The woes of auto-aim.

fug · 2019-09-20 16:43:27

The pvp system is definitely worse off ever since changing the system from clicking on someone or their tile to the current system of being able to issue the murder command from both tiles away + having some many tiles to click from. I think this sort of thing is fine on something like a knife as it makes sense to stab someone when you get the chance (even if first growl is a dumb system imo.)

However, the bow ABSOLUTELY should not have the auto-aim feature on it. Just today I had Ziv walk onto my screen before the game updated what he was wearing/holding until he had already shot me. Seeing a naked eve run near me isn't something I normally fear but the bow didn't appear until he stopped moving and proceeded to hit me. I'd post the playback video but the thing crashes every time at .5% so I can't load the playback to record exactly what happened.

"Naked Eve" appears
Runs onto my screen
Suddenly I'm shot with a bow I didn't see until the bow is fired resulting on me getting shot by something I didn't even know he had
Boom. Bad time.

Kill commands shouldn't be issued outside of their kill range (3 tiles away from someone with a bow or one tile away with a knife/sword) so that things are actually loaded. It's a little ridiculous that you can actually hide a weapon like that due to the game not loading a player like that.

Also yadda yadda skill.

DiscardedSlinky · 2019-09-20 21:44:43

Just shrink bow auto aim to be just the 9 tiles around you or something and it will be fine.

Tarr said the current auto aim for bows is 42 tiles which is crazy

sigmen4020 · 2019-09-20 21:54:39

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

Just shrink bow auto aim to be just the 9 tiles around you or something and it will be fine.
Tarr said the current auto aim for bows is 42 tiles which is crazy

Isn't fug Tarr?

arkajalka · 2019-09-20 22:04:14

Whole auto aim thing sucks big time imo. I just got auto aim tagged at village with knife wielding kid. Had high yum and started running, but for some reason this dude speedhacked and was able to catch me. Eventually kills whole fams girls.

Could have outrunned him with my high yum ez, but for some reason he got some speed boost. Maybe its a connection thing or something. This game has literally every hack that usual fps have, aim bot is delivered by core game, wallhacks, speedboost etc

360 no scope = make a circle with mouse shift + click anything

One click, speed boost... Yay skill...

Whole pvp system is unbalanced, leans towards angry kids with father issues rather than actual skill.

fug · 2019-09-21 00:46:00

Just to put pvp into perspective:

How far away you can be from someone and trigger the kill command (You can stand on that furthest right snowball and issue the kill command aka start growling.)

How many tiles around a player trigger kill command with iron being kill zone, limestone being can just click and enter attack mode. (Maple tree is in the attack zone, was just being lazy and didn't cut it down.)

With a bow you have 52 different tiles you can click with 35 being tiles that will walk you in range of shooting someone. This of course isn't addressing the original problem which was someone issuing a kill command from a range far enough to not be loaded by the game client which means the attacker ran up "naked" but when was in range automatically shot as the client loaded them fully once they stopped due to the kill command going off.

Last edited by fug (2019-09-21 00:50:12)

DestinyCall · 2019-09-21 01:15:45

Now repeat these screenshots using standard zoom to show how screwed normal players will be ...

fug · 2019-09-21 02:11:36

What the normal client sees vs how far someone can attack you from:

What normal client sees in all attack tiles vs someone zoomed:

Kill command range should be moved from 7 to 4. You can still snipe someone off screen with zoom by attacking either through the top or bottom of the screen but someone with the base client could see their attacker from left or right. It doesn't make sense for the kill command to be usable outside of the base clients view as it only gives a distinct advantage to players with a zoom mod. While the second set of images might look fair you need to remember these are just tiles you can click to auto attack around the person and not the range in which you need to be to attack.

Someone can go out to the maximum range, click one of these shown tiles and move in for the kill. Auto aim has always been a dumb feature on the bow without a doubt and as I've said before should just be returned to the previous state where the arrow would only fire on a successful kill message being sent out instead of being deleted.

TL;DR: Lower kill command input range from 7 to 4, potentially remove auto-aim.

Saolin · 2019-09-21 03:43:04

Great job "fug". I was going to +1 to DestinyCall and Arkajalka, but your response to DestinyCall's request perfectly describes the issue. Seems strange the way this works.

DestinyCall · 2019-09-21 03:51:28

Beautifully illustrated. Thank you for going the effort to make these.

fug · 2019-09-21 04:50:01

Saolin wrote:

Great job "fug". I was going to +1 to DestinyCall and Arkajalka, but your response to DestinyCall's request perfectly describes the issue. Seems strange the way this works.

