. Here, there's no guarantee that a solution is even possible, currently. These aren't hand-designed NPCs that will always cooperate with you. They are real people. You might bring the dairy farmer medicine, and find that they have changed their mind, or that they have died.

Essentially, here's what this game is: A collective roguelike.

By "collective," I mean that the "player" playing the game isn't an individual person, but a whole group of people working together and spread over many hours and generations.

The "player" in this game is a village or family line. The death or failure condition is when the village or family line dies out. The village is the organism.

It works this way because "death" of an individual player always happens on a fixed time-line. A life is a life. Surviving to 60, after you get the hang of it, is almost always possible. However, surviving to 60 in isolation is pointless. The point comes from the survival of the group.

If the group survives 12 hours or 24 hours or 48 hours, that's a really big deal, and a big success. That is the equivalent to making it to the last level in Spelunky or some other roguelike.

And your own individual failure doesn't mean your village failed in the end. There will be other smart, motivated players who will continue trying to solve the problem you tried to solve.

And I'm sure you learned something from this experience, so next time, you will be even better at it. And when you finally save your town by making a rubber gasket someday, it will feel amazing.

To look at it another way, saving the town with a Newcomen pump is an expert activity. It should be very challenging for experts. Previously, any expert would just "go through the motions" and make the pump. After making one pump, they could make 100s of pumps in future lives, with no issue. That is boring. Going through the motions isn't even really playing a game. That's the reason expert players get bored and quit, because the challenge is gone.

The challenge is back.

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-21 17:43:45

Here's the commit that made the bell tower so slow to build:

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLifeD … 2350413726

I can shorten that part to 5 hours, and then shorten the other layers a bit.

My idea with Way Stones is NOT for explorers to place them.

Instead, I expect towns to place them, to help other people find them.

Imagine this:

You get a town established, and you have a chisel and paper maps.

You walk out 100 tiles to the N, S, E, and W, and put way stones in those four places, pointing back to your town.

This raises the chance of some other family finding your town by 5x

The more way stones you plant, the higher the chances that someone will find you.

Furthermore, as explorers from your town venture out with blank maps to find other towns, they can make maps of those places, then return home and make a "bank" of way stones in the center of town, permanently pointing to important places nearby.

Outsiders people visiting your town can check out your way stone bank and learn of other towns they didn't know about yet.

They can copy your way stones onto blank maps, and make waystones themselves back in their own town. And thus, knowledge of what's around can spread.

In my last life, I found an amazing abandoned town about 200 tiles south of our town. It was full of valuable stuff. I could only carry so much, and I died before I made it back there for more stuff.

But if I had made a map, I could have planted a way stone in our town, pointing to this resource trove, and future generations could have used it.

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-21 17:47:18

Way stone makers kit:

--1 cart with 4 blocks

--Backpack with:

----Map back to town
----Chisel
----Mallet

This allows you to head out and plant four way stones pointing back to your town.

Fill another cart with blocks and repeat.

In one lifetime, you could easily plant dozens of way stones pointing back to your town, making your town impossible NOT to find.

JonySky · 2019-11-21 18:00:00

jasonrohrer wrote:

Way stone makers kit:
--1 cart with 4 blocks
--Backpack with:
----Map back to town
----Chisel
----Mallet
This allows you to head out and plant four way stones pointing back to your town.
Fill another cart with blocks and repeat.
In one lifetime, you could easily plant dozens of way stones pointing back to your town, making your town impossible NOT to find.

Keep in mind that in your city you should have: horses, carriage, chisel and mallet, paper, pencil.
My experience tells me that you can start putting stones at age 35 (leaving your city, not putting stones)
You will have 25 years (25 minutes) to locate another family with resources, place the information on the map and on the stone, you must return to your hometown and inform your family members of everything (which surely will not listen or interest you)

jasonrohrer · 2019-11-21 18:11:31

I just tested this.

My kit:

--Hand cart
--Shovel
--Wolf Hat
--Mouflon Hide
--Backpack
--Pie
--Map back to my town
--Chisel
--Mallet

First, go out with the cart and dig/chisel four stone blocks. Put them in the cart. Then walk 100 tiles out in each cardinal direction and make a way stone.

Starting age: 14
Total way stones place: 4
Total time to complete: 11 minutes
Total food consumed: 1/2 pie

This is no harder than building roads, and there are roads everywhere. I imagine there will be way stones everywhere.

And one way stone provides as much information as hundreds of road tiles.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-11-21 07:08:57

Coming soon: way stones

#2 2019-11-21 07:35:32

Re: Coming soon: way stones

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