Everyone Complains about greiving but nothings being Done.

Dodge · 2019-08-20 22:22:11

jasonrohrer wrote:

Dodge, you are talking about the difference between natural resource griefing and human-made-resource griefing.
Property rights can only protect the second kind of resource. And they do so, generally, in other games too (Rust's tool cabinets protect your stash, but they don't protect the trees and mineral nodes, unless you build a VERY big fort/wall around a huge area).
A game like Rust solves this problem by making natural resources respawn endlessly and quickly. But this is part of the reason why player interaction in Rust isn't very interesting or complex. It's essentially a single-player grinding game where the only interaction is PVP to steal another player's grind. There is no reason to trade natural resources. Just go out in the wilderness and grind out as much as you need.
Furthermore, in Rust, aside from PVP, there really is no survival pressure. You don't NEED to farm.... not really.

I think OHOL is more interesting in this regard. Resources run out, so even an early Eve camp is on a pretty tense timeline, with failure lurking right around the corner. Thus, we MUST work together to get things up and running before it's too late.
In general, I want the long-term arc in the game to feel like that. In the Eve camp, it happens over about 30 minutes. I want the long arc to happen over 4-5 days.
And I can't see how it can happen without natural resources running out.
And if natural resources run out.... well... they can generally be griefed, right?

I wasn't reffering to Rust, what im saying is if one person can do as much damage as the entire server is needed to repair it then we have an issue.

One single person can cut all the junipers very easily and effortlessly , do you know how much time/person would be needed to replant all these trees?

"And I can't see how it can happen without natural resources running out."

running out does not equal being grieffed, you cant count griefing as a normal part to take account of when managing ressourrces.

IRL do we worry about one single person cutting out all the important trees on the planet?

No, it wouldn't make any sense, for multiple reasons.

I'm all about having limited ressources and even limited capabilites so we need to cooperate, communicate and have actions be more meaningful and interesting.

But if the factor for limited ressources is griefing and the solution is locking everything behind private property then it's not interesting.

It makes it a game of Regular players VS Griefers instead of Players trying to cooperate to build a civilisations with a challenging ammount of ressources and maybe limited individual abilities and griefing being a side element that has to be dealt with from time to time.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-20 22:30:40

Yes, that's a good idea, and I may end up doing something like that eventually.

However, it's a pretty deep change. I could do parts of it with the existing editor and engine with quite a bit of manual fiddling (like setting up long-term transitions for milkweed to respawn or whatever), but to have things actually change over time would be non-trivial. Like, milkweed respawns at this rate today and then that other rate (or stops respawning) tomorrow? Hmm....

Thematically, I also do like human impact on resources. That means we can manage them better and get better at the game collectively, which I think is really cool and interesting. It's like we're creating our own winter, eventually.

Finally, it would feel a little weird to me to have something winter-like in the game without the game looking like winter. I think Don't Starve actually does this (snow falls eventually) but obviously, this is a metric ton of extra work for me, and probably beyond the scope of what's possible. And it's also a really odd fit for the 1 year = 1 minute model. I guess we're talking thematically about an ice age or a drought or something.

Still, I'm not sure how "winter" would cause oil or iron to run out....

One thing that IS available in the engine is a speed-tweak parameter, which can control how quickly time passes in the game globally. Actually, there are two parameters, one for people, and one for everything else.

So it's pretty easy to have time slow down for all transitions. Milkweed blooms slower, crops grow slower, fires burn out slower, pumps take longer to finish, etc. We could potentially have "slow times" and "fast times." It would be pretty hard to survive through the very slow times (because food production would slow down). Of course, the fact that it affects everything equally (including fires) is pretty weird.

The other thing that's possible is to vary the "eating bonus" for each mouthful eaten (currently 2, but could go up or down, and maybe even go negative). I could also vary the hunger rate over time, so that people in general burn food more slowly or more quickly as time wears on.

With these things, I essentially have a "difficulty" lever that I can pull to adjust the game. This could change over time easily.

HOWEVER.... "game gets harder at end" isn't really my goal. I want game to be DIFFERENT at end, or along the way.

Thaulos · 2019-08-20 22:45:53

I wouldn't mind having everything, including hunger rate, slowing down a bit. You usually have to choose between socializing and working. If there was more "dead time" between actions it could potentially increase society interaction between players.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-08-20 22:46:43)

Dodge · 2019-08-21 05:46:08

Thaulos wrote:

I wouldn't mind having everything, including hunger rate, slowing down a bit. You usually have to choose between socializing and working. If there was more "dead time" between actions it could potentially increase society interaction between players.

+1 the game is a little too fast paced in general

arkajalka · 2019-08-21 15:04:46

Warswords are retardedly good at killing whole towns.

Theres simply one option to prevent that and that is property fence and with property fences you get locked in cause people just dont pass the rights or you end up wasting 1/6 of your whole life just asking to get rights.

There seriously needs to be someway to counterplay this. Shields armor, dueling... Anything.

The whole game is all about murdering and grieffing at the moment. No point in trying to build anything, just join the murder squad and swing the swords.

Saolin · 2019-08-21 17:45:59

I believe the problem is the discrepancy between the amount of work needed to accomplish a constructive task, and the amount of work needed to set back or permanently ruin said constructive task.

In general it takes a lot more time in game to do something constructive than to ruin that same thing. This enables a dedicated griefer to do a lot of damage and ruin potentially multiple people's entire lives worth of work in a single lifetime. It magnifies the problem and makes it seem like griefers are a majority at times. Taking steps to reduce the negative impact one person can have would help with this. For example, occasional respawning milkweed disincentivizes a griefer from picking all milkweed. Allowing a Newcomen tower to be easily deconstructed disincentivizes blocking entrances with a tower, etc.

Last edited by Saolin (2019-08-21 17:47:13)

CatX · 2019-08-21 18:04:40

Saolin wrote:

I believe the problem is the discrepancy between the amount of work needed to accomplish a constructive task, and the amount of work needed to set back or permanently ruin said constructive task.
In general it takes a lot more time in game to do something constructive than to ruin that same thing. This enables a dedicated griefer to do a lot of damage and ruin potentially multiple people's entire lives worth of work in a single lifetime. It magnifies the problem and makes it seem like griefers are a majority at times. Taking steps to reduce the negative impact one person can have would help with this. For example, occasional respawning milkweed disincentivizes a griefer from picking all milkweed. Allowing a Newcomen tower to be easily deconstructed disincentivizes blocking entrances with a tower, etc.

+1

One Hour One Life Forums

#26 2019-08-20 22:22:11

Re: Everyone Complains about greiving but nothings being Done.

#27 2019-08-20 22:30:40

Re: Everyone Complains about greiving but nothings being Done.

#28 2019-08-20 22:45:53

Re: Everyone Complains about greiving but nothings being Done.

#29 2019-08-21 05:46:08

Re: Everyone Complains about greiving but nothings being Done.

#30 2019-08-21 15:04:46

Re: Everyone Complains about greiving but nothings being Done.

#31 2019-08-21 17:45:59

Re: Everyone Complains about greiving but nothings being Done.

#32 2019-08-21 18:04:40

Re: Everyone Complains about greiving but nothings being Done.

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