The range is 7 due to him limiting how far away you can be from a target. Before that change you used to be able to enter the kill command from any distance (combine this with the wide area and it was even worse than what we have now.)

Tomorrow I might try to make a small clip to help illustrate the issue further as the bows range looks absolutely ridiculous when compared to a knife/sword which only has 9 clickable attack tiles vs the 52 or so different tiles you can click with the bow(but still shares the 7 tile range away from the intended target.)

Whatever · 2019-09-21 05:12:09

Make it so the last person who growls always wins, instead of the first person.

sigmen4020 · 2019-09-21 08:07:00

Whatever wrote:

Make it so the last person who growls always wins, instead of the first person.

Agree, suggested the same thing here:
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7793

Dodge · 2019-09-21 08:54:24

Yeah i agree the zoom mod really fucks up the game.

Booklat1 · 2019-09-21 14:12:41

Whatever wrote:

Make it so the last person who growls always wins, instead of the first person.

It can't be a 100% chance, that's completely game breaking in the sense that there is not a game when there is only one result. it should be 50/50.

But honestly, the previous system was indeed better. While it did demand skill to defend yourself it also took skill to genocide/assassinate people.

fug · 2019-09-21 20:39:12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4emkCe … e=youtu.be

Small explanation video. Kill command has 7 standard tiles it can be issued from with an extended three if you shoot someone by clicking their furthest away kill tile. A player has a small grid around themselves which helps determine things like heat which I assume is the same tile space used to determine kill tiles. Because of how the player grid works you have more kill tiles above a player than you do below (up to four tiles above the player model, and three tiles lower which is the same way the heat grid works.)

Auto-aim negatively effects the game due to the large amount of clickable tiles to attack someone because with a zoom client vs normal client you will be attacked from upwards to nearly two screens away (going left to right, or up and down nearly three screens away.) Of course the bow is biggest issue with such a large kill grid to click, the sword/knife only have 9 tiles to click (the attack range is a 3x3 with the player being the center piece.)

As with the murder videos I hope this explains the problem and shows why this is bad for the game.

Dodge · 2019-09-23 07:25:30

This could solve the issue with bow and auto aim random killing in general

fug wrote:

...

PVP system was changed because before you could avoid getting killed even on a cooldown by using lag and or buggy movement on tiles, so it was basically exploitable by the few that knew how to exploit it.

Also a griefer could avoid getting killed just by clicking everywhere on screen to move all the time, so someone one tile close to you could still avoid getting stabbed somehow.

Sure auto aim is not perfect but asking to revert the change is not going to happen.

If you want to improve the current PVP system it has to be done on the basis of how it works currently and not revert back to a system that was made to adress issues in the first place.

Like for example maybe there should be a delay between murder mouth and the actual ability to kill someone, so you could hear in advance the murder mouth and have some time to run away so you dont get killed out of the blue.

And also maybe you could somehow know if it's you that is being targetted specifically, you could call it the "death stare", if someone is targetting you, you get scared as a visible emotion.

With these two changes you could know slightly in advance if someone is attempting murder and also you would know if it's you that is targetted so you could have a few seconds to run away instead of just getting randomly killed.

Correct me if i'm wrong but i get the impression that the real issue is getting randomly killed out of nowhere without having any chance to do anything about it.

So if you had a chance to run away and then prepare to counter attack it wouldn't be so much of an issue.

Maybe the emotion of fear could be visible as long as you are targetted, so you would know when you arent targetted anymore even from off screen and could attempt a counter attack.

Making it basically a chasing game with the ability to hit back if you target him first once he has done targetting you, which you would be aware of when you're not visibly scared anymore.

So in the end the person that plays more strategically and can react the fastest would win as opposed to currently where it's basically the first person that wins if he prepares it in advance and uses zoom.

Last edited by Dodge (2019-09-23 07:25:56)

fug · 2019-09-23 09:15:06

Dodge wrote:

Correct me if i'm wrong but i get the impression that the real issue is getting randomly killed out of nowhere without having any chance to do anything about it.

The main issue is the fact you are able to attack someone from such a range that is possible for the player to not be loaded upon another players client. This makes it possible for someone to appear nonthreatening in the first place (which makes both the growl feature or any sound feature in general) completely useless as until they do their next input they'll be completely friendly looking then boom. You're stabbed/shot as the kill command goes off when they come to a stop.

This can be seen in one of Twisted videos or in general when a player comes from off screen (things such as what looks like speed hacks when an unloaded horse is being ridden by a player, or players showing up as babies suddenly being poofed into an adult form.) So regardless if you want a delay or not none of these things would help in the first place.

Dodge wrote:

So if you had a chance to run away and then prepare to counter attack it wouldn't be so much of an issue.
Maybe the emotion of fear could be visible as long as you are targetted, so you would know when you arent targetted anymore even from off screen and could attempt a counter attack.
Making it basically a chasing game with the ability to hit back if you target him first once he has done targetting you, which you would be aware of when you're not visibly scared anymore.
So in the end the person that plays more strategically and can react the fastest would win as opposed to currently where it's basically the first person that wins if he prepares it in advance and uses zoom.

Emotes, sounds, or anything else is absolutely useless when the attacking player is basically stealthed which the actual root of this problem. The exact issue at hand can be seen discussed here:

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7564

Morti has another player on horse (the black Eve) who is not loaded properly running around looking like she is speed hacking when in fact she's actually also riding a horse around. Instead of a horse like in his example we have a player with a loaded weapon shooting someone from such a range off screen that they are always appearing as a naked Eve.

This is a side effect of having the attack range being so large that you can attack someone from two screens away from a northern/southern part where on the right and left sides of the screens you can only attack a few units further than the default FoV.

So the main complaint:

Due to the ridiculous range of the kill command input it is possible to attack someone while unloaded for the player being attacked. This means no audio cues or visible cues are given to the player attacked. This is caused due to the how far away you can attack someone with and should be remedied by moving the kill command size from 7 (this is two screens away from the north/south side of a screen and 1.5 screens away from the left or right side) down to four (this is within view from the left/right side of the screen while still only being slightly off the north/south side.)

The second complaint is the issue being the combat system is inferior to the previous system in almost every way possible. Due to the unbalanced nature of combat now you have one player with 900 kills in a 3-4 month period which last I checked is more kills than both of Pein's accounts over a year and even worse a second player with 1600 kills.

With the only defense in the game to an attack being to play with you zoom to max (which the game should not be designed around) and running away from someone attacking you have a much greater imbalance than the previous system. The old system punished someone for not learning to defend themselves while the new system punishes the player for not using a modded client which is honestly a worse fuck up on Jason part more than anything.

Last edited by fug (2019-09-23 09:16:46)

Dodge · 2019-09-23 09:19:42

fug wrote:

Emotes, sounds, or anything else is absolutely useless when the attacking player is basically stealthed which the actual root of this problem.

But if they make sound and you can visibly know when you are targetted+you have some time to react before the killing action actually triggers then they are not stealthed anymore.... that's the whole point.

fug · 2019-09-23 09:30:30

Dodge wrote:

fug wrote:
Emotes, sounds, or anything else is absolutely useless when the attacking player is basically stealthed which the actual root of this problem.
But if they make sound and you can visibly know when you are targetted+you have some time to react before the killing action actually triggers then they are not stealthed anymore.... that's the whole point.

But if they're not loaded you won't get a sound. If I input a kill command from off your screen where I am not loaded you do not get an audio cue which is the whole reason this thread was made.

If I attack you from a range you do not load me from you will see a naked Eve walk up to you and the player updates once the next command is issued.

So lets explain this slowly for you.

Far away player uses kill command on you ------- You will see a naked player walk towards you
Far away player autowalks towards you --------- You are seeing a naked player walk towards you
Player walks within range of the input ---------- You see the naked player reach their autowalk destination
Once in range to attack, attacks. ---------- Suddenly naked player updates to have a bloody bow + is now wearing clothes.

This exact thing can be seen with horses a lot in game where a player is zooming around until eventually the horse loads when they get close enough to you but instead of a harmless dude zooming around its someone shooting you in the face.

Dodge · 2019-09-23 09:39:30

fug wrote:

Dodge wrote:
fug wrote:
Emotes, sounds, or anything else is absolutely useless when the attacking player is basically stealthed which the actual root of this problem.
But if they make sound and you can visibly know when you are targetted+you have some time to react before the killing action actually triggers then they are not stealthed anymore.... that's the whole point.
But if they're not loaded you won't get a sound. If I input a kill command from off your screen where I am not loaded you do not get an audio cue which is the whole reason this thread was made.
If I attack you from a range you do not load me from you will see a naked Eve walk up to you and the player updates once the next command is issued.
So lets explain this slowly for you.
Far away player uses kill command on you ------- You will see a naked player walk towards you
Far away player autowalks towards you --------- You are seeing a naked player walk towards you
Player walks within range of the input ---------- You see the naked player reach their autowalk destination
Once in range to attack, attacks. ---------- Suddenly naked player updates to have a bloody bow + is now wearing clothes.
This exact thing can be seen with horses a lot in game where a player is zooming around until eventually the horse loads when they get close enough to you but instead of a harmless dude zooming around its someone shooting you in the face.

I mean i've seen it a couple of times but it's more on the rare side and it sounds more like a server/game performance issue more than a problem with game mechanics.

Also depending on the delay that would be added between initiating the kill command+making the sound+getting the visible notification and the moment when you can actually perform the killing action, the sound and emote would already be loaded and you would still have a couple of seconds to run away.

fug wrote:

So lets explain this slowly for you.

Always a pleasure talking to you...

miskas · 2019-09-23 09:45:11

So bow range is 10 tiles while horizontal view range is 5 tiles.
The vertical view range is 3. Is killing range on the vertical axis also 10 though?

CatX · 2019-09-23 09:50:50

fug wrote:

So lets explain this slowly for you.

I for one do appreciate the slow explanations.

fug wrote:

Far away player uses kill command on you ------- You will see a naked player walk towards you
Far away player autowalks towards you --------- You are seeing a naked player walk towards you
Player walks within range of the input ---------- You see the naked player reach their autowalk destination
Once in range to attack, attacks. ---------- Suddenly naked player updates to have a bloody bow + is now wearing clothes.

Ok, so here's the question:

If the game is able to show me a naked player in step one "Far away player uses kill command on you" - then something is loaded, right? Or I wouldn't even see a naked player.

So why can't the sound play as well...?

Would it be possible to prevent killing until the client confirms that everything is loaded? Or would that enable client side hacks?

fug · 2019-09-23 09:55:31

miskas wrote:

So bow range is 10 tiles while horizontal view range is 5 tiles.
The vertical view range is 3. Is killing range on the vertical axis also 10 though?

Yes and no. The range is always going to be 10 in case of attacking from left, right, north. South side has an additional tile due to how the grid around the player works (this is the same way for the players heat grid.)

From the maximum range of 7 you can click an additional three tiles behind the target if attacking the player from the north side OR you can click an additional four tiles instead of coming from someones south side. Both left and right sides functional the same when bow range is accounted (you can only attack a player three tiles further behind them from left or right side.)

Refer to the limestone/iron picture to see the extra attackable tiles. North side of the baby is extra tiles you can click when attacking someone from the south.

CatX wrote:

Ok, so here's the question:
If the game is able to show me a naked player in step one "Far away player uses kill command on you" - then something is loaded, right? Or I wouldn't even see a naked player.
So why can't the sound play as well...?
Would it be possible to prevent killing until the client confirms that everything is loaded? Or would that enable client side hacks?

Have you ever seen the issue where a player is walking with one item in their hand but it suddenly changes to another item when you get closer? This is what is occurring during this exact moment and situation.

You load the player moving around but haven't fulled loaded them. (Example: You can load players but not what they're wearing so this is why you see people zooming around on a horse, babies who poof into adults, or players holding an item which then turns into another item.)

So on a base level they're loaded but what they're holding isn't. This means when inputting a kill command you'll just see them walk over to you and once they get within range of the attack the bow will suddenly load as they come to a stop (which is when the kill command goes through.)

Why does the game not load stuff properly? I have no idea but people others can attest to these issues occurring in game (especially items switching in players hands and invisible horses.)

Last edited by fug (2019-09-23 10:05:55)

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-09-20 16:43:27

The woes of auto-aim.

#2 2019-09-20 21:44:43

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#3 2019-09-20 21:54:39

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#4 2019-09-20 22:04:14

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#5 2019-09-21 00:46:00

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#6 2019-09-21 01:15:45

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#7 2019-09-21 02:11:36

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#8 2019-09-21 03:43:04

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#9 2019-09-21 03:51:28

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#10 2019-09-21 04:50:01

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#11 2019-09-21 05:12:09

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#12 2019-09-21 08:07:00

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#13 2019-09-21 08:54:24

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#14 2019-09-21 14:12:41

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#15 2019-09-21 20:39:12

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#16 2019-09-23 07:25:30

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#17 2019-09-23 09:15:06

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#18 2019-09-23 09:19:42

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#19 2019-09-23 09:30:30

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#20 2019-09-23 09:39:30

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#21 2019-09-23 09:45:11

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#22 2019-09-23 09:50:50

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

#23 2019-09-23 09:55:31

Re: The woes of auto-aim.

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